AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Gundam

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-06-06, 20:35   Link #7501
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
I do agree that Kira did what he had to do, and Shinn's rage and vengence was self centered and morally wrong. I mean Shinn didn't seem to care when he killed Auel who was in the same situation as Stella. Why is it ok to kill him but Stella (who remember is an ENEMY) must be protected even at the cost of his own allies?

Edit: Oh I totally agree. In fact Kira should have just let Berlin burn and been on his merry way. All going there did was cause him and his side problems and they gained nothing from it. Shinn and Minerva would have been destroyed, they get to Orb with Freedom and AA intact, and when Djbril comes calling they land Freedom on Yuna's lawn and take Djbril out at beam rifle point, then toss him to Zaft and tell them to get lost.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-06, 20:38   Link #7502
BladeEntity
Anything's Possible
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
I do agree that Kira did what he had to do, and Shinn's rage and vengence was self centered and morally wrong. I mean Shinn didn't seem to care when he killed Auel who was in the same situation as Stella. Why is it ok to kill him but Stella (who remember is an ENEMY) must be protected even at the cost of his own allies?
Poor handling of Shinn's character.
__________________
Nothing is Impossible
BladeEntity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-06, 21:36   Link #7503
Soaring Griffin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
Poor handling of Shinn's character.
I disagree. It's OK for him to kill Auel because he's not Stella. Shinn saw Stella as a substitute for his dead sister because she's really just a frightened child in a teenaged girls body. The other extendeds don't matter to him because he developed that big brother complex with her and not them.
Soaring Griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-06, 21:40   Link #7504
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Well yes, but that's not a good thing. That just shows how Shinn is extremely biased in his viewpoints and cannot empatheize with people outside of people who either remind him of his own issues or people that praise and tell him he's right.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-06, 21:48   Link #7505
Soaring Griffin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
I know it's not a good thing, that's kinda the point. Shinn's a psychologically damaged kid who's not able to think rationally all the time (or even most of the time). This is how Rey and Durandal are able to control him in the last third of the series, because they know this and know how to take advantage of it.
Soaring Griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-06, 21:58   Link #7506
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Quote:
Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
Poor handling of Shinn's character.
That and Shinn knew Stellar personally and knew that she wasn't piloting of her own free will anyway. Shinn however didn't know Auel so obviously he isn't going to care much about'em.

It's like when you go out to eat, you don't care what anyone else is eating you only care about what you and your friends are eating.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-06, 22:05   Link #7507
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgedu View Post
Heine clearly could have just left the Freedom alone, if you rewatch that episode of his death, he's the one who slowly *thrusted* into Stellar's path of blade lol because he wanted to kill Kira for being *cocky* in his mind.............

There was not a single scene with Shinn even having the smallest hatred or thought toward Neo for Stellar's death...lol.

I am just saying it was cowardly

plenty hated Shinn and many rightly agree that Shinn had all the spotlight* (He was the main character of GSD , was that not enough spotlight )

Security was better in SEED(ZAFT used actual mobile suits and more than 3 little people to infiltrate the nation, don't forget the fact that heliopolis was a neutral nation so they didn't expect an attack there.

In GSD, they were in an actual military faction and 3 little people were able to steal 3 of the best GUNDAMS.

The security was definitely alottttt better in the military faction
The Freedom was an enemy combatant that was attacking the Minerva which had done nothing to warrant being attacked as they had been defending themselves only for the most part. It was Heine's duty to fight the Freedom because it was an enemy and was obviously attacking them too. Had Kira not shown up the Minerva would have proceeded to win the fight, thus Kira showing up ended with Neo and co. retreating to fight another day instead of being wiped out by the Minerva than and there which in turn would have prevented Berlin entirely.

Just like how Kira defending Orb, which was under corrupt leadership, allowed Djibri to escape and Logos to kill many more thousands. Had Kira not been there Djribri and Logos would have died at Orb as the Alliance wouldn't have been distracted by someone trying to play God.

Shinn thought Neo was still a "Good guy" as Shinn is a kid and Neo did tell him that Stellar was in the Destroy to stop Shinn from accidentally killing Stellar. That and as far as Shinn knows Neo died there anyway as he never shows up again.

Funny, the hangar that had the Strike in it had very little guards which Athrun took out in seconds. Had Kira not been there Athrun would have stolen the Strike along with the Aegis.

