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Old 2013-05-20, 12:41   Link #8221
Flying Dagger
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Idra knows enough about the game that if he really gives a shit he can probably still do well. Knowledge however is often a double edged sword (as you can also misread your opponent). Proper scouting is still a very important aspect which I believe idra have been (surprisingly) letting go of: remember his trademark pincer overlord scouts from two ends?

I think he would also benefit by employing a larger variety of builds against his opponents. This is all moot now as he even forfeited his spot in WCS.

He is another lucky one who rode on his fame from broodwar (as the only B team foreigner with a progaming license in Korea) and success in early days SC2. That two combined gave him a contract from EG which is worth a lot more than his skill value.

At the same time Idra has his foot in this pit far deeper than many others: he was there in Korea for a while. I question whether or not he retained enough knowledge from high school to be accepted into post secondary study. I suppose he can try to get a connection to be the apprentice of a decent chef or a degree in media.
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Old 2013-05-20, 15:21   Link #8222
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
What do they even program? They are suppose to be professional Starcraft players.
They mean Pro-Gamer

Not Programmer

I know, it caught me confused for a bit too.
Quote:
At the same time Idra has his foot in this pit far deeper than many others: he was there in Korea for a while. I question whether or not he retained enough knowledge from high school to be accepted into post secondary study. I suppose he can try to get a connection to be the apprentice of a decent chef or a degree in media.
He decided to do Pro-SC instead of theoretical physics @ RIT with a full ride. In theory, he can still make it back by going to college....
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Old 2013-05-20, 15:39   Link #8223
Miraluka
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Anyone else here wants Stukov to be human again?

The guy doesn't deserves to be treated like that ;_;.
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Old 2013-05-20, 15:46   Link #8224
Hooves
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At least Stukov has had his vengeance, that's enough for me.
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Old 2013-05-20, 16:23   Link #8225
Flying Dagger
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Can idra actually do theoretical physics? Talking about it may be fun and interesting, but the math involved can make this idea quite... theoretical.

//

This 50% off papa john's thing took the community by storm. I want to know how things will go. Too bad I live in Canada so I can't get cheap pizza...
(the fact that they can still make money by selling pizzas 50% off also tells us how much money pizza places are making)

Last edited by Flying Dagger; 2013-05-20 at 21:50.
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Old 2013-05-26, 11:02   Link #8226
Flying Dagger
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WCS EU: MVP vs Dimaga
Dimaga leagues ahead, denied MVP from mining, has a huge bank and good map control.... keeps throwing units into an extremely tight choke vs a mech army... loses several armies... sigh
wtf was that? why no swarm hosts?
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Old 2013-05-26, 13:10   Link #8227
paladinenvec
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My God!!! Stephano VS ForGG
Dat widow mine explosion!
ForGG: Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuck!!!!
Stephano: Dafuq... ??

Edit: Epic...Fail or Win???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=_126Pf3ZP98

Last edited by paladinenvec; 2013-05-26 at 13:21.
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Old 2013-05-26, 13:21   Link #8228
Flying Dagger
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yeah, that was def the most epic moment in WCS EU.

Granted, stephano has been doing a decent job holding back forgg: it was during that key terran timing where they can batter down onto zerg non stop with 3/3 and 3 bases running, and stephano does not even have infestation pit or even a hive. That one megaexplosion pretty much won him the game on the spot.
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Old 2013-05-26, 13:32   Link #8229
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
No matter how you look at it, Idra was an excellent player.
I don't think so. He is most renowned for his play during beta, and during the initial stages of WoL.. but really, after that he was never that good. To paraphrase what other pros have said about him, as good as he is mechanically, he has very little creativity in his play, and as a result of that is very rigid when facing unusual builds. Even among the foreign players, hes nowhere in the league of a Stephano, or a Naniwa, and I'd would rate him lower than several other foreign zergs, such as Ret, Dimaga, or Nerchio. This is all apart from his horrible attitude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
yeah, that was def the most epic moment in WCS EU.

