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Old 2013-05-21, 08:40   Link #6701
LoweGear
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Old 2013-05-21, 08:46   Link #6702
Endless Soul
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Join Date: May 2011
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Funny moment last night. UTE and I were doing rather badly in our platoon (well, WE weren't doing that bad, but our teams were), so we decided to break it off for a time. The very next game, were were in the same game, on the same side, at the top of the tier list right next to each other, unplatooned.

We went on to win the game. Then we re-platooned up with Q and had some triple-RAM II shenanigans. Good times.
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Old 2013-05-21, 08:58   Link #6703
Endless Knackwurst
Clumsy Valkyrie Pilot
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
You need to research the D-54 to get to the T-62A, yes. The 10T2C is a better gun, but isn't actually required to unlock the tank...

The derp gun on the KV-1: It has a lower rate of fire and a worse aim time than the tier 5 German and American derps, but a higher alpha. The KV-1 may be able to one-shot an M4 or Pz4 with its derp gun, the M4 and Pz4 will need to shoot the KV-1 twice. The problem then becomes who gets a chance to shoot the other first.
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Old 2013-05-21, 09:21   Link #6704
Kimidori
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Age: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Just a quick aside: researching the D-54 gun on the T-54 is required to unlock the T-62A right? Because with the D-10T2C, there's little reason to get it aside from that.
yeah, one thing, don't unlock the D-10T2C unless you can afford to load half HEAT in it, the D-10T2C, while have better aimtime, reload and accuracy, it have much worse pen for normal AP round.
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Old 2013-05-21, 09:31   Link #6705
Kamijou_Touma
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Either way derp can still kill in two or three shot those tanks.
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Old 2013-05-21, 09:35   Link #6706
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
You need to research the D-54 to get to the T-62A, yes. The 10T2C is a better gun, but isn't actually required to unlock the tank...

The derp gun on the KV-1: It has a lower rate of fire and a worse aim time than the tier 5 German and American derps, but a higher alpha. The KV-1 may be able to one-shot an M4 or Pz4 with its derp gun, the M4 and Pz4 will need to shoot the KV-1 twice. The problem then becomes who gets a chance to shoot the other first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamijou_Touma View Post
Either way derp can still kill in two or three shot those tanks.
Well, the M4 and Pz4 derps cannot reliably punch through the front of a KV-1, you'll bounce half your shots, especially because the projectile travels at such a high arc. You'll have to pray you get a good flank on..
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Old 2013-05-21, 10:08   Link #6707
Kimidori
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Clan Wars Campaigns

so anyone want to give a shot at obtain the M60? since it have 4 stages with different tier limit, we don't need all tier 10 to participate.
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Old 2013-05-21, 10:18   Link #6708
Endless Knackwurst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Well, the M4 and Pz4 derps cannot reliably punch through the front of a KV-1, you'll bounce half your shots, especially because the projectile travels at such a high arc. You'll have to pray you get a good flank on..
This reminds me of an AT 2 driver that complained after they were killed by my derp Sherman:

explodes
Them: "[Sigh...] HEAT rounds..."
Me: "Eh, I only use HEAT on your sides and back, your front is too thick." [Emphasis added]

The derping KV-1 at close range is a problem for me when I am using the 57mm KV-1, but that's often answered by shooting them repeatedly in weak spots before they get to close range, which the 57mm has the accuracy for, tracking them and using cover at close range, and if I absolutely have to deal with them up close, angling and firing five to six shots into them before they can reload.

I'd still rather engage at range. I seem to have terrible luck with Soviet 85mm guns being horribly bouncy at anything longer than spitting distance, except for the 85mm D5T-85BM on the T-34-85 and the T-43.