Furthermore the Gundams in Destiny were in an actual military base with tons of soldiers and Mobile Suits nearby. The Druggies only got in because there were traitors that aided in sneaking them into the base and than into the hangar thus bypassing the much larger security completely.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 00:28   Link #7508
Skye629
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgedu View Post
Rewatch the episodes again omgggg, Shinn despised the people who made Stella as an Extended(AA), he didn't even know who Neo was exactly until they met at the exchange point. My point was that Shinn didn't even blame Neo a single bit for Stellar's death when he obviously let her back into battle which breaks the promise.(There was a scene when Shinn was trying to stop the Destroy when he didn't know Stellar was inside it and Neo came up to him and said "Stop, Stellar is inside," and Shinn just becomes surprised looking at the cockpit and doesn't even get a LITTLE TINY mad at Neo or bother to ask something along the lines, "WHY THE FCK DIDNT U KEEP UR PROMISE," like he usually does and just has his eyes in shock and fear.
Of course he had to reason to hate Neo during the battle, Im talking about BEFORE, Neo was obviously responsible for her (Also like I previously noted, he obviously suppressed/forgot any feelings towards Neo due to the promise they made). Other thoughts during the Berlin battle obviously took priorities (what to do now Stella was on the battlefield, then Kira killing her) Also Neo got shot down on top of all this, so he became inconsequential to Shinn by this fact, and the fact that Kira killing Stella was obviously on the top of his mind all the way till the end of Angel Down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Well yes, but that's not a good thing. That just shows how Shinn is extremely biased in his viewpoints and cannot empatheize with people outside of people who either remind him of his own issues or people that praise and tell him he's right.
Everyone in this world is biased based on the information we know, and consider relevant, Im not about to go emphasize with some faceless person, especially if they were trying to kill me. Shinn KNEW Stella, as such it was easier for him to emphasize with her, as they actually came into contact, plus what Shinn found out at the extended facility they came across. Sting and Auel were faceless nobodies to him

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post

Just like how Kira defending Orb, which was under corrupt leadership, allowed Djibri to escape and Logos to kill many more thousands. Had Kira not been there Djribri and Logos would have died at Orb as the Alliance wouldn't have been distracted by someone trying to play God.

Which is exactly the reason he came in to save/relieve Cagalli, so she could go get shit straightened out in Orb by taking command and finding Djibril, by no means was he supporting the previous Orb leadership (Cagalli officially had the authority at this point) or Djibril. Also he obviously had his obligations towards Orb as his home country, and as the brother of its leader

Im sorta getting sick of these "God" references btw (even if that what his name means), if you want someone trying to play god, go watch FMA (Homunculus) or Bleach (Aizen), THATS what someone who is trying to be god is like, which is nothing like what Kira been doing at all

Heck, all Kira did in this battle was fight the enemy attacking his homeland and friends



Furthermore the Gundams in Destiny were in an actual military base with tons of soldiers and Mobile Suits nearby. The Druggies only got in because there were traitors that aided in sneaking them into the base and than into the hangar thus bypassing the much larger security completely.
Not necessarily traitors, they could have been inside ppl planted there at some random point in time :P
Also the proper term for these guys are Extended, while in SEED the druggies were extended, this time there are no drugs (as the instability due to the drugs was obviously recognized as a liability)
Skye629 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 00:57   Link #7509
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Funny, Cagalli is only able to get things in order after ZAFT leaves. Thus the point of Cagalli even showing up was pointless as ZAFT and the Feds would have left anyway after killing Djibril as they never intended to conquer ORB anyway - their only reason for going there was to destroy Djibril thus Logos. In fact they didn't even care for ORB anymore at that point until it was leaked that ORB was holding Djibril and that ORB refused to hand over Djibril.

So yes in fact he ended up aiding the current corrupt Orb Government by defending them against ZAFT/Feds who only wanted Djibril. They only invaded because ORB refused to hand him over and guess what? The moment Cagalli takes over she doesn't, even though she knows why ORB was invaded, order Djibril detained and for communications to be opened with ZAFT/Feds to let them know that new management was in place. No, instead she decides to go to war against the Factions that were in the right and thus ended up saving the monster Djibril by giving him an opening, during the fighting, to escape to murder more.

