[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GreyZone]

I wanted to post it in the images thread, but this was clearly a spoiler, so I'll put it in here:

This was in the most recent Episode of Hayore Nyaruko-san W:

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Was this refering to Umineko or was it a reference to another anime? I don't know but it was just striking me.



@Prototype909:
Yes you summarized it well. This is more or less the consensus on the meta world. But once in a while someone suddenly says "maybe the meta-world-events were in the message bottles after all". That we get no new answers is leading us to move in circles and we start to doubt things that are already long established in the hope that "then we finally get the 'true' answer to all things".
While I only joined shortly before EP8-part2 was translated completly, many others here are creating theories ever since Novel EP2 was released. And now suddenly no new information is coming and... well as you see we make no progress.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Well...

Spoiler for The name Yasu:

she did say it in blue apparently, lol, so I can't completely discard that possibility.

But I think that Jan-poo or perhaps someone else had a post some pages back saying that 'The culprit is Yasu' is a reference to some old-school game where there was a 'Watson' named Yasu who was actually the culprit the whole time, and it was a hugely shocking twist.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

Well...

Spoiler for The name Yasu:

she did say it in blue apparently, lol, so I can't completely discard that possibility.

But I think that Jan-poo or perhaps someone else had a post some pages back saying that 'The culprit is Yasu' is a reference to some old-school game where there was a 'Watson' named Yasu who was actually the culprit the whole time, and it was a hugely shocking twist.

Spoiler for Reference:

It's a reference to "The Portopia Serial Murder Case"

[GreyZone]

So, just to check it:

Is there, aside from the EP7 and EP8 Manga, anything new that will help us "find the truth"? Or is it still most likely that we will never even get the necessary clues to find the truth that we call "R-Prime"?

[Dormin]

So, just to check it:

Is there, aside from the EP7 and EP8 Manga, anything new that will help us "find the truth"? Or is it still most likely that we will never even get the necessary clues to find the truth that we call "R-Prime"?

I don't know anything true, but hell, I am very content with the situation right now. Ryu has showered us in the interviews with some statements that can be seen as evidence towards kyrie-culprit, so that is basically what I wanted all along. I know this can be caused by me wanting to reach a certain theory, but so far I am very pleased with the overall subtle approach towards the truth.

Besides if something "new" would turn up that would suddenly reveal the entire truth or make the truth easier to deduct would somehow seem like a cheap pull, just saying. The part of my love towards seacats is how many many things and details are left for complete subjective interpretation alone. I don't want someone telling me afterwards that shit, everything was actually wrong all along.

Anyway, there was one thing that I wanted to bring up: not relevant towards the truth and thus way out of current subject, but it concerns the entire interpretation of magic and the existence of witches.

The thing is that I feel very uncertain in what we should believe. At the same time I feel umineko has the "no magic" aspect, meaning that everything and everything can be explained metaphorically and no magic existing, but at the same time, I feel Ryu is trying to get us to accept

Spoiler for higurashi:

that some of the witches do exist: if I got this correctly, in order to higurashi even exist, we should at least accept bernkastel and lamdadelta as witches? Besides higurashi has the exactly same magic/mystery aspect that is later revealed to be partly "magic".

At the same time if we apply this kind of fusion of mystery and magic to umineko, somehow I feel like the entire bottom of the story somehow drops

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Dormin

The thing is that I feel very uncertain in what we should believe. At the same time I feel umineko has the "no magic" aspect, meaning that everything and everything can be explained metaphorically and no magic existing, but at the same time, I feel Ryu is trying to get us to accept

Spoiler for higurashi:

that some of the witches do exist: if I got this correctly, in order to higurashi even exist, we should at least accept bernkastel and lamdadelta as witches? Besides higurashi has the exactly same magic/mystery aspect that is later revealed to be partly "magic".

At the same time if we apply this kind of fusion of mystery and magic to umineko, somehow I feel like the entire bottom of the story somehow drops

What you describe doesn't necessarily derail the system of Umineko, it just calls for a certain perspective thinking. Umineko basically allows both, to explain everything without magic and to explain everything with magic.

Spoiler for Higurashi:

If we accept Higurashi to have happened and have a connection to Umineko, we basically accept the idea of witches existing. If witches do not exist, then Bernkastel, Lambdadelta and Featherine's story of having a shared past becomes irrelevant, because they are simply fictional beings serving as metaphors for processes within the story.

