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Old 2012-08-22, 13:39   Link #201
Korps!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
How can anyone possibly like Kirino? She treats her friends like poo, never thanks her bro for the many things he does for her, and then gets everything she wants. Freakin serious?? Its like watching netorare, it makes me so mad. Again, how can anyone sane like her? Is it true she's supposed to be an idealizee otaku?
That would be one of the universe's greatest mystery.
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Old 2013-04-05, 17:24   Link #202
dreamingsamurai
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Originally Posted by s0beit View Post
No way, she's way worse in the novels. I have to disagree entirely. They lightened it up in the anime for sure.
I kind of have to agree. In some ways, all her barbs seem to feel more personal since we are dealing from within the POV of Kyousuke. We have access to his inner monologue, so we get a clearer picture of his thoughts whenever he goes to sacrifice himself for her sake or when he's physically/verbally attacked.

I'm currently on Vol 3 of the LN (Christmas Eve) and all I could thinking about is how much of a masochist Kyousuke seems to be for putting up with all the psychological abuse even after going above and beyond in helping her. Granted she might be tsundere for him with a closet brother complex that she's subconsciously trying to suppress, but you can only excuse so far before it just feels like a convenient excuse. In some ways it reminds me of a wife who keeps defending her drunken husband no matter how many times he beats her. Just because he only happens to attack her when he's not in full control of himself still doesn't excuse the fact that he attacked her.

I can only hope that this is a case of "the greater the sin, the greater the redemption."

Wow, I didn't expect to write so much. I guess I had alot bottled inside.
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Old 2013-04-05, 17:31   Link #203
Flying Dagger
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Originally Posted by Korps! View Post
That would be one of the universe's greatest mystery.
Kirino actually cares much for her regular friends (see season 1, Kirino and Ayase).

her otaku friends know and accept the ugly sides of Kirino: as fellow otakus I think they understand Kirino's struggles (but does not mean they like it, but they will forgive her).

As for Kirino/Kyousuke... well, Kyousuke is obviously a siscon
Spoiler for LN:
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Old 2013-04-05, 18:55   Link #204
GVN.Chaos
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Originally Posted by dreamingsamurai View Post
I kind of have to agree. In some ways, all her barbs seem to feel more personal since we are dealing from within the POV of Kyousuke. We have access to his inner monologue, so we get a clearer picture of his thoughts whenever he goes to sacrifice himself for her sake or when he's physically/verbally attacked.

I'm currently on Vol 3 of the LN (Christmas Eve) and all I could thinking about is how much of a masochist Kyousuke seems to be for putting up with all the psychological abuse even after going above and beyond in helping her. Granted she might be tsundere for him with a closet brother complex that she's subconsciously trying to suppress, but you can only excuse so far before it just feels like a convenient excuse. In some ways it reminds me of a wife who keeps defending her drunken husband no matter how many times he beats her. Just because he only happens to attack her when he's not in full control of himself still doesn't excuse the fact that he attacked her.

I can only hope that this is a case of "the greater the sin, the greater the redemption."