Djibril's escape and all that died after ORB is completely on the fault of Kira, Lacus, Cagalli, Athrun, and co. for allowing that monster to go free and their lack of desire to try and end the invasion without fighting. Cagalli's father would be ashamed of them all as not even he would protect a monster like Djibril like they did.

I don't care if you're getting sick of it. Deal with it, Kira had a God Complex and felt that he was right in what he did no matter what even when there are clear cases, attacking the Minerva and protecting Djibril, where he was in the wrong.

Not at all, Kira defended the known leader of Logos and didn't once try and end the fighting without violence nor did he try and explain the situation at all to ZAFT or the Feds. Instead he went in guns ablazing as he always did in Destiny and figured things would work out because he possibly can't be wrong. Ironically not only was Kira wrong here but he was dead wrong and did nothing to try and fix the situation and in fact his interference lead to more death and destruction.

Never once were they shown to have insiders. Thus your comment has no merit, Kira and co. were in the wrong by a large margin by participating in the Battle of Orb which greatly extended the war and caused the death of thousands more and millions/billions in damages.

I know what they are so don't lecture me, I'm still going to call them Druggies.

Also note that after the battle of ORB Kira opposes the Alliance completely and not once does he go after Logos or Djibril. No, ZAFT is the one that eventually hunts him down and put an end to Logos. Where was Kira during that? Oh right, going off on some crazy unimportant adventure elsewhere as he prepares to murder Durandal.

Last edited by Destined_Fate; 2013-06-07 at 01:15.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 01:09   Link #7510
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Except Zaft was looking to conquer Orb then as well. The guy in the sub who was the overall fleet commander, says as much, and even after Djbril escapes he still insists they keep attacking, and only when AA blows his sub up, and Talia takes command do they pull out. And they later say that Durandal had been hoping Orb would have fallen then. Shinn himself states he wants to destroy the country.

Durandal (who remember LIES) tells Talia she did the right thing because he still has his image to protect.

So no. Letting Zaft press their attack would be foolish for Kira and Cagalli to have done, as it would have left Orb under Zaft control, ending any hope they had of being indenpendent from him.

In fact Cagalli does exactly what you suggest. She requests they try to contact Zaft to request a cease fire (they aren't interested apparantly, because again the Zaft CO wants Orb conquered) and she sends guys looking for Djbril. The only thing she doesn't do is surrender to Zaft, because again, that means Orb as a soverign nation is over.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 01:26   Link #7511
monster
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by The American Average View Post
plus they had Cagalli from Orb making a special appearance
That's all the more reason to beef up the security.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Funny, the hangar that had the Strike in it had very little guards which Athrun took out in seconds. Had Kira not been there Athrun would have stolen the Strike along with the Aegis.
Athrun had helped in the fighting, and the EA still managed to shoot one ZAFT Red, while the three Extendeds were able to attack head on without any difficulty.
Quote:
Furthermore the Gundams in Destiny were in an actual military base with tons of soldiers and Mobile Suits nearby. The Druggies only got in because there were traitors that aided in sneaking them into the base and than into the hangar thus bypassing the much larger security completely.
Again, showing how bad the security was in Armory One.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Deal with it, Kira had a God Complex and felt that he was right in what he did no matter what even when there are clear cases, attacking the Minerva and protecting Djibril, where he was in the wrong.
Kira was protecting Orb, not Djibril. And no, he doesn't have a God complex.
monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 01:47   Link #7512
The American Average
2LMES
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!
YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Behold Dearka's shirt in hd remaster
__________________
The American Average is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 02:36   Link #7513
NoemiChan
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philippines
Age: 26
Send a message via Yahoo to NoemiChan Send a message via Skype™ to NoemiChan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soaring Griffin View Post
I disagree. It's OK for him to kill Auel because he's not Stella. Shinn saw Stella as a substitute for his dead sister because she's really just a frightened child in a teenaged girls body. The other extendeds don't matter to him because he developed that big brother complex with her and not them.
I agree that Shinn is a Siscon....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Well yes, but that's not a good thing. That just shows how Shinn is extremely biased in his viewpoints and cannot empatheize with people outside of people who either remind him of his own issues or people that praise and tell him he's right.
...and moron.
NoemiChan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 03:41   Link #7514
Skye629
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Funny, Cagalli is only able to get things in order after ZAFT leaves. Thus the point of Cagalli even showing up was pointless as ZAFT and the Feds would have left anyway after killing Djibril as they never intended to conquer ORB anyway - their only reason for going there was to destroy Djibril thus Logos. In fact they didn't even care for ORB anymore at that point until it was leaked that ORB was holding Djibril and that ORB refused to hand over Djibril.

