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Old 2013-05-03, 11:58   Link #21
Jan-Poo
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From the official site there are these images showing Avalon and explaining the functions of all of its parts.

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They've been on my hard disk for a while because I wanted to translate them first, but I got demoralized since the resolution is too low and that makes it hard to recognize the most difficult Kanji.

I've only got so far as getting from the first one "supermagnetic shield thrust reverser" but I miss a kanji.

Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Japanese can provide translations.
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Old 2013-05-06, 09:17   Link #22
duckroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
From the official site there are these images showing Avalon and explaining the functions of all of its parts.

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

They've been on my hard disk for a while because I wanted to translate them first, but I got demoralized since the resolution is too low and that makes it hard to recognize the most difficult Kanji.

I've only got so far as getting from the first one "supermagnetic shield thrust reverser" but I miss a kanji.

Maybe someone with a better knowledge of Japanese can provide translations.
Sorry, I forgot we have a tech thread too. Triple posting here too! >_<

About Avalon:

At the top of the structure is a Super Electromagenetic Shield which doubles as a Thrust Reverser, followed by Electromagnetic Shield Retention Rings holding it in place. Then there is a Ultra High Density Solid of Revolution with an Accretion Disc around it.

In the residential zone, there are two sets of 12 Revolving Residential Areas each. These are held in place with Residential Area Support Rings. "Filter Sails" are installed in the space between the residential areas and the plasma running through the center. The sails are made of a film which protects the residential areas from harmful radiation emitting from the plasma.

At the bottom of the structure are Power Control Rings followed by Plasma Acceleration Rings at the very bottom.
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Old 2013-05-06, 09:24   Link #23
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That really does look like they're hauling a small black hole around with them.

It occurs to me that if their tech level is such, that the need to find a habitable planet should not be so critical aside from the psychological benefit. And, well, more room to walk/fly around on.
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Old 2013-05-06, 09:34   Link #24
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Yeah I do agree that "Ultra High Density Solid of Revolution" seems to be their techspeak for "Artificial Black Hole". Maybe they felt that since Black Holes are named as such right now because we don't really know what they are, it would be more appropriate to use a general descriptive term for what the object actually is, since the people building such a structure would view it as such in practical terms instead of an unknown entity.
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Old 2013-05-06, 09:34   Link #25
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Sorry, I forgot we have a tech thread too. Triple posting here too! >_<

About Avalon:

At the top of the structure is a Super Electromagenetic Shield which doubles as a Thrust Reverser, followed by Electromagnetic Shield Retention Rings holding it in place. Then there is a Ultra High Density Solid of Revolution with an Accretion Disc around it.

In the residential zone, there are two sets of 12 Revolving Residential Areas each. These are held in place with Residential Area Support Rings. "Filter Sails" are installed in the space between the residential areas and the plasma running through the center. The sails are made of a film which protects the residential areas from harmful radiation emitting from the plasma.

At the bottom of the structure are Power Control Rings followed by Plasma Acceleration Rings at the very bottom.
Thank you Duckroll!


Certainly this whole technology is pretty hard to understand, and perhaps it isn't meant to be.

All that stuff actually exist, but the how it can exist in such configuration eludes me.

For example, what prevents the various parts of this colony from collapsing into that black hole?

How are those containment rings generated and by what?
Why thrust reversal? Why do you even need that?


Perhaps I'm wrong, but I have the feeling that this is mostly technobabble
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Old 2013-05-06, 09:44   Link #26
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It could be a fairly small black hole. Their structures would just have to be constructed at a reasonable distance. (Which, considering that fairly low-mass black holes are still going to generate gravitational forces on the scale of planetoids, is still a really big structure, considering how the "blades" seem to reach quite close to the singularity.)

Again, considering the other technology demonstrated, the gradual growth of their singularity may or may not be a big issue for them.
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Old 2013-05-06, 10:21   Link #27
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It's not all technobabble. Obviously it's not hard scifi since it takes a lot of liberties with how things work simply because technology is "advanced enough", but the SF designer on the series seems to know what he's talking about in the interview.

Basically Avalon is a colony ship. It's not a space station, but a moving emigrant ship. The super mass is indeed supposed to mimic a black hole, and the entire structure of the ship is based on the concept of relativistic jets. The accretion disk caused by the black hole creates the plasma jet which runs through the entire structure. The plasma jet is used as an energy source which powers everything. The electromagnetic shield at the top is like an umbrella, sheltering the rest of the structure as it moves through space at near light speed.