Wow, I didn't expect to write so much. I guess I had alot bottled inside.
Sigh.....
You are from the West, aren't you? Because from a Eastern reader's POV, it's not that hard to understand.
1st, Kyousuke is a M - that's for sure
2nd, as a siscon, he subconsciously wanted to make up with Kirino. That's why he did all that.
And 3rd, in a Eastern cultural, it's entire possible to raise the first child to be that protective of their younger sibling. No matter how much they fought, the older one would feel the need to help their younger, at least because of family's responsible.
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Old 2013-04-05, 20:09   Link #205
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Originally Posted by GVN.Chaos View Post
Sigh.....
You are from the West, aren't you? Because from a Eastern reader's POV, it's not that hard to understand.
1st, Kyousuke is a M - that's for sure
2nd, as a siscon, he subconsciously wanted to make up with Kirino. That's why he did all that.
And 3rd, in a Eastern cultural, it's entire possible to raise the first child to be that protective of their younger sibling. No matter how much they fought, the older one would feel the need to help their younger, at least because of family's responsible.
I need volume 11 adapted ASAP. That might be the only thing that can justify her behavior somewhat. Or Volume 8 adapted asap for some epic reactions from someone's fanbase.
more to be added when i get my thoughts organized. prepare for epic analyzations from sherlock holmes. (jk)
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Old 2013-04-05, 22:53   Link #206
GVN.Chaos
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Originally Posted by finalfury View Post
I need volume 11 adapted ASAP. That might be the only thing that can justify her behavior somewhat. Or Volume 8 adapted asap for some epic reactions from someone's fanbase.
more to be added when i get my thoughts organized. prepare for epic analyzations from sherlock holmes. (jk)
In case you dont know it yet, I'm working solo. 1 volume each month is already my best >.< So please be patient and wait until...uh....July?
And to be honest, I dont see how it could be that hard to understand her behavior. What exactly that you guys fail to understand?
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Old 2013-04-05, 23:15   Link #207
finalfury
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Originally Posted by GVN.Chaos View Post
In case you dont know it yet, I'm working solo. 1 volume each month is already my best >.< So please be patient and wait until...uh....July?
And to be honest, I dont see how it could be that hard to understand her behavior. What exactly that you guys fail to understand?
I can wait 10 years if that's what it takes to get the translation. I just need anime for two reasons: people nowadays read less (in the US), and pictures speak louder than words. Plus the reactions from the fan base and hearing Nakamura Yuichi, Kana Hanazawa, Ayana Taketatsu, Saori Hayami makes me estatic. Plus I said adaptation, not translation so please do not think that I'm trying to coerce you in a negative way to translate faster.
Edit: Interesting to see slight development from season 1 Kirino and season 2 Kirino. Noticeable differences:
Grabs his hand and drags him through Akihabara for hours too lol.
Gives him an eroge that she didn't play yet and acknowledges that he helped her.
Picks up when he calls her cell.
Takes him to Akihabara instead of Kuroneko and Saori.
Barely hits him and yells at him. Season 1 episode 1 had yelling and hitting(kicking and slapping) in it lol.
More to come later.
Sad that people think Kyousuke is a doormat/dog/slave/servant of Kirino. T.T
Few people are willing to lose their dignity for another person. If you want to something for someone, do you do it expecting a reward, or do you do it because you want to?
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Last edited by finalfury; 2013-04-06 at 18:21. Reason: salvage kyousuke reputation because he's cool
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Old 2013-04-07, 01:49   Link #208
Sound of Azure
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Originally Posted by finalfury View Post
Barely hits him and yells at him. Season 1 episode 1 had yelling and hitting(kicking and slapping) in it lol.
Some would argue any amount of hitting and yelling is too much. It is an improvement, but I think Kyousuke had good reason to feel unsettled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by finalfury View Post
Sad that people think Kyousuke is a doormat/dog/slave/servant of Kirino. T.T
Few people are willing to lose their dignity for another person. If you want to something for someone, do you do it expecting a reward, or do you do it because you want to?
It is possible to do things altruistically like you say, but the average person considers being treated with the standard amount of courtesy as "normal", not as a "reward".
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Old 2013-04-07, 08:07   Link #209
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Originally Posted by Sound of Azure View Post
It is possible to do things altruistically like you say, but the average person considers being treated with the standard amount of courtesy as "normal", not as a "reward".
But if you stop helping someone because they never show you courtesy then you are still treating it as a reward, or an entitlement.

Normal is subjective.

Don't expect anything in return, at all.

That's how you separate the good man from the average.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2013-04-07 at 08:28.
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Old 2013-05-09, 20:02   Link #210
Reek of Blood
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
How can anyone possibly like Kirino? She treats her friends like poo, never thanks her bro for the many things he does for her, and then gets everything she wants. Freakin serious?? Its like watching netorare, it makes me so mad. Again, how can anyone sane like her? Is it true she's supposed to be an idealizee otaku?
Yep. Kirino is 90% perverted bitch, 10% perverted tsundere. You simply have to love bitches to like her. I have no problem with that whatsoever, but I also think liking her is just dumb, wasted thoughts. So you know how I feel about Kyousuke especially since he basically can have Kuroneko (and Manami) in his back pocket (or front ) if he would just leave that silly bitch to her perverted devices.

