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Old 2013-05-11, 20:59   Link #1041
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
The 350 times number includes all salaries, bonuses, incentives, etc. but only compares that to average hourly pay. It doesn't include the typical workers benefits, pension or any other items. It also doesn't factor in that they work a hell of a lot more than 40 hours a week. I even found the news article that talks about it: http://moneymorning.com/2013/04/19/c...erage-workers/

The number is probably closer to 100-200 times, which is still absurdly high, but not unexpected. How much do most professionals make? I know even highly paid white collar workers make like 30-50 times the $20/hr rate being quoted here. Some in excess of 100 times. So how much should they make?
It's time to take a piece of the play book from sports leagues:

The Salary Cap.

By imposing a salary cap, the market actually becomes more competitive. This is proven. Sure, those at the executive levels... they deserve their pay. However, it can also become so excessive, such that it becomes a threat to the country. A reasonable limit is something to be considered.

What should that number be? A number to factor with the average income rate. Somewhere between 100 to 200 times sounds reasonable.
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Old 2013-05-11, 23:31   Link #1042
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The artifact of corporation has been tweaked. It isn't a "win-win" instrument, it now functions as wealth extraction by the descendents of the 'robber baron' class who occupy the executive ranks and the board of directors in a marvelous incestual bramble bush. Any analysis of history shows the concentration of wealth into a smaller and smaller group destabilizes a civilization. "Legally extracting an organism's nutrients until it dies" really isn't smart but nonetheless ... well, let's just say the pitchforks and guillotines have come out before in human history when there were no checks and balances on wealth concentration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
I'm not sure how to approach your statements about "robber barons" and "the artifact of the corporation" -- simply because that shows strong emotional responses and I feel nothing about this emotionally. I look at the world and see what is and why. You look at the world and see how (you think) it should be and ask why not.
Simply because, this is a discussion between an aeronautics engineer versus a finances consultant. They execute their work differently - one solve technical problems, one solves fundamental problems.

An engineer forces progress by pushing frontiers, while a finances consultant squeezes dry the explored areas so ensure that there is no wastage.

Nobody is wrong because their way of thinking put society on a roll by solving problems. Though at this time and age where the world is in an economic bind and the dead bodies started to float, both parties should find a common ground instead of bickering about whose way of solving problems is right. It'd be total bigotry to assume that one is always so.

By the way, I was a finance-degree leaver, insurance agent, and now I am a computer engineer - the reason why most companies fall apart is because the finance department is technically incompetent, and the technical department is financially aloof. They are always looking for reasons not to work together simply because they can't agree.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:07   Link #1043
Vexx
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One is also working from the theory of incorporation and I'm looking at it from watching practical case studies over many corporations from many levels. I just laugh when someone earnestly asserts nonsense about fiduciary responsibilities of the executive management. Sure there are some "good guys" but most of the time - the land of Dilbert is an optimistic view of the sort of crap I've seen. "Corporation" is broken. It can be fixed but that involves spotlights and external accountability and controls that doesn't reward behavior that damages the company, the shareholders, the employees ... the guys who gave us the 1850s, the 1890s, the 1930s, and now this decade are simply at it again.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:17   Link #1044
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
One is also working from the theory of incorporation and I'm looking at it from watching practical case studies over many corporations from many levels. I just laugh when someone earnestly asserts nonsense about fiduciary responsibilities of the executive management. Sure there are some "good guys" but most of the time - the land of Dilbert is an optimistic view of the sort of crap I've seen. "Corporation" is broken. It can be fixed but that involves spotlights and external accountability and controls that doesn't reward behavior that damages the company, the shareholders, the employees ... the guys who gave us the 1850s, the 1890s, the 1930s, and now this decade are simply at it again.
And one is seeing this from a perspective of practical experience working with corporations and the fiduciary duty of boards, management and their advisors in situations of financial distress .. as well as review and assess how they got there. I work in situations both where the company needs to be refinanced, restructured, sold or from an acquiror perspective, attempting to take advantage of distress, to acquire a company at a discount. Special Situations as it were.

