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Old 2013-05-31, 22:40   Link #301
Tempester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Wait... what? You don't consider SSY and Madoka Magica deep and philosophical? There's loads of depth and philosophy in both of those shows!

You're really selling the intellectual appeal of these two shows short.
Yeah, I didn't say that right. Sorry.

What I meant that you don't need to delve into the philosophical themes to enjoy these anime properly. They have stories that can be taken and appreciated at face value. Whatever metaphorical imagery depicted is unimportant for the overall story. There may be important social and philosophical themes (I know SSY has them, but not sure about Madoka Magica), but they're not required to enjoy the story.

Contrast this to Serial Experiments Lain, Revolutionary Girl Utena, and Mawaru Penguindrum. These anime always throw strange, nonsensical situations at you, and it's up to you to interpret them. What does Akio's car represent? What is the child broiler? These are all important parts of the story, but they don't have an explicit meaning that is obvious to everyone. Hence, they're "deep". Sometimes too deep for me to the point that they make me feel like an idiot for not getting them. Watching something like SSY or Madoka Magica feels simple and non-challenging compared to that.
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Old 2013-05-31, 22:41   Link #302
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Keep an ear open for what other people think are good shows, and ask for suggestions on this forum.
A lot of yuri sucks.... Man, forget what I said... I'm out of here.
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Old 2013-05-31, 22:44   Link #303
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
A lot of yuri sucks.... Man, forget what I said... I'm out of here.
Yuri?

Did I miss something here?

I didn't recommend any yuri shows.
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Old 2013-05-31, 22:50   Link #304
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@Tempterster - Ok, thanks for the clarification. I understand where you're coming from now.

Yes, it's true that Madoka Magica and SSY have stories that are easily comprehensible and can be taken at face value. Their depth and philosophy is more in the actual dialogue than in any symbolic imagery, imo (although both shows have a little bit of such imagery).

Yes, they're not as interpretive in nature as Serial Experiments Lain, Revolutionary Girl Utena, and Mawaru Penguindrum are.
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Old 2013-06-01, 00:10   Link #305
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
As for you're point about bad ones being more common I think that is incorrect. Rather the lack of internet meant that the really bad ones never made it outside of Japan. I'm sure there were plenty of horrible anime during the 80s and 90s.

The situation right now is that you can't just say "Oh I like anime, lets watch whatever is on." You have to actually search through the shows, watch out for the little signals that a show is going to suck and drop those shows. Keep an ear open for what other people think are good shows, and ask for suggestions on this forum.

No different from any other medium. Movies, general tv shows, you pretty much have to do that for everything nowdays.
I couldn't agree more with this post. Comparing a carefully-crafted "Greatest Hits for International Audiences" selection with the complete firehose of all content is a sure way to realize that the majority of what's out there probably isn't for you. And that's totally normal. When I used to have cable, I could flip through 100+ channels and find nothing I wanted to watch. Most of the time there isn't a movie that interests me at the theatre. I scan through the radio stations, and only one or two sound interesting. And I play only a tiny fraction of the video games out there, even though I like gaming well enough. Anime as a medium isn't exempt from the normal selection process. But still, you don't necessarily see people exclaim "I give up on all movies!" or "I give up on all music!" just because they don't like a lot of what's out there and popular at the time. I still think this tends to be more a sign of the person's prior viewing habits, particularly if they were either "overdosing" or just didn't realize the way increased access/availability would necessitate a change in their selection process. Then you get "burn out". (Perhaps that's a more appropriate title than "growing out of anime", but it reflects the perspective of the viewer, who often believes "it's the content that's the problem, not me.")
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Old 2013-06-02, 06:02   Link #306
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Originally Posted by NK_500 View Post
Back then when I was a kid I used to see some good shows like Rurouni Kenshin, Slam Dunk, Ranma 1/2 and Cardcaptor Sakura and today where these shows go? Instead what I got are generic action/ecchi/harem/moe shows for guys and generic romance/bishounen/reverse-harem/shouta shows for girls. Now anime industry have turned into something like junk food one. Produced in mass quantities, cheap, having little lasting values and can be quickly forgotten as you digest them. Yeah it's true Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood and Hunter x Hunter but it just not enough. At least for me those shows are good but nowhere as "masterpiece" and "exemplary" as most people claimed. Clannad is probably the last show that actually plot-driven despite being less than 50 episodes long(both seasons).
I noted a pattern with the shows that you've held up as being high-quality: they were all incredibly, unusually long (Cardcaptor Sakura was around 70 episodes, Rurouni Kenshin had around 90 episodes, Slam Dunk was around 100, Ranma was around 160, and all of those counts exclude things like movies and OVAs).