This will probably be the last thing I ever speak about her. I nearly dropped this show because of her goddamn annoying attitudes that makes my blood boils so much
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Old 2013-05-09, 22:54   Link #211
GVN.Chaos
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Originally Posted by Reek of Blood View Post
Yep. Kirino is 90% perverted bitch, 10% perverted tsundere. You simply have to love bitches to like her. I have no problem with that whatsoever, but I also think liking her is just dumb, wasted thoughts. So you know how I feel about Kyousuke especially since he basically can have Kuroneko (and Manami) in his back pocket (or front ) if he would just leave that silly bitch to her perverted devices.

This will probably be the last thing I ever speak about her. I nearly dropped this show because of her goddamn annoying attitudes that makes my blood boils so much
Sigh......
If you hate her that much, the door is this way. Go out and don't come back here. Seriously, don't use the word 'bitch' so careless.
PS : How about consider that this is partly Kyousuke's fault that she turned out this way?
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Old 2013-05-10, 02:43   Link #212
Densetsuhakai
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Originally Posted by Reek of Blood View Post
Yep. Kirino is 90% perverted bitch, 10% perverted tsundere. You simply have to love bitches to like her. I have no problem with that whatsoever, but I also think liking her is just dumb, wasted thoughts. So you know how I feel about Kyousuke especially since he basically can have Kuroneko (and Manami) in his back pocket (or front ) if he would just leave that silly bitch to her perverted devices.

This will probably be the last thing I ever speak about her. I nearly dropped this show because of her goddamn annoying attitudes that makes my blood boils so much
No,it's not dumb to like her.I would probably all over her if she was my cute little sister x3 (No,I am not a masochist...).Everybody have their own taste in woman.Just like my previous speaker said,Just go if you don't liker her.
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Old 2013-05-10, 02:58   Link #213
ApathyEcstasy
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Originally Posted by GVN.Chaos View Post
In case you dont know it yet, I'm working solo. 1 volume each month is already my best >.< So please be patient and wait until...uh....July?
And to be honest, I dont see how it could be that hard to understand her behavior. What exactly that you guys fail to understand?
I want to thank you for your hard work translating the light novel volumes. I love them so much and it's thanks to you that I can enjoy them. I hope that you can continue up until the very last one. Thank you.

Spoiler for Comparison to the novels:

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-05-10 at 04:48. Reason: spoiler for comparison, just to be safe
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Old 2013-05-10, 04:53   Link #214
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Yeah, ever since the first anime (which was my starting point), I've always taken Kirino's "bitchiness" as a sign of her insecurity and conflicting feelings. I know that some people feel really strongly that "that doesn't make it okay!" (and if this were real life, clearly it wouldn't), but I was able to relate to her character with that understanding. And those tiny glimpses we got where we saw behind the curtain were that much sweeter because of it.

I can definitely understand why some people have no patience for her... but somehow I was always able to make some sort of sense of everything that was clear to me, even if it wasn't spelled right out in the show proper.
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Old 2013-05-10, 05:45   Link #215
GVN.Chaos
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Spoiler for Allusions to future novel content:

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-05-10 at 18:12. Reason: added spoiler tags
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:04   Link #216
Cadallin
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
But if you stop helping someone because they never show you courtesy then you are still treating it as a reward, or an entitlement.

Normal is subjective.

Don't expect anything in return, at all.

That's how you separate the good man from the average.
Normal is subjective, but abuse is still recognizable as abuse.

I'd also argue that while family might put up with it (and might be more inclined to do so in a non-American culture), its still unhealthy to do so. Because at least as an assumption they'd want her to be able to have normal relationships with other people (and although this is decidedly normative, they'd probably want her to marry, and why would anyone marry Kirino with the way she behaves?)

I'd say the most unrealistic thing about the series is how successful she is, despite how utterly repugnant her demonstrated social skills are.
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:56   Link #217
RegalStar
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Originally Posted by Cadallin View Post
Normal is subjective, but abuse is still recognizable as abuse.