And DO PLEASE tell me HOW they would have accomplished anything without trying? By your thinking, since nothing was accomplished they mind as well not even try to do anything as all. Nothing gets done without you getting off your butt and trying, even if you fail. And ZAFT WAS planning to take Orb, Djibril was only the tip of the iceberg and their primary justification, Orb was a giant thorn in their side

So yes in fact he ended up aiding the current corrupt Orb Government by defending them against ZAFT/Feds who only wanted Djibril. They only invaded because ORB refused to hand him over and guess what? The moment Cagalli takes over she doesn't, even though she knows why ORB was invaded, order Djibril detained and for communications to be opened with ZAFT/Feds to let them know that new management was in place. No, instead she decides to go to war against the Factions that were in the right and thus ended up saving the monster Djibril by giving him an opening, during the fighting, to escape to murder more.

He did NOT aid the Seirans because that government WAS NOT even in power anymore by the time of his arrival. Cagalli was, not the Seirans. And PLEASE do tell how Cagalli can just hand over someone she does not even have? The Seirans had him hidden away, and they (as well as any Seiran loyalists) would have not done anything to help her get him, and hid him away farther out of her reach. OF COURSE she decided to continue to fight, ZAFT was friggin invading them. YES this caused enough commotion for Djibril to escape (In I might add, a hidden/secret Seiran shuttle/launch bay), but its not like they just let him walk out, it took Seiran loyalists causing miscommunication to allow him to escape while everyone else was searching for him (dont say that Kira and Co. added to the confusion/chaos of the fighting, because they did not, on the grand scale of the battle. they were tied the whole time the Minerva and its crew was fighting them. Hell they would have still lost even if Djibril escaped. Only Talia's decision to fall back spared ORB)

Djibril's escape and all that died after ORB is completely on the fault of Kira, Lacus, Cagalli, Athrun, and co. for allowing that monster to go free and their lack of desire to try and end the invasion without fighting. Cagalli's father would be ashamed of them all as not even he would protect a monster like Djibril like they did.

They tried to call for a ceasefire so they could find and hand over Djibril. Naturally ZAFT command did not believe this and refused to open talks (considering they probably did not know about the change of power, and their invasion plans).

I don't care if you're getting sick of it. Deal with it, Kira had a God Complex and felt that he was right in what he did no matter what even when there are clear cases, attacking the Minerva and protecting Djibril, where he was in the wrong.

So thinking you are right is a god complex? I guess you, and everyone in this world have one then. The show does not in any way, remotely hint at a god complex. If you think Kira's confidence in what he believes in is a god complex, then you should take a moment to think things over. Heres a comparison of someone with an actual god complex: Kira (from Death Note lol). He set out to cleanse the whole world from anyone he considered trash. He killed anyone who got in his way, as well as innocents just to further his plans. You know what? Put it together yourself, I'm sure you are familiar with Death Note. Also please try to remember that "right" and "wrong" is completely subjective, while Kira's motives for attacking the Minerva are QUESTIONABLE, it is by no means "wrong". And once again, Kira WAS NOT, protecting Djibril, hell everyone by that point outside of the Logos supporters was against him based on the information Durandal and ZAFT brought to light. And you know Kira, he stands by Lacus' views, and in no way would she ever support Djibril and Logos

Not at all, Kira defended the known leader of Logos and didn't once try and end the fighting without violence nor did he try and explain the situation at all to ZAFT or the Feds. Instead he went in guns ablazing as he always did in Destiny and figured things would work out because he possibly can't be wrong. Ironically not only was Kira wrong here but he was dead wrong and did nothing to try and fix the situation and in fact his interference lead to more death and destruction.

Never once were they shown to have insiders. Thus your comment has no merit, Kira and co. were in the wrong by a large margin by participating in the Battle of Orb which greatly extended the war and caused the death of thousands more and millions/billions in damages.

May not have merit, but is a possibility as I noted with "may". I ask you to refer to my above points about Kira and Co.

