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Old 2013-02-24, 22:34   Link #3641
larethian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
okay, I said in the initial response to Kudryavka's question that adjectives with the base form "-ii" do not take "-na".

Now in Japanese there are a variety of kana that represent some consonant or consonant cluster with the final "-i" sound, i.e "ki", "shi", "chi", "ni" etc.

When I say that the consonant does not matter, I mean that what is essential is the doubled "ii" sound, not the "k-", "sh-" or whatever.
So in "yasashii", even though it is written in kana "ya-sa-shi-i" (can't type kana on this computer, sorry), there still exists the "-ii" final sounds.

In "kirei", written "ki-re-i", there is no doubled "i" sound because there is only ONE "i". If it was "ki-ri-i" then you would be correct.
I agree with what you said in bold, that '-ii' sounds don't take 'na' during conjugation with nouns, but it doesn't mean that it has to be '-ii' to not take 'na' during conjugation with nouns, which was what I understood from your earlier post and other points.

To phrase it another way, it sounds to me that you were saying that if it doesn't contain '-ii' sound, it will take 'na' during conjugation with nouns, which I know to be false. That's why I quoted 'osoi' as an example. I might have misunderstood your post and your meaning though, and apologize if that's the case.

Nevertheless, my 2 cents is that, determining conjugation rules from how words sound is not the proper way. And I'm curious as to what textbook uses this manner of teaching, as none of my textbooks, reference books, nor the language school I had attended taught me in this manner. The proper way is to learn what class of words does a word fall into, whether it's a noun, i-adjective, na-adjective, godan verb, ichidan verb etc. etc., and learn the conjugation rules for that class and their exceptions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JINNSK View Post
i of kirei(綺麗 in kanji) is from 麗(rei).It isn't an adj though the end is i.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
JINNSK gave the kanji 綺麗 for "kirei" and said that it is not an adjective. Actually it is in noun form ("beauty", I guess), but it can be made into an adjective simply by adding "-na" to it. As another example there is the word "zankoku" (cruel), written 残酷, which is also in "noun form" (cruelty), so it takes "-na" as well.
This is just another school of thought which classifies na-adjectives as adjectival nouns because they have similarities to 'behavior' of nouns. Another school of thought classifies them as nominal adjectives...... plain confusing if you ask me......
It's fine to see them as nouns if you want to (though I'm personally against that line of thought), but one must be careful to remember that they are not nouns in the truest sense, i.e. they cannot stand alone by themselves as a subject by taking the 'が' and 'は' particles.
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Old 2013-02-25, 01:49   Link #3642
LeoXiao
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Thanks for the informative response. My "-ii" theory has been further invalidated.

The explanation about "noun-adjectives" makes sense, as they are indeed not really used as nouns. So far I have noticed that all the "-na" adjectives mentioned are Sino-Japanese words, so maybe that is the rule.
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Old 2013-02-25, 08:59   Link #3643
Avatar of Dreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
The explanation about "noun-adjectives" makes sense, as they are indeed not really used as nouns. So far I have noticed that all the "-na" adjectives mentioned are Sino-Japanese words, so maybe that is the rule.
Sorry, that rule doesn't work either(静かな、エッチな、いやな of the top of my head).

I'm not aware of any rule that separates the two types of adjectives. Usually you can tell just by looking though.
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Old 2013-02-25, 17:52   Link #3644
Alchemist007
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There are exceptions to damn near any rule, and not just in languages!
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Old 2013-02-25, 18:04   Link #3645
taurosground
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Newbie to Japanese here: Are there any sites/other places that you would recommend to an English speaker? Preferably free, thanks
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Old 2013-02-25, 19:36   Link #3646
Alchemist007
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These are resources I could recommend to any level learner (chances are you'd start as an intermediate since it's kanji stuff). I recommend this to get some pronunciations of words you don't know (basically a kanji -> romanji converter): http://nihongo.j-talk.com/

Also you can enter kanji at the end of this url to get the wiki page on it if one exists: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/代

Just replace the 代.

