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Old 2012-06-25, 21:23   Link #41
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Wow, I got a lot of input from your posts, Relentless, since I’ve never pay any attention to the HD upscale process. I also agree with Sensei. Chobits’ Blu-ray image is soft as hell:

Spoiler for Chobits Blu-ray screenshots:

Why bother with 1080p or Blu-ray if those are the kind of images you’ll get?
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Old 2012-06-25, 22:20   Link #42
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Why bother with 1080p or Blu-ray if those are the kind of images you’ll get?
Well, because chances are that it's still probably as good or better than the DVDs (which even at highest bitrate could have had unnecessary artifacting), which are probably out-of-print anyway. Of course, modern anime made in HD (even in 720p) will look a lot better than that.
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Old 2012-06-25, 22:52   Link #43
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@relentlessflame

Of course itís okay, only if the DVD is already out of print or if the Blu-ray worth the same or less than the DVD. If the DVD is still available and the Blu-ray charges you a lot more for that kinda image, I wonít bother with the BD.

Of course, I mainly talk about upconverted anime from early 2000s. Anime from 90s & 80s look great on 1080p (Cardcaptor Sakura, Martian Successor Nadeshiko, Zeta Gundam, Gundam F-91, Charís Counterattack, which I experienced firsthand). How come the images of those anime are way sharper than early 2000 anime?
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Old 2012-06-26, 00:59   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
How come the images of those anime are way sharper than early 2000 anime?
Because, as SeijiSensei alluded to earlier, the masters are for those older shows are on film. Film has more detail than was originally captured in the TV broadcast, and so can handle being "upscaled" more gracefully. For the shows that are composited/mastered digitally (in the early-mid 2000s particularly), the extra detail of the drawings/backgrounds were lost when they were brought into the computer at TV/DVD resolution. That's why the upscales there will tend to be blurry and the images interpolated, whereas the film-based anime will look more sharp.
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Old 2012-06-26, 01:10   Link #45
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Is there a huge difference in quality between 720p and 1080p? I specifically mean those released by fansub groups (if the forum rules don't forbid asking such a question). My computer screen is only 17 inch, so probably won't notice the difference between 720p and 1080p.

When sub groups release both avi and an HD 720p version, I always download and store both.
I did notice that 720p HD looks "cleaner" and sound a little better than the avi.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2012-06-26 at 02:22.
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Old 2012-06-26, 01:11   Link #46
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I guess early-mid 2000s is the dark age of digital anime then. Gundam SEED is one of them.
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Old 2012-06-26, 05:11   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
Is there a huge difference in quality between 720p and 1080p? I specifically mean those released by fansub groups (if the forum rules don't forbid asking such a question). My computer screen is only 17 inch, so probably won't notice the difference between 720p and 1080p.
Well, you know, that is the topic of this thread, so I think the answers you seek are found within. But the tl;dr answer is basically: not very much most of the time, because the art itself is rarely more than 720p. It doesn't have much to do with the size of your screen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I guess early-mid 2000s is the dark age of digital anime then. Gundam SEED is one of them.
Well, they just weren't thinking ahead. It was an era that saw the amount of productions explode thanks to the lower costs of digital production techniques, but in the process they didn't really plan ahead to what would happen when DVD wasn't good enough any more. You might argue that they didn't really have to because most TV anime rotates in and out of the public consciousness fairly quickly, so "good enough quality" was really good enough. That's just like how most shows today are animated in 720p, even though we'll no doubt have higher resolutions down the road; it's good enough for today, but won't look great on our 4k displays. Oh well; the techniques used are a sign of the times too.
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Old 2012-06-26, 05:48   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
When sub groups release both avi and an HD 720p version, I always download and store both.
I did notice that 720p HD looks "cleaner" and sound a little better than the avi.
720p (especially Blu-ray version) is not just "cleaner" but "HELLUVA cleaner" than avi .

If your computer can play the HD 720p mkv/mp4 files and you has a lot of space to spend, I suggest you to drop the avi episodes completely since their function is already cease to exist for you (assuming you fulfill the criteria I mentioned above).

Better yet, if someday you have an LCD TV with more than 20 inch screen and a PS3/Blu-ray Player, youíll be able to play those HD 720p anime of yours with your player via flashdisk/harddisk and able to enjoy the awesomeness of watching HD anime on your TV screen. Remember that LCD TV & Blu-Player has become cheaper and cheaper nowadays. Avi files are only good for tube screen imo. They even look worse than your standard DVD image.
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Old 2012-06-26, 06:28   Link #49
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Quote:
But the tl;dr answer is basically: not very much most of the time, because the art itself is rarely more than 720p. It doesn't have much to do with the size of your screen.
@relentless

I thank you for the information. That saved me some time and effort.
No need to redownload some things.