I have seen my fair share of financial destruction and armageddon from financial mismanagement due to incompetent leaders. I have seen corporate board cronies of all stripes. I have seen management get incentive bonuses and golden parachutes even when companies have filed for creditor protection and they are literally fighting for a pot of the residual proceeds that would otherwise go to employees and shareholders. I have seen the "beast" as it were.

All of that .. and I still cannot agree with your comment above. It is so far "out there" and laced with, from my perspective, disdain or vitriol .. that I cannot even begin to respond to it. As I have met the "worst" of management out there, I have also met the best -- and they are to be admired (albeit unlikely to do business with me).
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:24   Link #1045
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
All of that .. and I still cannot agree with your comment above. It is so far "out there" and laced with, from my perspective, disdain or vitriol .. that I cannot even begin to respond to it. As I have met the "worst" of management out there, I have also met the best -- and they are to be admired (albeit unlikely to do business with me).
There is always a reason behind disdain and vitriol. For a start, please list :

#1-What is it exactly you cannot agree with and why.

#2-As emotional as it sounds to you, how can it be more "logical" from your perspective?

Remember, nobody likes being called names and left hanging. Being an investment banker yourself, you have the experience which promulgated your views so far. We don't, so we need you to explain and elaborate because we do not have first-hand with inner-circles of the various "robber-barons".

Wall of text or not, I am sure old-man will read, as jaded as he is against bankers, he isn't completely unreasonable. Besides both of you have probably agreed that more regulation is required. But what kind of regulation to benefit all points of the holy trinity of employer, employee and government?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:30   Link #1046
willx
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^ Well, I'm the one that's trying to understand -- you say I'm calling someone names .. but I'm actually not. I have not and I will not. I'm tip-toeing because I'm trying to figure out whether it is possible for me to engage in a discussion when the words that immediately come to mind are "robber barons" and people laugh at the idea of fiduciary responsibilities. When the premise is deemed to be absurd, then a conversation cannot even begin, because there is no common ground.

So from my perspective, I'm trying to figure out where the emotional response is coming from in the first place, it's like talking about any debate and someone coming out and flat out making a statement: "The entire situation is wrong and utterly unfixable and nothing you can say is credible"
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:32   Link #1047
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There is also the years of experiance difference.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:32   Link #1048
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ Not sure where you get your numbers from but the majority of that excess compensation is based primarily on incentive compensation. IE. Share price increases, share buybacks and aggregate returns to shareholders. Look at the CEO salaries since 2007/2008. Look at cash vs. incentive pay. Look at clawbacks etc?

From the perspective of a company shareholder, what do you want? A company to continue to operate in areas where manufacturing costs are higher do you want them to shift labour overseas? If your job was to manage millions or billions of other people's investments -- which do you prefer? Remember, much of the investment money in the markets these days are from CalPERS and other pension funds and other people's retirement savings. Fund managers influence boards that have oversight on these companies. You speak of works being worked harder, being forced to be more efficient .. worker productivity in the U.S. is stagnant. Just look at the numbers. Cold, uncaring numbers.
So you acknowledge that your interests are definitely not aligned with those of society? At least, the societies of rich countries from which you operate. I have to acknowledge that developing countries, well, develop thanks to outsourcing.

You work for rich investors - fair enough. Most people do not have millions to invest in various financial products, though. And while they profit from being able to buy really cheap socks, they lose a lot more from not having a job. The country as a whole also loses from high unemployment and income inequality.

I don't know what the global effect is. But people generally don't care. They look out for number one. So you can't blame them for looking at you as the enemy. After all, you are.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:33   Link #1049
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Those numbers on CEO/worker compensation are accepted by all sides of the discussion. They're not "one side's computation". They're also only US numbers. CEOs in other countries make far less in comparison compared to their workers. A well-regulated playing field would control and mitigate a lot of these destabilizing forces and corporations would still make "the maximum legal profit" -- it just wouldn't so totally screw the employees, the customers, and the shareholders as it has evolved to now. Where do you get your idea that "production in the US is stagnant"? It has more than doubled in the last 20 years.
The funniest thing: I do find selective calculations of adding any and all benefits that the CEO's receive while ignoring basically every perk/benefits of the employees to hypocritical at least.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:40   Link #1050
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ Well, I'm the one that's trying to understand -- you say I'm calling someone names .. but I'm actually not. I have not and I will not. I'm tip-toeing because I'm trying to figure out whether it is possible for me to engage in a discussion when the words that immediately come to mind are "robber barons" and people laugh at the idea of fiduciary responsibilities. When the premise is deemed to be absurd, then a conversation cannot even begin, because there is no common ground.