We could also draw an several hints in the story that Higurashi itself is a fictional story within the universe of Umineko (as referenced by Battler in EP1) and that any connection is actually only made by the characters thinking about this.

Technically, if we see Higurashi as a pocket universe to Umineko, then this is simply a world in which magic can exist, this does obstruct witches having no influence on the worlds in which Umineko takes place. So even a third, kind of half-way solution is possible.

[Dormin]

I'm not certain if this is a spoiler to anyone anymore, but if someone wants to have virgin eyes towards higurashi I thought it would be appropriate to spoiler

Spoiler for more higurashi related:

Actually I very much like the thought that higurashi was a certain "pocket universe", or maybe even a work of fiction inside umineko. As the meta implies that higurashi was a game involving lambda and bern (and maybe featherine, I don't remember so closely), outside the meta and magic there were many implications of higurashi being a work of fiction:

like haguruma pointed out, battler remember playing the game, and in manga maria is watching some show about bern on tv. Also I remember maria watching higurashi in the anime format.

If we believe meta to be completely fictional (and maybe even subconscious, like battler trying to recollect his memories), the entire involvement of bern and co. might be explained by the creator of meta mixing real-life elements and tv-shows into one hell of a delusion.

Thinking like this is somehow sad.

[GreyZone]

I don't believe it... if R07 intended the line of Battler's "Higurashi is my favorite Novel" to be some kind of foreshadowing for the value of the meta-world (for example that Ikuko made Tohya remember his memories by telling him things that made some kind of impact, like his favorite music, his favorite movie AND his favorite novel), then I am speechless. actually it IS the only clue we actually have about the Higurashi look-alikes aside from the "fanservice" and "possibly same universe" excuses, but on the other hand people who don't know Higurashi would be in an unfair position.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

To me, the meta exists. There can be as many parallells and references to other characters as possible, but I find it much more interesting if they (bern, lambda, etc) do exist on a different plane. Therefore, I'll stop thinking beyond that. May Beatrice have mercy on my soul.

[GuestSpeaker]

Rereading the manga, Bern did promise to find 1998 Ange the happiest world possible for her (ie didn't promise to bring her family back). It is interesting that both Featherine and Bern made that promise, maybe they both really did come through for her.

[haguruma]

Rereading the EP7 Tea Party for some reason I actually got reminded why I found some of the criticism against the bomb story so weird, because it totally works in the confines of how Umineko is set up, even when proposing a real world of Prime.

The island was first planned as a submarine base connected to the Kaiten project, but the plan was quickly scrapped and these parts are often left out of discussions I feel.

1. The new plan was for Rokkenjima to become one of the starting points of a pincer attack in case the Americans started landing in Tokyo bay (which could have happened). It was only then that the 900 tons of explosives were installed on Rokkenjima.
2. As soon as the war appeared to be lost they panicked what would happen if the Americans would find the explosives, so they set up the self destruct system around the island.
3. Kinzo knew about the system and left it in place (he did not install it himself)
4. This whole plan was top secret and would be a plan that was never found out by the Americans. So this would actually be a threat to world safety, as Japan would have knowingly violated protocol of the postwar period.

I know it could be questioned why they didn't at least force Kinzo to deinstall the self-destruct mechanism, but on the other hand, his knowledge about those explosives was likely what got him in good favor with the Japanese part of the government so nobody opposed him.

[Renall]

The problem there is just why they wouldn't have said something at the end of the war as part of the surrender. The government wouldn't have been in any more trouble for it than they would for any of the other stuff they built to conduct the war, so why worry about it? Now a scenario I could maybe see is this: Kinzo knows about the base and blackmails/bribes the military officials who know about it into silence. They never tell the American occupation force, which would be a pretty serious breach of protocol... although I highly doubt it's any threat to world security by 1996. It would be a scandal of sorts, but by 1986 the government in place in Japan has no significant connection to the government of 1945, and the Americans aren't going to care anymore (especially since it just blew up Japanese citizens, oh well!).