Granted, stephano has been doing a decent job holding back forgg: it was during that key terran timing where they can batter down onto zerg non stop with 3/3 and 3 bases running, and stephano does not even have infestation pit or even a hive. That one megaexplosion pretty much won him the game on the spot.
I thought so too. It looked like Stephano was going to be steamrolled. Sadly I think he will be steamrolled by MVP
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Old 2013-05-26, 15:07   Link #8230
Flying Dagger
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Stephano needs to play less greedy and stick to his heavy ling style with good upgrades. His winrate using that style ZvT has always been extremely high.

hellbats isn't exactly the direct solution to that style either. Hellbat are slow, eats factory time, and also eats up your minerals pretty quickly (= less marines and mines which makes mutas easier to use).
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Old 2013-05-26, 15:25   Link #8231
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
I don't think so. He is most renowned for his play during beta, and during the initial stages of WoL.. but really, after that he was never that good. To paraphrase what other pros have said about him, as good as he is mechanically, he has very little creativity in his play, and as a result of that is very rigid when facing unusual builds. Even among the foreign players, hes nowhere in the league of a Stephano, or a Naniwa, and I'd would rate him lower than several other foreign zergs, such as Ret, Dimaga, or Nerchio. This is all apart from his horrible attitude.
Actually, Idra is most certainly an excellent player as he is better than 99% of people. But skill is relative. Platinum players are far superior to your "average" player but in terms of absolute skill they are still very tiny. If you could get a time machine and go back to Korea Brood War in the year 2000, any halfway decent player would trounce the composition.

Though superior mechanics can overwhelm any creative plays. It's just that he can no longer overpower people at the pro level. Though I would say the value of creativity is overstated as most people are going to stick to the FOTM to win anyways. Or revolve around subverting the FOTM. But then again, tournament and ladder play are 2 different issues. I do think the stereotype of Idra as a ragemacrobot to be a bit overstated. It's easy to say he needs to learn and adapt, but in reality doing these things is beyond the realm of even good players. Hindsight is 20/20 when you're looking at a replay. Actually playing the fast paced game which allows so little time for reaction, much less strategy is another. This is in addition to that most of us simply don't understand the game on that level. It looks simple, sure. But the devil is in the details.

Unfortunately, things change and the metagame evolves. Either you catch up, or even the strongest of players gets left in the dust. Some people were the noobiest of noobs when WoL came out, but now I can't even come close to beating them because I never really strived to improve and wasted my time on 3v3-4v4. Sure it was fun trashing people initially with the skills I carried from BW, but that was probably for the worse. It gave me a false aura of confidence and superiority that would wane as the game grew. I can imagine it's similar on a larger scale for a certain bespectacled rager.

I can say this is a bad game, or the famous "If I practiced more, I'd be even better" but in the end the score screen says otherwise.

In the end, Idra is a great player. He's just not a winner. He just doesn't have the attitude of one and he never will. This just isn't something you can practice or learn. Nothing wrong with that-- he just realized it later then most. Of course, the bad sport part is probably the worst thing. He took his skill advantage for granted, and it was gone before he even realized it.

Tl;dr Being cocky is bad.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-05-26 at 15:48.
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Old 2013-05-26, 15:47   Link #8232
Flying Dagger
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WCS EU afterthoughts:
WCS EU started off pretty rough; with stuff like, last minute sign in time changes, people falsely reporting their opponent for being late, etc. They were also the unfortunate ones to have to start the qualifiers first so they cannot learn from the american qualifiers.

Their production improved greatly at a pretty noticeable pace: from getting better casters, better casting desks, then seeing them adjust the screen in the back so they casters' head do not cover the scores, then finally showing us such an awesome studio, leading up to a well executed finals event (with whitera taking over the bar!).

Meanwhile in America, MLG seems to be just stagnant: the huge focus and monopoly they are given for WCS failed to motivate to improve. The MLG live event is no different from their other cheaply made events in their NY high rise studio. They are stuck with the same two casters with the exception of when Rotterdam paid his own trip to cast WCS, or when totalbiscuit went over to NY to host his shoutcraft tournament.

Sundance seem to have forgotten what has made an MLG event great at the first place. Remember what people keep saying back when Koreans were dominating the MLG events? Even though the Koreans took the trophy, the MLG CROWD won the tournament. The enthusiasm of the MLG crowd can even rival past OSL events (BW events got tons of people attending but I feel like they lack the same enthusiasm as the american audience). MLG: time to stop being cheap and wasting money on a studio at such a fancy place: because you are ruining WCS america.
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Old 2013-05-26, 16:34   Link #8233
Terrestrial Dream
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Agreed WCS EU improved dramatically, the casters, the studio, and fun events they did, like having White-Ra, MC as an analyst, and interactions with the crowd. Overall it was really superb.