I know what they are so don't lecture me, I'm still going to call them Druggies.

Im not lecturing, Im pointing something out. I would love to see you give that response to a professor/anyone trying to show you something

Also note that after the battle of ORB Kira opposes the Alliance completely and not once does he go after Logos or Djibril. No, ZAFT is the one that eventually hunts him down and put an end to Logos. Where was Kira during that? Oh right, going off on some crazy unimportant adventure elsewhere as he prepares to murder Durandal.

Of course they cant go after Logos/Djibril. Orb was just wrecked, they had zero capability to all of a sudden, move to space, then assault the strongest AF/Logos base left (dont forget, all of their space forces were based on the moon). And it was obviously ZAFTs job to get Djibril, how would you think Durandal would take it if his enemies snatched Djibril away from him? The world would then have given support to ORB (given the information Durandal gave to the alliance and the public about Djibril/logos), and it would have been a slap in the face. And there was no concrete plan to kill Durandal, removing him from power was all that was necessary. As for the final confrontation, it just came down to that due to the space fortress and it firing giant lazors (cant recall its name atm)
And as a question to you, Do you support the Destiny Plan? Because everything you say seem to point in that direction. If nobody interfered in Orb it would have fallen to Zaft, Djibril have been dead, and no powers left to oppose Durandal and his plans (Dont say Lacus and Co., strong as they might be they cant stand before a unified world under Durandal). At this point the show would have been over, or concluded in an even more ridiculous manner with Kira and Co. beating all the odds, and stopping the world

Last edited by Skye629; 2013-06-07 at 04:09.
Skye629 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 04:54   Link #7515
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Simple, fire white flares in the sky, raise a white flag, and attempt to open communications. No way Talia wouldn't have ordered hostilities stopped to try and figure out what changed with ORB all of a sudden. Course something that simple is too hard for Kira and co. to think of as they were out for blood because they are "right" even when they're wrong.

Yes he did. Fact of the matter is that he defended a corrupt ORB thus prolonging the fighting and taking down many innocent soldiers that were doing the right thing by going after Logos and its supports while Kira did wrong by defending those monsters. Kira also just sat on his rear as Djibril escaped and not once did Kira even consider going after Djibril afterward as he would rather kill Durandal than go after the main threat to all of humanity at that time which was Djibril, who lived due to Kira, and Logos.

Tried my rear. What was the first thing Cagalli did when she showed up? Oh right, she fired at ZAFT and the Feds as she went into ORB. Not once did she try and contract them ahead of the time to let them know what she was trying to do. No, instead she attacked them, saved Yuna, and than expected them to believe she was somehow not with the corrupt ORB.

Not may, has no merit. Period. There was no Insiders shown thus you cannot say they exist when clearly they didn't.

Whose fault was that again? Right, Kira and co's for not explaining the situation and going by a shot first policy than wondering why no one likes them. Hell Athrun was angry at Kira for the longest time because of that policy and wouldn't have even rejoined Kira had Durandal decided not to remove Athrun.

Destiny Plan was introduced at that point thus irrelevant. Kira didn't know about it thus he has no justification for his dumb moves in Destiny that only turned out right because the Director wanted a "Kira is always right even when he's wrong" policy.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 05:00   Link #7516
Skye629
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Simple, fire white flares in the sky, raise a white flag, and attempt to open communications. No way Talia wouldn't have ordered hostilities stopped to try and figure out what changed with ORB all of a sudden. Course something that simple is too hard for Kira and co. to think of as they were out for blood because they are "right" even when they're wrong.

Yes he did. Fact of the matter is that he defended a corrupt ORB thus prolonging the fighting and taking down many innocent soldiers that were doing the right thing by going after Logos and its supports while Kira did wrong by defending those monsters. Kira also just sat on his rear as Djibril escaped and not once did Kira even consider going after Djibril afterward as he would rather kill Durandal than go after the main threat to all of humanity at that time which was Djibril, who lived due to Kira, and Logos.

Tried my rear. What was the first thing Cagalli did when she showed up? Oh right, she fired at ZAFT and the Feds as she went into ORB. Not once did she try and contract them ahead of the time to let them know what she was trying to do. No, instead she attacked them, saved Yuna, and than expected them to believe she was somehow not with the corrupt ORB.

Not may, has no merit. Period. There was no Insiders shown thus you cannot say they exist when clearly they didn't.