Quote:
720p (especially Blu-ray version) is not just "cleaner" but "HELLUVA cleaner" than avi .

If your computer can play the HD 720p mkv/mp4 files and you has a lot of space to spend, I suggest you to drop the avi episodes completely since their function is already cease to exist for you (assuming you fulfill the criteria I mentioned above).

Better yet, if someday you have an LCD TV with more than 20 inch screen and a PS3/Blu-ray Player, you’ll be able to play those HD 720p anime of yours with your player via flashdisk/harddisk and able to enjoy the awesomeness of watching HD anime on your TV screen. Remember that LCD TV & Blu-Player has become cheaper and cheaper nowadays. Avi files are only good for tube screen imo. They even look worse than your standard DVD image.
@Obelisk

My computer is a little old, but fortunately it can play 720p without lagging. Thanks for the info. LCD seems nice, maybe someday I can afford that. The time I bought my monitor the 17 inch LCD is 7,000 pesos, while the non LCD-17 inch is 4,000. Being a little short on cash I settled for the non-LCD monitor, it performs well enough I guess. *gives poor old monitor a pat ^^

Oh, and the avi files are used by my portable DVD player. It accepts flash drives and is my method of sharing anime with friends who don't own a computer. Shared Madoka Magica and Ore no Imouto with it.
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Old 2012-08-19, 15:09   Link #50
woodearth
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List for movies?

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
One site that is useful is the AniBin Blog (Japanese), which analyses the TV broadcasts of shows to determine if they were upscaled and what the native resolution of the actual source appears to be (using FFT). There's a list of currently airing anime that's of relevance. Of note, other than pure CG works, the only anime airing now that contains full-frame 1080p/i content is the OP and ED of Hyouka.
Is there a similar list for movies? Or can we pretty much assume that since it being shown on a very big screen, the production will target at least 1080p (or 2k).
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Old 2012-08-19, 18:05   Link #51
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Is there a similar list for movies? Or can we pretty much assume that since it being shown on a very big screen, the production will target at least 1080p (or 2k).
I think it honestly depends on the movie. Some anime movies are really just regular HD productions that they put on a theatre roadshow, and some of these are produced no differently than the average TV series. (IIRC, Kara no Kyoukai, for example, appears to have been produced in 720p.) On the other hand, I seem to recall reading that the K-On! movie was produced in 1080p.

If it's a major movie production like something from Ghibli, though, you can definitely expect full cinema treatment.

I don't know if there's a listing, though. Mostly, I just listen to the analysis done by other Blu-Ray collectors, since it's unlikely we'll be able to watch the movies until the Blu-Rays are released anyway.
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Old 2012-08-19, 22:52   Link #52
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I've had my opinion changed my this thread. If the source is originally 720p and it's just being upscaled, then you might as well download the 720p version and just allow your system to do the upscaling.

One of the nice things about anime (and animation in general, as compared with "live action") is that there's not really a ton of detail to begin with. You can tell when the lines are sharp or blurred, but you don't notice an absence of, say, skin features or cloth textures.

The argument for 1080p is about future-proofing. Look at the high pixel-density ("retina") displays that Apple is coming out with; it's only a matter of time before over monitor and television manufacturers do something similar. One would expect that larger videos will handle upscaling to those resolutions more gracefully than smaller videos. In practice I don't think it's a huge issue, though. I've played 720p anime episodes on my iPad 3 (the iPad's resolution is roughly 2x larger than a 720p video) and it looked fine to me. I didn't scrutinize it, and it's true that the physical screen size isn't terribly large, but it didn't look particularly different compared with when I watch on my 15", 1440x900 standard screen.

I'll be sticking with 720p.
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Old 2012-08-20, 09:24   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
Is there a huge difference in quality between 720p and 1080p? I specifically mean those released by fansub groups (if the forum rules don't forbid asking such a question). My computer screen is only 17 inch, so probably won't notice the difference between 720p and 1080p.

When sub groups release both avi and an HD 720p version, I always download and store both.
I did notice that 720p HD looks "cleaner" and sound a little better than the avi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
720p (especially Blu-ray version) is not just "cleaner" but "HELLUVA cleaner" than avi .

If your computer can play the HD 720p mkv/mp4 files and you has a lot of space to spend, I suggest you to drop the avi episodes completely since their function is already cease to exist for you (assuming you fulfill the criteria I mentioned above).

Better yet, if someday you have an LCD TV with more than 20 inch screen and a PS3/Blu-ray Player, you’ll be able to play those HD 720p anime of yours with your player via flashdisk/harddisk and able to enjoy the awesomeness of watching HD anime on your TV screen. Remember that LCD TV & Blu-Player has become cheaper and cheaper nowadays. Avi files are only good for tube screen imo. They even look worse than your standard DVD image.
Ok let's just clear some things up.