So from my perspective, I'm trying to figure out where the emotional response is coming from in the first place, it's like talking about any debate and someone coming out and flat out making a statement: "The entire situation is wrong and utterly unfixable and nothing you can say is credible"
Thank you for correcting my hazard guess.

As an observer with at least 1 year each of working in both engineering and finance, that is what you are sounding like. Maybe it is the unemotional phrasing and sentence construction that makes others perceive that you are arrogant and authoritative (in a way of "that is the way the world is, get used to it").

If you think that the person is coming out and flat-out making a statement: "The entire situation is wrong and utterly unfixable and nothing you can say is credible.", take a look back at the three portions of this insinuation :

1. The other party sees something wrong with the situation. Do both of you have a common understanding of what is exactly wrong?

2. The other party thinks it is unfixable. Why does he think so?

3. Nothing you can say is credible. What have I said that is unreasonable?

These are the three questions you can pose to Vexx. Right now, both parties each has their own perception of what is wrong, but my intuition tells me that there is an utterly complex sequence lost somewhere in each person's POV that is rather, if not entirely similar.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:41   Link #1051
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So you acknowledge that your interests are definitely not aligned with those of society? At least, the societies of rich countries from which you operate. I have to acknowledge that developing countries, well, develop thanks to outsourcing.

You work for rich investors - fair enough. Most people do not have millions to invest in various financial products, though. And while they profit from being able to buy really cheap socks, they lose a lot more from not having a job. The country as a whole also loses from high unemployment and income inequality.

I don't know what the global effect is. But people generally don't care. They look out for number one. So you can't blame them for looking at you as the enemy. After all, you are.
I know you are responding to my post, but please read above, because I think your post requires some revisions.

I do not work for rich investors. My post was to highlight that pension funds that invest retirement savings for "mom & pop" are those that are approving of these corporate actions. That individuals buying into mutual funds, even if they are just investing their 401Ks, are primarily looking out for their "#1" which is themselves.

There are precious few people, even amongst the retired working class, that would say: "Yes, it will take a chunk out of my retirement savings, but please operate in the U.S. and run up higher labour costs!"
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:45   Link #1052
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
So from my perspective, I'm trying to figure out where the emotional response is coming from in the first place, it's like talking about any debate and someone coming out and flat out making a statement: "The entire situation is wrong and utterly unfixable and nothing you can say is credible"
Nobody said the situation could not be salvaged, either. It absolutely can--it'll take a lot more than some greedy fat white guys to mess everything up, though they appear to be trying their best.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:46   Link #1053
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
I know you are responding to my post, but please read above, because I think your post requires some revisions.

I do not work for rich investors. My post was to highlight that pension funds that invest retirement savings for "mom & pop" are those that are approving of these corporate actions. That individuals buying into mutual funds, even if they are just investing their 401Ks, are primarily looking out for their "#1" which is themselves.

There are precious few people, even amongst the retired working class, that would say: "Yes, it will take a chunk out of my retirement savings, but please operate in the U.S. and run up higher labour costs!"
Point and pertinence highlighted. Proof is in previous post.

Next reply please.

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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Nobody said the situation could not be salvaged, either. It absolutely can--it'll take a lot more than some greedy fat white guys to mess everything up, though they appear to be trying their best.
From the finance perspective, the "greedy white fat guys" are doing their job of meeting shareholder (inclusive of the public ones) expectations. I do think that it is the salespeople of the PR or financial firms that offer the expectations to share-buyers and investors beyond realistic levels, resulting in cost-cutting in an attempt to feed everyone.

I think willx would probably say how some CEOs screw up in that juggling act and came to him for advice.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:53   Link #1054
Ithekro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
There are precious few people, even amongst the retired working class, that would say: "Yes, it will take a chunk out of my retirement savings, but please operate in the U.S. and run up higher labour costs!"
You might be surprised by that.

First they would ask why it would cost them anything, and then ask why the higher labour cost would effect them if shipping costs and profit seem to bloat the pocket books (from their point of view).