Random lucky moment of last night: Killing a KV-5 at close range with the VK3601H... it bounced at point-blank, I shot its weak spots 11 times (alternating between R2 and the commander's cupola). Though oddly enough only two criticals counted. I say lucky because its ram attempt failed and I was pinned sideways against a hillside.
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Old 2013-05-21, 10:23   Link #6709
Spectacular_Insanity
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
The M4 is actually better armored than the Pz4, whereas the Pz4 is slightly more mobile, albeit there's tiny amounts of spaced armor of the Pz4's turret.
The Pz. III/IV has the best overall armor because both the sides and front are 60mm, making angling better because you don't risk the person simply aiming for your side armor and holing you regardless of your orientation. I survived a 2 v 1 against BOTH a M4 Sherman and a Pz. IV at the same time because more than half their shots ricocheted while I angled around a corner. They didn't angle. My shots didn't bounce. Even though they kept trying to duck behind the other side of the building (an indestructible one, we couldn't run through it), neither of them angled their tanks I assume because they figured they could kill me faster than I could kill them. Why the M4 didn't back off after I killed the Pz. IV is beyond me, but he stayed to fight while the majority of hits shots continued to bounce.

Sure, I only had about 126 hp after the fight ended iirc, but it goes to show you derp isn't everything. You need to remember to angle and use tactics.

For reference to those of you who don't know the armor stats off of your heads:
(Front/Sides/Rear)

M4 Sherman
Body: 51/38/38
Turret: 76/51/51
-Aim at the body, unless you can hit the sides or back of the turret. The sides of the Sherman are its main weak point in a face-to-face battle since they are not angled. Don't shoot the front of the turret unless your penetration is exceptionally high. This tank from the front has few weaknesses to speak of in terms of weak spots, so try to maneuver to hit the sides whenever possible.

Pz. IV
Body: 80/30/20
Turret: 50/30/30
-Aim at turret, sides, or the ports. Don't aim at the front; it will probably bounce unless you have lots of derp and it is facing you unangled. It is really weak against flankers so if you aim at the back the engine is a massive weak spot, even moreso than the other medium T5 tanks. Take advantage of things like elevation or enemy driver's maneuvering mistakes to capitalize on the weak side armor.

Pz. III/IV
Body: 60/60/40
Turret: 50/30/30
-Aim at turret's side if you can. If you have really high penetration, aim anywhere on the turret or at the ports. If you can take out the tracks, maneuver so they are not angled relative to you. It makes penetrating the armor on the body way easier. But the turret is probably the easier thing to penetrate, regardless.

I know it doesn't seem like much to people, and the 60 front armor would seem to be a disadvantage, but even when you're out in the open, without cover, if you angle correctly you can still bounce shots or reduce damage from a surprising number of things. Unless of course a KV-1S (or other hard-hitting things like TDs) trundles up and one-hits you with his derp gun (in which case your angling does nothing). >_>

Then again, Pz. III/IV is mostly good for countering lighter-armored mediums and light tanks. It doesn't have the derp power of the M4 or Pz. IV, so unlike M4's it's a lot harder to take out heavy tanks even if you have the drop on them. In that case, you have to either rely on teammates or your mobility (which is comparable to the Pz. IV, but ever so slightly better).
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Old 2013-05-21, 10:30   Link #6710
Tak
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
Clan Wars Campaigns

so anyone want to give a shot at obtain the M60? since it have 4 stages with different tier limit, we don't need all tier 10 to participate.
I am going to take a shot.

Unfortunately, this could not come at a worse time as many people are readying for graduation and finals...

- Tak
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Old 2013-05-21, 10:32   Link #6711
willx
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^ You're looking at the base armor stats. The M4's armor is sloped whereas the Pz4 armor is listed as showing only 1) the thickest part of the armor and not the average including large weak spots and 2) is completely flat.

And regarding the Pz3/4, yeah it's a good tank with great armor at its tier, but with the way HEAT works right now you should lose 80-90% of your engagements with fully loaded and equiped M4/Pz4s even if you're angling. Basically if they're not stupid, they should go around you, soak 2 of your hits, fire a HEAT round into your side and switch to HE after so there's no chance of a bounce if you're brawling with them.