The first one is that screen size doesn't have much to do with resolution! Screen size is measured in inches (or centimetres sometimes but that's mostly for TVs) and it's just how physically large your monitor actually is. While that's important it's not directly relevant to this discussion. To just tackle the subject lightly let's say you should choose the size of your TV/Monitor to be just large enough so you can see all of it at your usual viewing distance but that's not all it takes and stuff like the type of content you're watching matters as well. Like I said, it's not really relevant to this discussion.

One thing that is important is how resolution relates to the screen size AND your viewing distance. The further away from the screen you are the LESS resolution you actually need to have a nice viewing experience (aka: being unable to see individual pixels). This means that while 720p is great for your 32 inch TV in the living room (where you stand far away from the screen) it's absolute crap when looking at a 24 inch monitor on your desk.

The second thing I want to clear up is that the file format doesn't have much to do with the video encoding. avi, ogm, mkv and mp4 are all file formats (or more precisely containers) and don't indicate much in relation to video encoding. Video encoding is the job of the video codec which range from the old Mpeg2 and DivX (and XviD, mpeg4) to the newer h.264 with stuff like Ogg Video somewhere around there. Nowadays most mp4/mkv files are encoded using h.264 which is a bit hard on old (over 5 years) computers. Imho the file size and video quality gains in h.264 mean that there's not much reason to choose older codecs over it nowadays but on the other hand there's not much reason to drop XviD on low resolution encodes since the gains aren't that visible in those cases. But that's beside the topic.

(and yes, I know some of what I said isn't 100% correct but it's good enough for now imho.)

Back on topic:

Relentlessflame basically said all that needs to be said: most modern TV anime is originally drawn in 720p resolution or close to it so there's no reason to pick 1080p over it. If you go for the larger resolution all you're getting is a questionable quality upscale and larger file size for what is most likely a lower quality version of the 720p one. In regards to movies the situation is a bit more complex since they may have been drawn using a larger resolution to target the large movie screens and 1080p may be worth it.

Bottom line what I'm going to add is this: Stick with the resolution that's closer to the original one for the source material (720p for TV shows usually, Movies it's on a case by case basis). The reason is quite simple: doing your own upscale virtually always trumps having it done for you by the broadcaster. Technology evolves and when someone comes up with a better upscale algorithm it's best to use it on a clean(er) source.

As for me my CPU isn't usually up to snuff to play 1080p content so I stick to 720p unless it's a visually impressive movie that I really want to watch on my living room. Then I put my laptop into overdrive and use every optimization under the sun to get it to play the movie (XP + CoreAVC + MPC - every background process I can disable). it also helps that I'm up to just over 3TB of shows and can't afford to keep the collection growing at such exponential rate (since even if I manage to import the shows from the US or UK I still keep the fansubs).
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Old 2012-08-20, 10:30   Link #54
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
Ok let's just clear some things up.

The first one is that screen size doesn't have much to do with resolution! Screen size is measured in inches (or centimetres sometimes but that's mostly for TVs) and it's just how physically large your monitor actually is. While that's important it's not directly relevant to this discussion. To just tackle the subject lightly let's say you should choose the size of your TV/Monitor to be just large enough so you can see all of it at your usual viewing distance but that's not all it takes and stuff like the type of content you're watching matters as well. Like I said, it's not really relevant to this discussion.

One thing that is important is how resolution relates to the screen size AND your viewing distance. The further away from the screen you are the LESS resolution you actually need to have a nice viewing experience (aka: being unable to see individual pixels). This means that while 720p is great for your 32 inch TV in the living room (where you stand far away from the screen) it's absolute crap when looking at a 24 inch monitor on your desk.

The second thing I want to clear up is that the file format doesn't have much to do with the video encoding. avi, ogm, mkv and mp4 are all file formats (or more precisely containers) and don't indicate much in relation to video encoding. Video encoding is the job of the video codec which range from the old Mpeg2 and DivX (and XviD, mpeg4) to the newer h.264 with stuff like Ogg Video somewhere around there. Nowadays most mp4/mkv files are encoded using h.264 which is a bit hard on old (over 5 years) computers. Imho the file size and video quality gains in h.264 mean that there's not much reason to choose older codecs over it nowadays but on the other hand there's not much reason to drop XviD on low resolution encodes since the gains aren't that visible in those cases. But that's beside the topic.

(and yes, I know some of what I said isn't 100% correct but it's good enough for now imho.)

*snip*
Dextro, Iíll agree with all you said since Iím not really a techy person and you know more than I do. What I said earlier is related to Liddo-kunís question: He distinguished between HD 720 (I guess he meant either HD MKV or HD MP4) and AVI (most probably he meant the non-HD ones). Thus, I only answered it based on my own experience after comparing it many times since MKV files became popular. The result: almost all (non-HD) AVI video files that I encountered look worse than the HD MKV files. So far, never once I found a non-HD AVI version that looks as good as the HD MKV version (let alone better). Thatís all I can say. I donít know the exact details.