I'd also argue that while family might put up with it (and might be more inclined to do so in a non-American culture), its still unhealthy to do so. Because at least as an assumption they'd want her to be able to have normal relationships with other people (and although this is decidedly normative, they'd probably want her to marry, and why would anyone marry Kirino with the way she behaves?)

I'd say the most unrealistic thing about the series is how successful she is, despite how utterly repugnant her demonstrated social skills are.
Did you uh... actually pay attention to how she actually acts in society (as in, in school and work)?
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Old 2013-05-19, 22:12   Link #218
GVN.Chaos
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Originally Posted by Cadallin View Post
Normal is subjective, but abuse is still recognizable as abuse.

I'd also argue that while family might put up with it (and might be more inclined to do so in a non-American culture), its still unhealthy to do so. Because at least as an assumption they'd want her to be able to have normal relationships with other people (and although this is decidedly normative, they'd probably want her to marry, and why would anyone marry Kirino with the way she behaves?)

I'd say the most unrealistic thing about the series is how successful she is, despite how utterly repugnant her demonstrated social skills are.
Spoiler for LN Vol 10:
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Old 2013-05-20, 01:15   Link #219
Cadallin
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Originally Posted by GVN.Chaos View Post
Spoiler for LN Vol 10:
Eh, that's significantly an informed ability, we're told she does, we never really see it, and I'd say the way she treats her famiy would realistically spill over into at least her personal relationships. Note that we do actually see that with how she treats the circle, and even with Ayase.

I'd say its a pretty contrived aspect of her character that we're supposed to accept the extreme dissonance there.

Its pretty dysfunctional, and a big source of the personal dislike I have for tsundere characters in general. They'd be utterly ghastly to date or even be friends with.
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Old 2013-05-20, 02:29   Link #220
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Eh, that's significantly an informed ability, we're told she does, we never really see it, and I'd say the way she treats her famiy would realistically spill over into at least her personal relationships. Note that we do actually see that with how she treats the circle, and even with Ayase.

I'd say its a pretty contrived aspect of her character that we're supposed to accept the extreme dissonance there.
Keep in mind the whole story is, essentially, told from Kyousuke's perspective, so you're getting a rather one-sided view. You're not getting a truly global perspective, nor is he an unbiased narrator. But I don't really have a problem accepting this sort of "contrivance", because I've known a lot of people who also put on a very thick mask in public (to make themselves look good), but actually have a quite difference face in private. I think the "dissonance" between "the Kirino the world sees" and "the Kirino Kyousuke sees" (and to a certain extent, some of her close friends/family) is one of the defining aspects of her character. And Kirino has argued from the get-go that these are all parts of who she is. I also think that it's something that many in the audience are expected to understand somewhat instinctively, given that enjoying anime (and related hobbies) is something that most tend to keep secret in their "public" lives.

(And that aside, I also think that, even in real life, siblings tend to be exposed to each others' ugly sides as they grow up. They both clearly still have growing up to do. We shouldn't necessarily judge them as if they were fully-formed adults.)

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Originally Posted by Cadallin View Post
Its pretty dysfunctional, and a big source of the personal dislike I have for tsundere characters in general. They'd be utterly ghastly to date or even be friends with.
I've tried to explain the appeal of tsundere characters before, and mostly it comes down to understanding their one fundamental trait: their inability to be honest about their true feelings. Pretty much everything the tsundere character does is just bluster to mask how they really feel. And, as a third-party observer, you are always given signs about what the tsundere character is really thinking in spite of the shown actions.

So I don't think you should see them as if they were a realistic person behaving in a certain way to you personally (as if you were the protagonist). The whole thing works because it's fiction and you're given a glimpse at both sides of the coin. Ultimately, the "reward" is at the end of the process when the breakthrough happens and the character is finally able to be honest (or you see those glimpses shine through). If you're constantly dwelling on their bad attitude, without focusing on what they truly mean deep down, I'd say you're missing the core of what a tsundere character is about.

(This isn't to say that there aren't people who are somewhat "tsundere" in real life -- there are. But even that is a little bit different than the character archetype/trope in anime and the like.)
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