I don't feel that a show needs to be more than 24 episodes in order to be memorable or have an impact, but if someone prefers longer series I think that's perfectly understandable. Those long series were never the standard, though; one seems to arise every few years but otherwise it has always been series that were 11-13 episodes or 24-26 episodes in length.
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Old 2013-06-02, 08:21   Link #307
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And honestly I can't see why those aforementioned shows should be considered better than FMA, Death Note, Monster or Nana.

For example the large amount of half-baked fillers in Ranma 1/2 really diminished the overall worth of the series. I'd rather read the manga any day. And it is almost universally recognized that the best part of Rurouni Kenshin it's the 6 OAV, which you can watch independently from the series.

One thing is to claim that you liked those series better, but stating that those were "masterpieces" and "exemplary", in spite of their many flaws and implying that none of the most recent series reach to their level seems to suggest some kind of objectivity that it is neither supported by critics nor by popularity.
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Old 2013-06-02, 12:01   Link #308
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Sounds like we're in that cycle of confusing "better","masterpiece", etc. with "shows I liked". There are modern and contemporary series that easily meet/exceed many of the so-called "jewels of yore" - they're just not of the same genre or emphasis.

It is like claiming music of the 50s is "better than anything since" when even casual examination skewers that notion.

My main problem with anime today is simply finding enough time to watch more than 2 or 3 series in a season. I could wish for more variety and risk taking I suppose but that is a problem in almost any time period over the last 40 years.
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Old 2013-06-02, 14:15   Link #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Those long series were never the standard, though; one seems to arise every few years but otherwise it has always been series that were 11-13 episodes or 24-26 episodes in length.
While I'm tempted to say that shows longer than 2 cours (generally 3 or 4 cours) was the standard in the 80s and 90s when it came to TV shows I don't have the data to back it up (yet! believe it or not I'm working on it ) but I do feel they made a larger proportion of TV shows back then,but I'd say that's due to the fact that most TV shows aired daytime and daytime shows generally have longer runs (and that's still true today, a couple of examples are Space Bros and HunterXHunter) rather than late at night like they do now.
There were a lot less TV shows back then as well.And as with many shows of any kind most fall into obscurity which is why only "one seems to arise every few years".
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Old 2013-06-02, 15:14   Link #310
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
While I'm tempted to say that shows longer than 2 cours (generally 3 or 4 cours) was the standard in the 80s and 90s when it came to TV shows I don't have the data to back it up (yet! believe it or not I'm working on it ) but I do feel they made a larger proportion of TV shows back then
I'm all about data. If you can indicate that it was the standard or that the frequency of such shows was greater back then, it would be interesting. Otherwise, it seems to just be an artifact of looking to the past. You can name a number of 50+ episode series that aired years ago and even if they aired a year or three apart it will feel like they aired so closely together. When you compare that to what's currently airing and you either have one or no series of that length actively running then it feels as if the present is missing what's in the past.
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Old 2013-06-02, 17:24   Link #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
You can name a number of 50+ episode series that aired years ago and even if they aired a year or three apart it will feel like they aired so closely together.
Misread your post, I thought you were saying 26+ episode series were always a rare thing not 50+, sorry about that

Can't really comment on 50+ episodes with any confidence so I'll just refrain from doing so right now.
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Old 2013-06-03, 08:18   Link #312
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I've used AniDB to generate show counts by year. You can set the search parameters to a specific period of time. (I usually exclude hentai and "synonyms" from these counts.)



I've not broken them out by number of episodes though. You can do that simply by sorting on the episodes column and counting by hand. For instance, there are 66 TV series of 13 episodes or less that began and ended in 2010. Resorting the episodes column to a descending list shows fifteen series of thirty-nine or more episodes in 2010, and only 49 series that extended longer than 13 episodes. Those figures represent 13% and 43% of the 115 total series respectively.

In 1980, I cannot find any shows with fewer than 22 episodes, though I'll admit I did this rather hastily.
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Old 2013-06-03, 08:49   Link #313
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I'd call that a reflection of the economic woes of Japan - that drives the unwillingness to take risks on long projects and the reduction in taking on "untried" concepts in storytelling.