As for the >20 inch TV size that I mentioned, thatís just example. Of course I know that TV size has nothing to do with resolution (your distance in watching it has). Thatís why I gave the >20í TV example as the ideal watch in the regular living room, not on the desk.

And yeah, Relentless already said it all. So, no need for me to continue this.
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Old 2013-06-03, 17:41   Link #55
kamil88
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Nice to meet you all, could you tell me please one thing? I have 32 inch Sony Bravia KDL-32BX320 (For PS3) and Samsung Syncmaster B1930 monitor (for PC) If i get bigger monitor, and 40 inch TV, will i be able to tell difference while watching 1080p anime/movie/game?
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Old 2013-06-03, 18:51   Link #56
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I have 32 inch Sony Bravia KDL-32BX320 (For PS3) and Samsung Syncmaster B1930 monitor (for PC) If i get bigger monitor, and 40 inch TV, will i be able to tell difference while watching 1080p anime/movie/game?
It depends on what you're watching. To this day, most anime still isn't animated in 1080p, but it's starting to happen slowly. But, neither your TV nor your monitor can handle 1080p right now. I'd say that at least 1080p monitors are pretty cheap these days, so may be worth the upgrade. (Heck, you could go dual-monitor -- I can't work without it. And frankly, I couldn't work with a 1366 x 768 display... I have too many windows open at once...)

I'm not sure what games you're playing on your PS3, but you'd probably notice the improvement for some games with a 1080p TV as well. And certainly, if you're watching live-action movies on Blu-Ray, you'd notice an improvement there too. Maybe not night-and-day (like going from SD to HD), but still a step-up.

Really, I'd say to just keep an eye open for deals. As far as anime goes, the resolution keeps increasing, so the content will certainly come along even if it's not quite there yet.
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Old 2013-06-04, 14:36   Link #57
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I swear this seasons Valvrave the Liberator seems to be drawn at 1080p because whenever I've had the chance to watch it at 720 which I normally do its looked a bit washed out muddy and pixelated but when I've watched at 1080p its look great. I even tested the recent episode by watching a 1080p stream then a 720 one and it looked a lot less inviting on the latter. Shingeki no Kyojin another high budget show doesn't have this problem and looks as good either way, neither does Suisei no Gargantia.
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Old 2013-06-04, 14:46   Link #58
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I personally wouldn't stress myself out getting 1080p. Heck, lately I have been more and more prone to watching anime on my Note 2 (a 720p smartphone), and I personally don't mind despite me owning several 40+ inch TVs.

As for PS3, I thought most games run on 720p? Just doing a quick rundown of the three PS3 games on my desk (Ni no Kuni, Rune Factory, Tales of Graces) they're all 720p. All the games I remember playing it on are also 720p if my memory serves correct. So if gaming is what you do most own, don't be in a hurry to upgrade.

Movies on the otherhand, is pretty obvious in the improvement.

So yeah, depends on what you do the most. If you watch a lot of BD movies then go for it, otherwise just wait for deals (Black Friday deals are the ones to look for if you live in USA or can get there with relative ease)
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Old 2013-06-04, 15:03   Link #59
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
As for PS3, I thought most games run on 720p? Just doing a quick rundown of the three PS3 games on my desk (Ni no Kuni, Rune Factory, Tales of Graces) they're all 720p. All the games I remember playing it on are also 720p if my memory serves correct. So if gaming is what you do most own, don't be in a hurry to upgrade.
Yes, most games on the PS3 and 360 run at 720p. Back in 2005/2006 when those consoles were released they just didn't have the capability to push enough pixels to fill a 1080p picture. The problem isn't processing power btw, it's mostly memory: 256/512mb of ram at 2005 speeds just wasn't enough to get a 1080p picture for most games.
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Old 2013-06-04, 16:31   Link #60
Folenfant
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
I personally wouldn't stress myself out getting 1080p. Heck, lately I have been more and more prone to watching anime on my Note 2 (a 720p smartphone), and I personally don't mind despite me owning several 40+ inch TVs.

As for PS3, I thought most games run on 720p? Just doing a quick rundown of the three PS3 games on my desk (Ni no Kuni, Rune Factory, Tales of Graces) they're all 720p. All the games I remember playing it on are also 720p if my memory serves correct. So if gaming is what you do most own, don't be in a hurry to upgrade.

Movies on the otherhand, is pretty obvious in the improvement.

So yeah, depends on what you do the most. If you watch a lot of BD movies then go for it, otherwise just wait for deals (Black Friday deals are the ones to look for if you live in USA or can get there with relative ease)
Actually Tales of Graces started as a Wii game so technically it's a 480p upscale on the PS3. Still looks pretty good though.
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