It's not like it's a war crime to stockpile munitions during a war, and while it would be a breach of disarmament to keep them, it isn't the government that had control over the weapons; it's a private citizen who more or less stole them. Bear in mind that Kinzo is in illegal possession of a defunct military base, a huge stash of government ordnance, and gold from a foreign government that, being WW2 Axis gold, was probably itself stolen. Pretty much nothing he owns is legally his, so all the government has to do is say "Welp, Kinzo Ushiromiya was a criminal dickhead, whaddayagonnado?"

The problem as I see it is there's a very specific area that appears to be outside the blast radius, and that's the submarine dock itself and the house built over it. In the 40s, there would've been nothing in the area where Kinzo eventually built the mansion and chapel. There do appear to be at least a couple entrances/exits from the tunnels on that side of the island, though. To me that fits more with the notion of a distant storage vault than a deliberate after-the-fact self-destruct system. I'm not sure if it's normal to store torpedos 1km away from your actual docking area though; seems like you'd end up wheeling things a long-ass way. However, maybe that makes sense as a safety precaution if you have an awful lot of them, I'm not an ordnance expert.

The other problem with "Kinzo left the system in place" is I doubt the gold room and the trigger clock were set up at the time the base was built. It makes more sense to me that, if we're going to accept that the explosives exist (which is absurd after 40 years but whatever, it's a story), it's probably just someone rigging them all to go off. No need to explain a complication in the form of even more explosives when the 900t of torpedos have to go off at some point anyway to create a blast that big.

Finally, if it was a top secret plan, why did an Italian military submarine get routed there at any point? Top secret tends to mean top secret; it's something you wouldn't even trust to your allies. They don't seem to have found it by mistake (if they had, "silencing" them would at least make sense), and I don't know what purpose they'd have in going there intentionally if it wasn't something someone was supposed to see or know about.

[battle22]

"And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, saying Genji never left the mansion after 24:00"

Guys, when did Erika get the time to go into Kinzo's study and do this scientific examinations? At this point, shouldn't she be in the guesthouse + she does not have the keys to the study.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by battle22

"And because of Erika's scientific investigation, further red had been added, saying Genji never left the mansion after 24:00"

Guys, when did Erika get the time to go into Kinzo's study and do this scientific examinations? At this point, shouldn't she be in the guesthouse + she does not have the keys to the study.

This red was used during the Court of Illusions. I'm not sure exactly when Erika performed her elite CSI skills, but since Bern is speaking retroactively, it's most likely that she did it later, on the second day, at some point in confirming Genji's movement. The whole thing is very vaguely described in terms of fingerprinting and mud on people's shoes and etc.

It has to have happened before she cornered Natsuhi in the parlor, though, since that's when she presented her super detailed evidence and reasoning to everybody.

Also, it's said that Kinzo's study was made openly available to her to rummage through - it's not like the survivor group can't access the room - even without a key, they can wedge the door open from when they enterred via the window.

[Dormin]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I don't believe it... if R07 intended the line of Battler's "Higurashi is my favorite Novel" to be some kind of foreshadowing for the value of the meta-world (for example that Ikuko made Tohya remember his memories by telling him things that made some kind of impact, like his favorite music, his favorite movie AND his favorite novel), then I am speechless. actually it IS the only clue we actually have about the Higurashi look-alikes aside from the "fanservice" and "possibly same universe" excuses, but on the other hand people who don't know Higurashi would be in an unfair position.

Considering umineko as stand-alone (and I'd say it very much is, as the relation to higurashi is couple very subtle references), you are right when claiming that if higurashi references inside meta are meant as possible hints towards the "solution of meta" (I don't know if Ryu ever meant meta to be explained with being something, rather than leaving it completely up for the debate) it would be unfair towards people that have no knowledge in higurashi. Therefore the claim that battler/someone constructed meta and some of the characters as illusions mixing fictional works would mean that Ryu expected every reader to actually get the references.

But hell, even if it is not true and the truth of meta's existence is never meant to be perfectly solved, it would make perfect sense. I doubt, as you said, that any references are meant to be hints because that would be pretty bad story-telling, but still, it goddamn makes sense.

So I'd say I actually grew to like this theory of meta's existence very much, even though it is clearly just an interesting theory. If we want to believe in totally fictional meta, the entire aspect backs the delusion in a very psychological way. Aside obvious flaws in theory, I'd say it is at least worth thinking about.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Rereading the EP7 Tea Party for some reason I actually got reminded why I found some of the criticism against the bomb story so weird, because it totally works in the confines of how Umineko is set up, even when proposing a real world of Prime.