Here's a list of common kanji: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_stroke_count

And of course google translate: http://translate.google.com/#ja|en

I'd be wary of that because it's easy for that thing to misunderstand too, so it's more of a helper than an actual translator.
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Old 2013-03-14, 07:24   Link #3647
Kimidori
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classes stared later than expected but after 3 session, I'm now learned all the hiragana.

one thing I have to ask though: in the book I have, they translate "yashashii" (やさしい) as "easy", when I ask my teacher and she said it just mean "easy". but in anime, I often hear character use that word as "kind (ex: you're so kind)". are they just sound the same with different writing or something?

also, I surprised that she never heard of anime so I shown her ep 1 of "ef - a tale of memories". she really liked it and ask me if I can get japanese sub for it. anyone here know where to download a japanese sub track for the anime?
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Old 2013-03-14, 07:27   Link #3648
erneiz_hyde
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It's similar with English's "Hard" I guess.

English isn't my first language, but I learned it quite early through games. So when in a class, I answered "Hard" instead of "Difficult" for what's the opposite of "Easy".

edit: btw, it's apparently a case of different word indeed: 易しい and 優しい. The latter is what you usually hear of "kind". The former indeed means "easy".
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Old 2013-03-14, 11:30   Link #3649
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
edit: btw, it's apparently a case of different word indeed: 易しい and 優しい. The latter is what you usually hear of "kind". The former indeed means "easy".
The kanji of "yasashii" are actually used rather rarely. Often you see the word in hiragana.

So it's probably most useful to treat it as one word with double meanings depending on context. English, too, have quite a few words like that.

/unless of course it shows kanji. Then you know the intended meaning.
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Old 2013-05-06, 23:46   Link #3650
Kimidori
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anyone here have any tip or trick to read hiragana faster beside read more? my reading speed is pathetically slow right now. @_@
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Old 2013-05-07, 00:05   Link #3651
AmeNoJaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
anyone here have any tip or trick to read hiragana faster beside read more? my reading speed is pathetically slow right now. @_@
Read kanji faster Now seriously don't worry about it, the "read more" tip will inevitably happen as long as you continue learning the language.
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Old 2013-05-07, 02:12   Link #3652
Tougarashi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
anyone here have any tip or trick to read hiragana faster beside read more? my reading speed is pathetically slow right now. @_@
For me, I let my friend who can read well to read aloud for me first. Then I followed and read with the pace she read.
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Old 2013-05-07, 13:17   Link #3653
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
classes stared later than expected but after 3 session, I'm now learned all the hiragana.

one thing I have to ask though: in the book I have, they translate "yashashii" (やさしい) as "easy", when I ask my teacher and she said it just mean "easy". but in anime, I often hear character use that word as "kind (ex: you're so kind)". are they just sound the same with different writing or something?

also, I surprised that she never heard of anime so I shown her ep 1 of "ef - a tale of memories". she really liked it and ask me if I can get japanese sub for it. anyone here know where to download a japanese sub track for the anime?
The yasashii for easy and the yasashii for gentle are not pronounced exactly the same (probably.. i haven't found out on this one specifically). Another good example of this is hashi (bridge) / hashi (chopsticks). If you think about it, Japanese is extremely limited in the sounds the language provides, so this happens quite a bit.

EDIT:

I just went on denshi jisho to see if they had pronunciations, and apparently, yasashii hito is an expression for a promiscuous person (using the 'easy' yasashii). Makes sense, but hadn't heard of that one before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
anyone here have any tip or trick to read hiragana faster beside read more? my reading speed is pathetically slow right now. @_@
Theres still Katakana to go (which is way more irritating, at least for me) before Kanji. In any case, reading speed also has a lot to do with your familiarity with the language and seeing words (or in this case Kanji.. though I guess there is more spacing between words in Japanese than before). While it is important, I don't think you should be too worried about reading speed, focusing on increasing your reading speed is something that you would do if you were lagging behind your peers in reading, or after you have a good enough grasp to be reading a lot.