Whose fault was that again? Right, Kira and co's for not explaining the situation and going by a shot first policy than wondering why no one likes them. Hell Athrun was angry at Kira for the longest time because of that policy and wouldn't have even rejoined Kira had Durandal decided not to remove Athrun.

Destiny Plan was introduced at that point thus irrelevant. Kira didn't know about it thus he has no justification for his dumb moves in Destiny that only turned out right because the Director wanted a "Kira is always right even when he's wrong" policy.
Before I do any replies, could you please quote my comments? It makes it so much easier for me to respond appropriately

As a quick look over it seems you ignored some of my points, whatever, lets continue this dance (after you quote which of my comments you were responding to)
Skye629 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 05:07   Link #7517
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
I did them in order, quoting is unnecessary.

I don't ignore, I addressed your main points as your minor points were redundant and have no standing when the main points don't as said minor points depend upon the main points not being moot.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 05:39   Link #7518
Skye629
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
I did them in order, quoting is unnecessary.

I don't ignore, I addressed your main points as your minor points were redundant and have no standing when the main points don't as said minor points depend upon the main points not being moot.
Ok then, lets do this, oh and I WILL point out things you ignored

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Simple, fire white flares in the sky, raise a white flag, and attempt to open communications. No way Talia wouldn't have ordered hostilities stopped to try and figure out what changed with ORB all of a sudden. Course something that simple is too hard for Kira and co. to think of as they were out for blood because they are "right" even when they're wrong.

1. White is SURRENDER, not an option. 2. Talia WAS NOT in command until the late stages in the battle when the AA sank the commanding sub, and even then she jacked the chain of command with her FAITH rank. Out for blood? No, if they were DESTINY would have been way over before this point. All they did was interfere with the Minerva and is units, which were about to take out Cagalli, who had by this point become the leader of ORB again, and obviously they had to help her

Yes he did. Fact of the matter is that he defended a corrupt ORB thus prolonging the fighting and taking down many innocent soldiers that were doing the right thing by going after Logos and its supports while Kira did wrong by defending those monsters. Kira also just sat on his rear as Djibril escaped and not once did Kira even consider going after Djibril afterward as he would rather kill Durandal than go after the main threat to all of humanity at that time which was Djibril, who lived due to Kira, and Logos.

You ignored the fact that the Seirans are no longer in power, as such it was not corrupt as that was the Seirans Administration. Of course you are right though if you are viewing it from ZAFTs perspective during the battle, but as you are unclear on what view you are taking (an in series view or your own views) I will assume your own views, as some of your comments suggest.

Random point: "innocent soldiers"? I would hardly call anyone engaging in warfare to be "innocent"

Kira was hardly defending them, hell he was having trouble defending himself against Rey and Shinn (oh yeah, Kira was also busy fighting when Djibril launched, like he could do anything at all), nothing changed since ZAFT was still winning and pushing inland. I would ALSO like to point out that by no way Kira and AA arriving would have changed anything. If Cagalli NEVER showed up, Djibril would have been gone even faster, as nobody would have hindered the Seirans and Djibril from hightailing it out of there on the shuttle. And by no way would have any ZAFT forces been able to 1. shoot down an unknown/unexpected shuttle launch from an unknown location, and 2. As seen in the show MS's are simply incapable of keeping up with a shuttle fast enough to punch out of the earths gravity into space.


Tried my rear. What was the first thing Cagalli did when she showed up? Oh right, she fired at ZAFT and the Feds as she went into ORB. Not once did she try and contract them ahead of the time to let them know what she was trying to do. No, instead she attacked them, saved Yuna, and than expected them to believe she was somehow not with the corrupt ORB.

As if they would just let a MS squadron fly by them to get to the command center. Of course they had to punch their way through. ALSO HOW would Cagalli know the ZAFT frequencies to communicate? ON TOP OF THIS she was not even in command/ORBs authority at this point, do you really think any commander would buy anything she says without it? NO. If she could contact them ahead of time, why would she? The battle was in full swing and Orb was reeling, if ZAFT so chose, which they did, they continued to fight and Orb would have eventually fell, better to use those Murasames as defense. Saved Yuna? Not really, he was doomed to death/exile/life in prison the instant he gave Cagalli her authority back.