The island was first planned as a submarine base connected to the Kaiten project, but the plan was quickly scrapped and these parts are often left out of discussions I feel.

1. The new plan was for Rokkenjima to become one of the starting points of a pincer attack in case the Americans started landing in Tokyo bay (which could have happened). It was only then that the 900 tons of explosives were installed on Rokkenjima.
2. As soon as the war appeared to be lost they panicked what would happen if the Americans would find the explosives, so they set up the self destruct system around the island.
3. Kinzo knew about the system and left it in place (he did not install it himself)
4. This whole plan was top secret and would be a plan that was never found out by the Americans. So this would actually be a threat to world safety, as Japan would have knowingly violated protocol of the postwar period.

I know it could be questioned why they didn't at least force Kinzo to deinstall the self-destruct mechanism, but on the other hand, his knowledge about those explosives was likely what got him in good favor with the Japanese part of the government so nobody opposed him.

Maybe nobody else knew. Maybe the original plans for the base got misfiled. Maybe Rokkenjima was one person's pet project, and he died at some point, or changed his mind. (I get the feeling that Rokkenjima had been mostly forgotten even back while the war was going on.)

[Patchwork Chimera]

I re-read the novels recently, what with the Chiru voice/PS3 Pc patch going out, and I noticed something about that Trick or Magic ending.

Spoiler for Magic:

*Ange doesn't jump from the skycraper because 'a witch said that nobody can survive something like that'
*Ange leaves everything to Okonogi, and there are some subtle hints of her doing it to appease the man and avoid to be killed. It was a very passive-agressive move.
*She admits that the truth doesn't really matter, but takes to heart the reality rewriting that Maria taught her and tries to spread it everywhere.
*It opens the Tea Party, which is basically a 'where are they now' for the fantasy crew. It also opens the ??? with her and Battler's not really heartwarming reunion.

Spoiler for Trick:

*Ange jumps from the skycraper because a witch told her.
*Ange continues in the self-destructive travel. It's implied that all what we saw in EP 1-4 really happened, including the visit to Hachijo (I see this as important) where Amakusa went to buy the supicious weapons.
*She kills Amakusa drawing a convincing reasoning about him probably setting an ambush to off her (It's basically the universal answer to the how she died in EP4). Then she rides to the sunset in a white boat... to nowhere apparently.
*She herself admits that the truth doesn't mean jackshit. She only goes in a psycopath way to dealing with umpeasant things.
*She isn't reunited with Battler

So, the things that happen in both places are

Spoiler for ==:

*Ange stops obsessing over Rokkenjima, and the value of 1986's truth.
*Ange dodges a bullet, Amakusa's bullet if we're to believe.
*Ange kills herself and is reborn as 'a witch'.

I think the Trick ending actally fits better with EP 1-4 reasoning about the hints of her actions after Eva's death. If she had let go of the truth pre-skydiving, she wouldn't have any reason to visit Hachijo. Sadly the scene isn't properly fleshed out to provide a real alternative ending, but as a 'goat-theathergoer snack' with more mistery and 'endless' reasoning (kind of what the readers who insist on finding any kind of sense in Umineko would like). No continuity or logic story wise, though. How will she support herself? Will she become a detective or what? And how is she going to keep the illusion of her death, if sooner or later she's going to need money and to interact with society?

I... really didn't like EP8 in relation with the rest of Umineko's premise. It was basically only an OMK spinoff with nothing for the thinkers but some insipid half-assed puzzles and thinly veiled insults.
PS3 only backgrounds on the battles are badass, though.

[Renall]

I would quite honestly have liked to have seen an entirely different Tea Party for the Trick ending. I mean, it's not really an ending given the vast differences in content between Trick and Magic. But ep8 does appear to have been pretty badly rushed, so that might be part of it.

[ndqanh_vn]

I am surprised at how active this box still is after Umineko ended. (Granted, there are just usual faces around here.) After it ends, sometimes I wonder and consider about what had happened, but cannot make a solution that satisfy me or save my image of Ryukishi as a good mystery writer. (He is very good with suspense and horror, but after Umineko I guess mystery is just not his strong point)


After all, I had thought of a theory about the person that Eva, Ange, Beatrice and Battler has been trying to cover for. It might be Geogre, maybe Battler and family, but those solution don’t really satisfy me for moral issue. As Christie wrote in “Ordeal by innocence”, the truth could be devastating, the truth could kill everyone’s future, but it must be exposed, the culprit must be judged, because if it is kept hidden, the innocent people would be suffered. Therefore, the answer that there is one mastermind could not satisfy me, because no ways in hell I could show sympathy to EP8 then.