The reload and aim time on the DERPs are not nearly as bad as you think when you have vertical stabilizers, GLD and rammer..
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Old 2013-05-21, 10:41   Link #6712
Spectacular_Insanity
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ You're looking at the base armor stats. The M4's armor is sloped whereas the Pz4 armor is listed as showing only 1) the thickest part of the armor and not the average including large weak spots and 2) is completely flat.

And regarding the Pz3/4, yeah it's a good tank with great armor at its tier, but with the way HEAT works right now you should lose 80-90% of your engagements with fully loaded and equiped M4/Pz4s even if you're angling. Basically if they're not stupid, they should go around you, soak 2 of your hits, fire a HEAT round into your side and switch to HE after so there's no chance of a bounce if you're brawling with them.

The reload and aim time on the DERPs are not nearly as bad as you think when you have vertical stabilizers, GLD and rammer..
I rarely run into people using HEAT rounds. If there's people using HEAT rounds, its usually the derping heavy tanks. HEAT rounds are abundant at higher tiers, usually T6 or T7 and up, but I usually get tons of ricochets in my Pz. III/IV.

The fact that you mention HEAT rounds is weird. Few people in tiers 5 and below bother to waste the cash they should be saving to buy their upgrades and the next tank.

And I seriously don't see many people using HE rounds. And if they are, they are definitely bouncing. If an AP round doesn't penetrate, neither will an HE, though it might do a tiny bit of splash damage.

Penetration > Damage in most situations. Damage doesn't help if it doesn't get past the armor.

And don't underestimate people's stupidity. I see so many people overextend. I used to be one of them, until I realized I can max my camouflage stats, lie in wait, then shoot people in the engines as they rush past me. I do that all the time in my Pz. I C.
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Old 2013-05-21, 10:50   Link #6713
willx
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^ Almost everyone that runs a Pz4/M4 run them with HEAT on their derp guns. Also, HE rounds do not need to penetrate to do damage, their damage is based on a cone forward from impact point based on splash less absorption by the armor. Even hitting the thickest part of your Pz3/4's armor a 10.5cm HE round will at least do 100-200 damage. A lucky penetration or a penetration from the side or rear will do in excess of 300-400.

Go ask EndlessKnack, Kimi, Teru, etc. about running HEAT on the Pz4/M4s. It's a common issue of being completely overpowered at its tier level and is one of the reasons that it is going to be reworked next patch.
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Old 2013-05-21, 11:08   Link #6714
Endless Knackwurst
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Join Date: Nov 2012
I wasn't a huge fan of derp HEAT, and on a Stop Having Fun Guys level I still am not, but in keeping up with the heavily-armed Joneses I've ended up gradually increasing the HEAT load in my derp tanks to the point where I have easily enough to cope with the typical match. I'll still use HE Common for long-range low-probability shots, to finish off open-topped or very weak opponents, or to damage things that are very bouncy or AT 2s, but that's about it.

People waste cash on HEAT at tier 5 because of winrate padding and because there's still a point where you have done enough damage to still make money while firing off 2800-credit shells (premium accounts help).

HEAT actually smoothes out the skill curve a bit... due to the near-one-shot-kill chance, a bad player with a HEAT load can do enough damage to offset, well, badness.
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Old 2013-05-21, 11:23   Link #6715
Spectacular_Insanity
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ Almost everyone that runs a Pz4/M4 run them with HEAT on their derp guns. Also, HE rounds do not need to penetrate to do damage, their damage is based on a cone forward from impact point based on splash less absorption by the armor. Even hitting the thickest part of your Pz3/4's armor a 10.5cm HE round will at least do 100-200 damage. A lucky penetration or a penetration from the side or rear will do in excess of 300-400.