I've lost count of the number of series that really *needed* two cour for a proper story telling. At the moment, only light novel series (handful a year?) are getting some decent time budgets in animated coverage.
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Old 2013-06-03, 09:06   Link #314
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I must say, I don't have statistical data, but if my perspective is of any value, I can't really remember a famous anime from the 80s that had just 26 episodes or fewer.

Name an old classic and it will most likely have more than that.

Perhaps it is a trend that causes people to value more stories that are focused and less dispersive than they did in the past.
I, for one, prefer this recent trend and that's partially why I like the newer anime more than those I used to watch in my childhood.
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Old 2013-06-03, 11:15   Link #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Name an old classic and it will most likely have more than that.
If it's a TV show,at the time from what I understand late night anime didn't exist and the otaku market consisted of OVAs and those could be pretty short, a couple of examples would be gunbuster and bubblegum crisis (though the 8 episode length is a bit misleading since some episodes could be 50 minutes long).

In a way to me those seem like the ancestors of the current 1 cour late night TV animes more so than the TV shows of the time.
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Old 2013-06-03, 17:36   Link #316
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I was giving for granted that we were talking about TV series.
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Old 2013-06-03, 22:52   Link #317
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I'm 32 and have been watching anime since Vampire Hunter D and Robot Carnival aired on scifi channel early on a Saturday morning. I guess that would have been middle school for me.

Truth be told I could never get into a ton of anime but when something did click for me I REALLY liked it. Devilman, Bastard, Elfen Lied, Berserk, original Ninja Scroll, etc.

But it's been YEARS since anything has held my attention. I've enjoyed the new Berserk movies simply because at least it is a taste of the old awesomeness I remember. I don't even bother hating on the film like other passionate fans because I'm so grateful to have it and finally get to see the eclipse animated in a brutal way plus the aftermath.

Didn't know it was possible to ever enjoy anime again and wondered if I was done completely but Attack on Titan has clicked with me and I'm loving it. So the hits are FAR FAR fewer these days for some of us but at least a gem comes along once in awhile and I can still call myself an anime fan.
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Old 2013-06-03, 23:01   Link #318
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This is when I usually say that calling oneself an "anime fan" is a bit like calling oneself a "television fan". Anime is an entertainment medium with almost any sort of content possible.

Someone who watches only a specific subset of anime is a fan of that specific subset. These days I usually qualify my interests right off the start because otherwise the conversation goes like this.

Me: I watch anime. I like it.
Other: Wow! Great! Did you see the last One Piece?
Me: No, I just finished rewatching Toradora! and Moribito though. I might watch Ore Imouto later.
Other: What are those? How can you be an anime fan and not watch One Piece?
Me: Because I'm not often a fan of that particular subset of shounen. There are some exceptions like Martian Successor, TTGL, GiTS, and such.

After that it goes downhill, especially when the other doesn't understand that most of what I list is shounen/seinen as well - but other kinds.
Substitute almost any series you like for either speaker.
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Old 2013-06-03, 23:06   Link #319
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
This is when I usually say that calling oneself an "anime fan" is a bit like calling oneself a "television fan". Anime is an entertainment medium with almost any sort of content possible.

Someone who watches only a specific subset of anime is a fan of that specific subset. These days I usually qualify my interests right off the start because otherwise the conversation goes like this.

Me: I watch anime. I like it.
Other: Wow! Great! Did you see the last One Piece?
Me: No, I just finished rewatching Toradora! and Moribito though. I might watch Ore Imouto later.
Other: What are those? How can you be an anime fan and not watch One Piece?

Substitute almost any series you like for either speaker.
Well I say anime fan simply because I have many friends that are automatic anime haters. They hate the way it is drawn, the dialogue style, etc. Regardless of story they simply cannot watch it.

So I say I am an anime fan because I can at least start a show and give it a chance. Like how I am a horror movie fan when so many others will say they are no fan at all. Even though lots of horror movies suck I can give any film a try cause I am a fan of the genre.
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Old 2013-06-04, 00:33   Link #320
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Clearly, only anime back then were deep, philosophical, and respectful of their audiences, avoiding pandering to sexual fetishes and other vices, while modern anime is just brain dead shit that appeals to the lowest common denominator.

I introduce you to one of the deepest and most meaningful older anime of my life. Just enjoy the character depth and hidden plot elements combined with breathtakingly beautiful art and fluid animation that makes one think about one's soul and life's greater meanings- leaving a better person:



I am sad they no longer make classics like these. Good bye. /jumps off cliff.
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