I know a lot of people that want all industry to be in the US. They will actively not buy things from other countries unless they can't avoid it. Usually specifically not buying Chinese goods, and when viable avoiding other counties products when there is an alterative (cars for example).

They would prefer industry here to support our own economy and by having the workforce here, the workers gain income and because we use income tax, the government makes more money as well. And for places that use sales tax, the people that now have money, will spend, netting those governments (state, county, city) moeny as well.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:54   Link #1055
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
From the finance perspective, the "greedy white fat guys" are doing their job of meeting shareholder (inclusive of the public ones) expectations. I do think that it is the salespeople of the PR or financial firms that offer the expectations to share-buyers and investors beyond realistic levels, resulting in cost-cutting in an attempt to feed everyone.

I think willx would probably say how some CEOs screw up in that juggling act and came to him for advice.
There were these two managers that were so incompetent and drove a company worth hundreds of millions into the ground. It drove me nuts. These guys destroyed a company and based on how the legal and employment agreements were drafted .. even after bankrupting the company they were going to walk away with millions because my firm managed to salvage maximum value for the residual business.

One was also so incredibly fat, that whenever you sat beside him, you were constantly worried about whether he would reach over and eat you.

For additional context, I work with senior executives of firms in numerous industries as well as senior accountants, lawyers, industry experts and sometimes get exposure to the odd politician, official or minister. I have also worked with IT and management consultants from both big and small consulting firms. Some of my best friends are lawyers, doctors, consultants, engineers -- but also people from a broad subsection of society -- such as unemployed political activist, IT helpdesk managers, someone that works in the forensics office, a cartoonist, an art manager, someone that started a design firm. I am not a millionaire, I grew up as a poor immigrant living in the worst part of town and my earliest memories are living out of a single room with both my parents. (I'm not a greedy white fat robber baron)
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:56   Link #1056
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
I know you are responding to my post, but please read above, because I think your post requires some revisions.

I do not work for rich investors. My post was to highlight that pension funds that invest retirement savings for "mom & pop" are those that are approving of these corporate actions. That individuals buying into mutual funds, even if they are just investing their 401Ks, are primarily looking out for their "#1" which is themselves.

There are precious few people, even amongst the retired working class, that would say: "Yes, it will take a chunk out of my retirement savings, but please operate in the U.S. and run up higher labour costs!"
But more than a few workers would say "I'm willing to retire later provided I'm not a jobless hobo at age 40".

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2013-05-12 at 03:12.
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:58   Link #1057
Sumeragi
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Wil, what are you doing at 3 am in the morning?
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Old 2013-05-12, 02:59   Link #1058
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
There were these two managers that were so incompetent and drove a company worth hundreds of millions into the ground. It drove me nuts. These guys destroyed a company and based on how the legal and employment agreements were drafted .. even after bankrupting the company they were going to walk away with millions because my firm managed to salvage maximum value for the residual business.

One was also so incredibly fat, that whenever you sat beside him, you were constantly worried about whether he would reach over and eat you.
That is where you need to elaborate, on how did they screw it up. You reserve the right not to name anyone or anything.

Don't worry about anyone here no understanding the technicalities. We can either ask or use Google.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Wil, what are you doing at 3 am in the morning?
Lolis. Recent trends point to that due to the low birth rate in Japan being compounded by economic fear due to Abenomics, the production of Japanese lolis will decrease in the next decade, resulting in a possible price spike for the pure and innocent ones.

Given the possible desperation of the markets, people who desire lolis may seek Korean alternatives or bratty hafus. There might be some recognition of value in fujoshis as well. *runs*
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-12, 03:00   Link #1059
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Wil, what are you doing at 3 am in the morning?
Working. And it's 4AM in the morning. Well, working and commenting on a forum with "wall o texts" -- I'm not paid hourly after all and work needs to get done.
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Old 2013-05-12, 03:02   Link #1060
Sumeragi
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Working. And it's 4AM in the morning. Well, working and commenting on a forum with "wall o texts" -- I'm not paid hourly after all and work needs to get done.
Damnit, I keep forgetting Ontario is Eastern. Seems like we're in similar boats right now.
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