I really hope WCS NA steps up. I think they should move the studio to west coast instead of being stuck in NY. For personal benefit NY is better as it is closer to me, but the location is just limiting the potential for WCS NA. If they were to relocate to west coast, they can get casters like Day9, Husky, Incontrol, TB, and others. And I think the west coast is more likely to attract more crowds and probably cheaper studio.

And at this point I gave upon idea of region locking. I think growing WCS NA and EU might be more beneficial. Comparing to football, English Premier League has tons of foreign player and doesn't have great English players compare to the numbers of great foreign players. But the league overall is strong and attract attention from all over the world because of the quality. So as long as events like WCS EU put up a great show, I think Starcraft 2 scene will be able to grow tremendously.
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Old 2013-05-27, 02:59   Link #8234
oompa loompa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Though superior mechanics can overwhelm any creative plays. It's just that he can no longer overpower people at the pro level. Though I would say the value of creativity is overstated as most people are going to stick to the FOTM to win anyways. Or revolve around subverting the FOTM. But then again, tournament and ladder play are 2 different issues. I do think the stereotype of Idra as a ragemacrobot to be a bit overstated. It's easy to say he needs to learn and adapt, but in reality doing these things is beyond the realm of even good players. Hindsight is 20/20 when you're looking at a replay. Actually playing the fast paced game which allows so little time for reaction, much less strategy is another. This is in addition to that most of us simply don't understand the game on that level. It looks simple, sure. But the devil is in the details.
Well sure, hes a GM zerg player so he is better than 99% of the players. But you said it yourself, hes no longer that good as a pro and that is the relevant skill group to compare him to. Idra is still pretty great at ladder afaik. I think the effect of creativity and flexibility is quite subtle in a game like starcraft, and really speaking only high diamond + players (1v1 only) really notice and see the significance of slight variations in build orders, at least while watching official match casts. If you watch any pro players stream, they go about things so quickly and (seemingly) mechanically that its easy to miss. However, if you watch a masters players stream ( for example, I sometimes watch Rekatans replays) you get an idea of just how many factors actually go into a high level game when theyre not executed perfectly. As you said, ladder play and tournament play are vastly different, and probably a lot more important in tournament play. Its not even about throwing your opponent off by going fast DT or a 6-pool, its about making small changes to your build against different players.
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Old 2013-06-01, 01:43   Link #8235
Flying Dagger
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GSL finals going on right now, bogus start off game 1 with a quick 12/12rax into victory...
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Old 2013-06-01, 01:48   Link #8236
Terrestrial Dream
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These fucking K-pops are so dumb...

I hope this will be the last of cheese, I rather see long macro game.
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Old 2013-06-01, 03:57   Link #8237
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
GSL finals going on right now, bogus start off game 1 with a quick 12/12rax into victory...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
These fucking K-pops are so dumb...

I hope this will be the last of cheese, I rather see long macro game.
Going 3-0... and losing the series... seriously...
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Old 2013-06-01, 03:59   Link #8238
oompa loompa
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HOLY SHIT SOULKEY.. now has the key to my soul

I think artosis and tasteless were spot on. It was the fact that innovation didn't have just 1-2 tanks in games 4-5 that caused him to lose. I feel like in game 5 the main reason that soulkey went for it again was because he realized that innovation was a little rigid with his build, and obviously hes got the roach ling baneling all-in down to a pat. After going up 3-0, I can't help but think he made the wrong choice to 2rax (which I actually thought was quite predictable) in game 6 as opposed to just playing the same way with a tank or two. Game 7 was anyone's game, with 2 turning points; when the 3rd CC got killed, and when soulkey sniped those 3 medivacs.

Last edited by oompa loompa; 2013-06-01 at 04:10.
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Old 2013-06-01, 12:04   Link #8239
Terrestrial Dream
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So after Innovation won his 3rd match I was so tired and went to bed thinking it was over. Woke up and saw Soulkey won... wtf.

But yeah tanks would done wonder for Innovation.
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Old 2013-06-01, 14:19   Link #8240
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
I think artosis and tasteless were spot on. It was the fact that innovation didn't have just 1-2 tanks in games 4-5 that caused him to lose..
You'd think he'd learn that lesson by now.

'cause here's the thing. He was like 2-0 over Symbol in the semi-final, until he lost 2 games against either a roach all-in or a roach hydra all-in (I can't remember). Then for the final game, he had one tank in base and held off the third attempt -- and closed out the series to make the final.
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