Based on the explanation given, I'll say the thrust reverser and the electromagnetic shield are meant to bounce and filter everything off the "front" of the ship as it moves in that direction, to prevent any damage to the housing units further down the structure.

The black hole device is used as both a central mass as well as a central power source generating the plasma jet. The rings around the plasma jet probably draw power from the plasma directly to power the parts of the structure they control. He doesn't really go into any detail regarding the rings, but I think it makes sense.

As for how everything is secured, every piece of the structure rotates around the plasma jet, and centrifugal force from the constant rotations creates artificial gravity. Think of it as the black hole like thing being the main body of the ship, and as it moves, everything moves with it because it all rotates around parts of the plasma jet stream.


Edit: On second thought, the electromagnetic shield itself should be more than enough to protect against stray debris. The thrust reverser component is probably literally that - to slow down the ship or to bring it to a halt if they want to stop moving. Silly me. :P

Last edited by duckroll; 2013-05-06 at 10:45.
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Old 2013-05-06, 11:01   Link #28
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The problem I see is that stuff should orbit around the black hole and not around its plasma jet. I see no physical reason as to why it should work that way.

As this colony is constructed it seems that the gravitational force of the black hole is somehow equally diluted along this plasma jet thus making everything orbiting around it while at the same time not being pulled by the black hole itself. But how is that logical?

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Based on the explanation given, I'll say the thrust reverser and the electromagnetic shield are meant to bounce and filter everything off the "front" of the ship as it moves in that direction, to prevent any damage to the housing units further down the structure.
Or perhaps it's meant to reverse the thrust of the plasma jet itself. thus creating two thrusts in the same directions so that the colony can move. But why does this colony need to move?


After further thoughts I think it is more likely that they didn't create the black hole, they created the colony around a black hole that already existed. I can speculate that this whole thing is meant to provide a solution to the question of "how can a space colony exist without a sun to rely on". This is probably due to the fact that the Hideauze are taking every single sun available.

The answer they found seems to be "they exploit a black hole with an accretion disk". The plasma beams that they generate are in fact an enormous source of energy.
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Old 2013-05-06, 11:25   Link #29
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Or perhaps it's meant to reverse the thrust of the plasma jet itself. thus creating two thrusts in the same directions so that the colony can move. But why does this colony need to move?
It's a colony ship. Why wouldn't it need to move? The entire Galactic Fleet is a colony moving through the vastness of space. It's meant to be a parallel to how the Gargantia is a fleet colony moving through the vast ocean.
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Old 2013-05-06, 11:31   Link #30
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It's a colony ship. Why wouldn't it need to move? The entire Galactic Fleet is a colony moving through the vastness of space. It's meant to be a parallel to how the Gargantia is a fleet colony moving through the vast ocean.
But in the case of Gargantia we know that they have a good reason to be constantly on the move, else they could just settle for floating platforms, it would be a lot more cost effective.
What's Avalon's reason?
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Old 2013-05-06, 11:32   Link #31
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If they are trying to find a nice habitable planet, moving the combined lump that is Avalon closer to it would make it easier to transfer the population to the planet... or, considering their technology and the mass of the entire assemblage, maybe they'd just grab the planet and take it with them, dunno.

As a current issue, moving Avalon helps prevent being eaten by giant space snails.
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Old 2013-05-06, 11:37   Link #32
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Not getting eaten by giant space snails?
Ha ha, perhaps. It's difficult to tell as long as we don't know how the Hideauze move through space. If their space travel system allow them to jump just like the alliance do, it would be pointless.

There are some hints regarding this that could be useful to clarify this concept. We know that both Ledo and Kugel wanted to prevent at all costs the Hideauze from reaching the wormhole.

I always thought that this was because the Hideauze do not know the colony's position. But if you are right, it might be because they cannot normally reach it.


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If they are trying to find a nice habitable planet, moving the combined lump that is Avalon closer to it would make it easier to transfer the population to the planet...
I doubt this. It would be better to first find an inhabitable planet and then move the colony there rather than moving it aimlessly.
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Old 2013-05-06, 11:38   Link #33
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But in the case of Gargantia we know that they have a good reason to be constantly on the move, else they could just settle for floating platforms, it would be a lot more cost effective.
What's Avalon's reason?
Tradition. They were the humans who left the Earth to journey into the stars. They continue that journey to this day, only to be hindered by aliens as they go further and further. Avalon is their mobile home.