Not may, has no merit. Period. There was no Insiders shown thus you cannot say they exist when clearly they didn't.

You apparently can't comprehend the concept of "may", which I will state in clearer terms for you. May = Maybe, if, what if, etc.etc. etc. As such there is no proof that there were, but at the same time there is no proof against such a P-O-S-S-I-B-I-L-I-T-Y. Your failing in this was they I NEVER claimed that there WAS insiders, but I said there "MAY" have been

Whose fault was that again? Right, Kira and co's for not explaining the situation and going by a shot first policy than wondering why no one likes them. Hell Athrun was angry at Kira for the longest time because of that policy and wouldn't have even rejoined Kira had Durandal decided not to remove Athrun.

Explain a situation to deaf ears (the ZAFT officer in command whatever his name was if it was ever said)???? Yeaaahhhhhh........Also they never "Wondered y nobody liked them", they already knew what they were doing

Destiny Plan was introduced at that point thus irrelevant. Kira didn't know about it thus he has no justification for his dumb moves in Destiny that only turned out right because the Director wanted a "Kira is always right even when he's wrong" policy.

You say it was introduced, yet he does not know about it? Wut? EVERYONE in the WORLD watched that broadcasted announcement. I will point out AGAIN, that your perceived "dumb" and "wrong" are purely subjective and does not constitute concrete facts about the world
Ugh its late, Ill do more tomorrow when Im rested. Ill quote my responses later and highlight all the things you ignored from my posts
Skye629 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 06:45   Link #7519
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Still doesn't change that Talia has a lot of pull and if they made it known they were surrendering and wanted to talk than the Feds/ZAFT would have listened. That didn't happen as Cagalli's Faction attacked the Feds/ZAFT as soon as they appeared.

False, they were still in power when the Invasion of ORB happened. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. The military still obeyed Yuna until Yuna admitted that Cagalli was in fact Cagalli.

Please don't try and suggest that those in the military are all moraless monsters that kill for fun. My father was in the Navy and I was in the Army for awhile, many in the military don't want to kill but will do so if it's needed for the greater good. Had ORB not shielded Djibri and opposed them than no one would have even desired to fight ORB. ORB brought the invasion upon itself.

Had Cagalli's forces not shown up ORB would have been defeated quickly and Djibri would never have been able to escape. He was only able to escape as ZAFT/Feds had to waste resources against ORB/Cagalli's Renegade Forces/Kira/Athrun/Archangel. If it was just ORB the battle would have ended far differently.

That's Cagalli's own fault for not contacting ZAFT/Feds before swooping in and having them shoot at them. Also, Global Channels exist. Talia even tries to use a Global Channel early in the anime to contact Neo as the colony was falling to Earth. Thus Cagalli has no excuse as even in a military operation Global Channels are still open and monitored.

No seem to confuse the meaning of may. They had no insiders, not once was a single Insider shown. Cagalli flew in and ORB opposed her until Yuna said she was the real Cagalli. So no, there is no may ad you're wrong to try and say there may have been when we know for a fact based off the anime that there were NO insiders in ORB working with Cagalli during the Battle of Orb. Hell no one in power in ORB even expected to see Cagalli at the battle.

Deaf ears? Please. You're just trying to demonize ZAFT/Feds to justify Cagalli and Kira making extremely dumb decisions.

Wasn't introduced* than. Typo. Great job with you running with a typo and trying to insult me because you have nothing. Furthermore you aren't one to talk as you've been demonizing the non-Kira side the entire time and have tried to make it seem that Kira was right when he was clearly wrong. No matter how you look at it Kira screwed up a lot in Destiny with his main screw up being letting Djibril go free because he wanted to play God and that he never even bothered to go after Djibril afterward even as Djibril started racking up an even larger kill count.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-06-07, 12:17   Link #7520
Aquaman OS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Episode 42 17 minutes. She DID tell them to contact Zaft and request a ceasefire. Zaft for whatever reason, never responded. Probably because the commander in charge (who was NOT Talia at that point) as mentioned wanted Orb taken out.

Plus Kira DOES know about the Destiny Plan at that point. Dacosta found data on it in that colony remember? And he and Lacus are explaining it to the crew of AA before Durandal publically unveils it. So now he has even further proof that Durandal has an agenda and they'll need Orb to oppose him.
Aquaman OS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mecha, seed it and weep

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.