Go ask EndlessKnack, Kimi, Teru, etc. about running HEAT on the Pz4/M4s. It's a common issue of being completely overpowered at its tier level and is one of the reasons that it is going to be reworked next patch.
In that case people definitely aren't using them because they are bouncing. If I'm getting hit, it's usually from getting flanked or getting one-hit derped by a heavy.

I can only really remember 2 or 3 times where I've gotten shanked by an M4 that was probably running HEAT rounds.

Also, to be clear, I don't usually face people head on. If I can flank and fall back, I usually do. The times I die are usually either one-hit derps from heavies or TDs, or me getting treaded and worn down because I've gotten critically hit somewhere important, such as my engine. But for those times when I have to have a slugging match, angling is my best option for survival, because of the Pz. III/IV better side armor. People forget it's not as weak as on other tanks, aim for it, then realize too late that not only is my tank's orientation angled, but in addition my armor on the front and sides are also angled naturally at a 45-degree angle.
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Old 2013-05-21, 11:36   Link #6716
Tak
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Spoiler for Stats for the M60:


Not all that great...

- Tak
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Old 2013-05-21, 12:16   Link #6717
Endless Knackwurst
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
In that case people definitely aren't using them because they are bouncing. If I'm getting hit, it's usually from getting flanked or getting one-hit derped by a heavy.
Actually, HEAT does bounce, which is why angling is still important. HE Common won't bounce, but its effect can be reduced by angling.
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Old 2013-05-21, 13:05   Link #6718
Tak
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst View Post
You need to research the D-54 to get to the T-62A, yes. The 10T2C is a better gun, but isn't actually required to unlock the tank...
I don't know why you want the 10T2C though. The trade off is an improvement of 0.3 better ROF for a penalty of -18 pen...

- Tak
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Old 2013-05-21, 13:07   Link #6719
Tempester
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Texas, USA
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectacular_Insanity View Post
And how are the French tanks that lead up to the Batchat? I'm kinda interested. I haven't even touched the french tank line yet.
I can't speak for tiers 2-4, since I haven't played them (I used free XP to skip them), but many people seem to hate playing the AMX 40, even calling it the worst vehicle in the game.

Tier 5: I think I've already told you how awesome the ELC AMX is. The only disadvantage it has is the low HP and a restricted turret arc that makes it play like a tank destroyer. Other than that, it has a high top speed, great acceleration, great traction, and an overpowered top gun for its tier.

Tier 6: The AMX 12t uses a worse top gun than the ELC, but in exchange has a fully rotational turret and an autoloader which allows you to dish out more damage in a short amount of time. I warn you, though: playing this tank is painful. Unless you're in a tier 7 match, you'll almost never get to carry a losing battle, and you should expect to do less damage than other tanks even when doing well. Also, I rarely scout with this or the 13 75 because of the poor acceleration; I usually hang around base or the support line for the first minute or so of the battle, waiting for an opportunity to flank someone.

Tier 7: The AMX 13 75 is pretty much the same thing as the 12t, with even the exact same top gun. I've had a slightly better experience with the 13 75, though. The drum reload is faster, about 15 seconds instead of 20 for the 12t. It also has more HP, which means most enemies can't one-shot you anymore. The matchmaking feels somewhat more comfortable; since tier 8 has more battles than tier 7 or tier 9 due to premium tanks, both the 12t and 13 75 see tier 8 battles a lot, and the 13 75 fares naturally better in them.

Haven't gotten to tiers 8-10 yet. My impression from other people is that the 13 90 is good or great (it gets the ELC's high pen gun with an autoloader), the Lorraine 40t is bad or okay, and the BatChat is awesome.
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Old 2013-05-21, 13:33   Link #6720
Endless Knackwurst
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I don't know why you want the 10T2C though. The trade off is an improvement of 0.3 better ROF for a penalty of -18 pen...
Aim time, accuracy, and weight are a little better also... though yeah, the lower penetration would make it one of the weakest Tier 9 medium guns.
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