Last edited by oompa loompa; 2013-05-07 at 13:33.
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Old 2013-05-09, 18:27   Link #3654
AmeNoJaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
The yasashii for easy and the yasashii for gentle are not pronounced exactly the same (probably.. i haven't found out on this one specifically). Another good example of this is hashi (bridge) / hashi (chopsticks). If you think about it, Japanese is extremely limited in the sounds the language provides, so this happens quite a bit.
Where did you hear that, I highly doubt that it is true. Was the source reliable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
I just went on denshi jisho to see if they had pronunciations, and apparently, yasashii hito is an expression for a promiscuous person (using the 'easy' yasashii). Makes sense, but hadn't heard of that one before.
Don't they use the same expression in English too? But yeah, sounding the same can lead to some "interesting" misunderstandings
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Old 2013-05-09, 18:37   Link #3655
Seitsuki
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易しい and 優しい are completely different things. Context.
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Old 2013-05-09, 22:21   Link #3656
Avatar of Dreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
I just went on denshi jisho to see if they had pronunciations, and apparently, yasashii hito is an expression for a promiscuous person (using the 'easy' yasashii). Makes sense, but hadn't heard of that one before.
I've never heard of yasashii being used that way ever. Maybe if you were to say it sarcastically you could imply that meaning...but 99% of the time everyone will just think you're saying that person is nice.

Ran a google search and could not find a single instance of it being used that way. It's either a obscure expression or that definition is unreliable.
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Old 2013-05-11, 04:32   Link #3657
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Dreams View Post
I've never heard of yasashii being used that way ever. Maybe if you were to say it sarcastically you could imply that meaning...but 99% of the time everyone will just think you're saying that person is nice.

Ran a google search and could not find a single instance of it being used that way. It's either a obscure expression or that definition is unreliable.
The source is denshi jisho. I said I got it from there in the original post. and I said I hadn't heard of it before either.. which is exactly why I qualified it as apparently having that meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
Where did you hear that, I highly doubt that it is true. Was the source reliable?
Hate to break it to you buddy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pitch_accent

" So the sequence "hashi" spoken in isolation can be accented in two ways, either háshi (accent on the first syllable, meaning 'chopsticks') or hashí (flat or accent on the second syllable, meaning either 'edge' or 'bridge'), while "hashi" plus the subject-marker "ga" can be accented on the first, second, or be flat/accentless: háshiga 'chopsticks', hashíga 'bridge', or hashigá 'edge'. "

If you were asking about Japanese being limited in its syllables.. I couldn't find a source on the first google page.. but, I'm pretty sure its true (from experience speaking, listening, and studying). I think there are about 80 unique sounds not counting some katakana-specific ones. Thats one of the reasons why punning is so great in Japanese

Last edited by oompa loompa; 2013-05-11 at 04:47.
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Old 2013-05-11, 12:12   Link #3658
Alchemist007
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I don't want to put any false information out there but I do recall hearing the 'easy person' (sexually) before, I think it depends on how the sentence is structured.
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Old 2013-05-11, 17:46   Link #3659
Malkuth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
Check also the Talk page of that article, as well as how sketchy its sources are... IMPE from living in their country and using their language; yes, there is different pitch in Japanese, but its less consistent with dialects and kanji meanings, than individuals and their mood... we had a similar discussion over おう versus おお last year, and I stand corrected... pronunciation differences are at best random... the fertile ground for phd tax-wasters
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Old 2013-05-11, 18:23   Link #3660
HoennSora
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I'm working on learning hiragana and I have a japanese version of Pokemon Sapphire which I'll work with to help learn better. I have begun weekly classes so that is something to look forward too
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