Therefore I propose…or rather suggest, as what I propose lacks evidents to be the truth (I cannot find enough time to sit and play 8 games again – much as I like Umineko, some section is just dead boring): There are not a single culprit in Prime. Everybody is guilty. Everybody kills someone, and there’s no mastermind behind it.


1. I think, Yasu is always the culprit of the gameboard. It is not hard to propose how did she (the character) killed everyone in the story. But in Prime, I think all she did is an innocent murder game. She bribed some of the parents and told the servants into this. The part about the bomb, I think she did not flip it. It is just a challenge for the three cousins, so why does she have to consider to make the whole islands goes KABOOM?

2. The murder game happened, and something was wrong. The atmosphere is just too toxic: too stressful, too suspicious. People who did not know it was a game start to get paranoid, and people who knew started to suspect whether it was just a game. In the end somebody snapped (I put a bet on Rosa or Natsuhi, those poor women had always been on the verge of insanity) and people started to kill each other for real, some for greed, some for being paranoid and some only for self defence.

3. Yasu got scared that everything spiralled out of her control. Unable to save people or stop them from killing each other, she let the bomb go off to erase all evidence after releasing Legend and Turn in the ocean to put all the blame on “Beatrice”. Those messages are written quickly because they are based on notes of various scenario Yasu had thought of for her mystery game.

The reason for Angle to be so broken when she learned the truth is not his parents to be the murderers, but they and everybody had been killed for such a stupid envinronment, that there are no right and wrong, there are no “villian” for her to pour all her hatred into like Eva, because what was there is just a family that is broken beyong help.

Eva probably guessed that, so she kept silent. It is better to hate somebody than to know the truth, so she kept silent for Ange’s sake. Or she felt the whole things is uncomfortable too and wanted to tell Ange later. But then the relationship has gone to sour for it to work out between them.

It is just my thoughts, really.

Anyways, I love you guys, really. Your discussion is always interesting to read. One of my most interesting experiences while reading Umineko is to follow this thread. As a writer struggling to have her books out, I really learn a lot from your discussion.

Originally Posted by Renall

I would quite honestly have liked to have seen an entirely different Tea Party for the Trick ending. I mean, it's not really an ending given the vast differences in content between Trick and Magic. But ep8 does appear to have been pretty badly rushed, so that might be part of it.

I understand this feeling, it's like he's trying to force us to choose "magic", since the trick ending is obviously a bad, bad, horribly bad ending ...The whole "multiple endings" there is just for decoration somehow...

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

I understand this feeling, it's like he's trying to force us to choose "magic", since the trick ending is obviously a bad, bad, horribly bad ending ...The whole "multiple endings" there is just for decoration somehow...

The funny thing is thought, if you look at it another way, the endings make sense.

It was our own assumption that "trick" and "magic" refer to our opinion on whether the events on Rokkenjima, were "magic" or "tricks".

However in the end the actual meaning was the ending itself. "Magic Ending" would be a "magical ending", as the name itself already says. It does not say "happy" or "bad" ending. It simply is a miracalous ending.
On the other hand the "Trick Ending" is just that: An ending that tricks you (and Ange).

Beatrice's show with the sweet (and her suddenly changing her presenting hand) that brought up this question can be also seen like that. The question wasn't if it was accomplished by magical powers or a sleight of hand, but the question was about the INTENTION of Beatrice.

Magic implies that it is supposed to bring out curiosity and excitment and leave the audience in awe. The presentation itself was the goal.
However Trick implies that actively fooling the audience for achieving a certain selfish goal is the motive. The presentation is just a means for another goal.


So my interpretation actually REVERSES the view on everything. "Trick" is actually the thing that hides more than "Magic".
And this also brings me back to Eva's diary: While it contains truth, it is also subjective. Also the personal view of Eva may have deteriorated the truth in it, resulting in false conclusions. It is a half truth or a "Trick".