I really doubt that they "found" a black hole and used it too. Since in the opening of the first episode, you can see that ships like Avalon were destroyed before. They obviously managed to rebuild them. The high density mass is what "moves" the ship to begin with, so they definitely have control over it. Looking at Chamber's own gravitational sphere which it uses to fly, I would say they definitely have the technology to generate things which act like black holes, without the drawbacks of actual black holes today. Ie: they can create high density spheres with gravitational properties which don't suck everything into oblivion, and can be controlled.
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Old 2013-05-06, 11:43   Link #34
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Tradition. They were the humans who left the Earth to journey into the stars. They continue that journey to this day, only to be hindered by aliens as they go further and further. Avalon is their mobile home.

I really doubt that they "found" a black hole and used it too. Since in the opening of the first episode, you can see that ships like Avalon were destroyed before. They obviously managed to rebuild them. The high density mass is what "moves" the ship to begin with, so they definitely have control over it. Looking at Chamber's own gravitational sphere which it uses to fly, I would say they definitely have the technology to generate things which act like black holes, without the drawbacks of actual black holes today. Ie: they can create high density spheres with gravitational properties which don't suck everything into oblivion, and can be controlled.
Even if they have the technology they can't create energy out of thin air.
The exploitation of an existing black hole would solve this issue.

At any rate you need an enormous amount of matter to create a stable black hole with an accretion disk included, and that's another thing that they couldn't have possibly summoned from nothing.


As for "tradition" and "mobile home" I don't think that's true, because if Ledo thought that Earth could potentially become their new hub, then that means that Avalon is merely a temporary settlement and that they actually want to settle permanently on a planet, which is stated to be one of their main objectives.
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Old 2013-05-06, 11:55   Link #35
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As for "tradition" and "mobile home" I don't think that's true, because if Ledo thought that Earth could potentially become their new hub, then that means that Avalon is merely a temporary settlement and that they actually want to settle permanently on a planet, which is stated to be one of their main objectives.
Remember what Chamber said in response to Ledo's speculation. There is no indication that they are looking for a permanent home. Ledo only knows what his orders are and he has never even been on Avalon himself. Not a reliable source imo. Oh the other hand, based on the narration at the start of episode 1, it clearly mentions humanity's journey onward, and that only the aliens stand in their way.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I don't remember settlement ever being stated as an objective - only fighting the Hideauze. It seems that's the only objective they ever had.
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Old 2013-05-06, 12:02   Link #36
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Remember what Chamber said in response to Ledo's speculation. There is no indication that they are looking for a permanent home. Ledo only knows what his orders are and he has never even been on Avalon himself. Not a reliable source imo. Oh the other hand, based on the narration at the start of episode 1, it clearly mentions humanity's journey onward, and that only the aliens stand in their way.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but I don't remember settlement ever being stated as an objective - only fighting the Hideauze. It seems that's the only objective they ever had.
Episode 2, in that scene you mention, Chamber only intervenes when Ledo suggests that Earth might replace Avalon as their hub, but he doesn't say anything when Ledo just before said that securing a habitable planet is the alliance's most fervent wish.

I seriously doubt that Ledo made that up.
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Old 2013-05-06, 12:06   Link #37
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Episode 2, in that scene you mention, Chamber only intervenes when Ledo suggests that Earth might replace Avalon as their hub, but he doesn't say anything when Ledo just before said that securing a habitable planet is the alliance's most fervent wish.

I seriously doubt that Ledo made that up.
Oh yeah, that's true. I missed that. Maybe their journey was to find a new planet after Earth was destroyed? It seems they travelled a long way and still never found anything like Earth ever again. That could be why they're still looking.
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Old 2013-05-11, 11:39   Link #38
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I'll be honest with everyone here in that i never really paid much attention in geography so let me just ask this one dumb question: In terms of making it drinkable, what's the difference between rain water and ocean water?(Based on Amy saying rain water was a valuable commodity).
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Old 2013-05-11, 13:06   Link #39
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I'll be honest with everyone here in that i never really paid much attention in geography so let me just ask this one dumb question: In terms of making it drinkable, what's the difference between rain water and ocean water?(Based on Amy saying rain water was a valuable commodity).
Basically: salt.

Ocean water is salt water, that means the concentration of salt (to be more precise Na+ and Cl- ions) is too high.

You probably know already that eating salty stuff makes you thirsty. That's because our body needs a precise ratio of salt/water to function correctly, so when you ingest too much salt, it wants you to drink water to compensate.

Sea water has so much salt that it offsets the water it provides, it would be pointless and even unhealthy to drink it.

Rain water on the other side has no salt whatsoever, since rain is basically condensed water that has firstly evaporated. Salt doesn't evaporate.
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Old 2013-05-11, 16:22   Link #40
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Ah that makes sense. I forgot that the water would've been evaported first. Thanks for that.
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