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Old 2013-06-07, 22:49   Link #941
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
That could be the case. But if Athen's really trying, they can just assassinate the royal family secretly without telling them about it in advance. Because that actually lower the chance of eliminating the royal family.
That’s assuming they have assassins who are able to breach all the security surrounding Krisna (let alone the security surrounding the Royal family). I mean, if they can do that, they would’ve tried already since Athens obviously prefer Krisna’s leader(s) to be dead than merely surrendered.
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Old 2013-06-08, 00:05   Link #942
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
That’s assuming they have assassins who are able to breach all the security surrounding Krisna (let alone the security surrounding the Royal family). I mean, if they can do that, they would’ve tried already since Athens obviously prefer Krisna’s leader(s) to be dead than merely surrendered.
I meant assassinating them after Kristna surrendered.
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Old 2013-06-08, 00:14   Link #943
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I meant assassinating them after Kristna surrendered.
I think it’s developed in the early chapters that, aside from General Borcuse, the Athens during Zess’ brother’s rule (forget his bloody name) don’t use “dirty” methods like that. Heck, that's why they made a great deal out of Borcuse since he's willing to do "any means necessary". Doesn't change the fact that they still want Krisna's Royals to die (willingly).
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Old 2013-06-08, 00:32   Link #944
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But Borcuse was employed in the war against Kristna after all, so it doesnt make sense unless they think assassination is dirtier than Borcuse's method...

Supposedly say Athens has killed every Kristna soldiers, but part of the royal family had escaped. What's Athens going to do then? Keep refusing to acknowledge the surrender even when there's noone left in the country to fight against ?
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Old 2013-06-08, 01:00   Link #945
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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
But Borcuse was employed in the war against Kristna after all, so it doesnt make sense unless they think assassination is dirtier than Borcuse's method...
Borcuse’s entry into the fray was a bit too late. By that time, with the help of Rygart and Delphine, Hodr and the overall army of Krisna already got the resolve to fight. I bet if Athens offered the deal again (with assassination attempt this time) after Borcuse’s release, it will be fishy. General Baldr of all people will spot the suspicious nature of the deal and advice the already-resolved Hodr against it and the deal will be off immediately.

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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
Supposedly say Athens has killed every Kristna soldiers, but part of the royal family had escaped. What's Athens going to do then? Keep refusing to acknowledge the surrender even when there's noone left in the country to fight against ?
No, Athens is aiming to cease all resistance and get all the quartz. During the Pre-offer, Athens still used the “soft” way with little blood spilled. After the deal is off, they use the “hard” way by declaring war. Both methods, no matter how cruel they are, are still “fair games”. Assassination, on the other hand, is not a "fair game". That said, if they managed to obliterate all of Krisna’s army, Athens will pillage the quartz and claim Krisna’s quartz-mines first. Whether or not they still want the royal family dead by then is anybody’s guess. But by then, Krisna will be declared lost and will fall into Athens hands.
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2013-06-08 at 01:30. Reason: grammar check
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Old 2013-06-08, 01:33   Link #946
Fwarlord
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I think it’s developed in the early chapters that, aside from General Borcuse, the Athens during Zess’ brother’s rule (forget his bloody name) don’t use “dirty” methods like that. Heck, that's why they made a great deal out of Borcuse since he's willing to do "any means necessary". Doesn't change the fact that they still want Krisna's Royals to die (willingly).
So that mean except for Borcuse, all members of Athens' government are idiots? They were willing to to sacrifice their own soldier's life just because of meaningless fairness. All they should do was just accepting Krisna's surrender, then when they're in control, they could do all they want to Krisna's royalty, secretly killing them, letting them die due to some "sudden illnesses", executing them by some crimes like treason, rebel or whatever... There is absolutely no need for a war when dealing with a country fully of cowards like Knisna, where the royalty's willingly to surrender without fighting and the people rather live in slavery than die when fighting for freedom.
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Old 2013-06-08, 01:43   Link #947
maplehurry
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Borcuse’s entry into the fray is a bit too late. By that time, with the help of Rygart and Delphine, Hodr and the overall army of Krisna was already got the resolve to fight. I bet if Athens offered the deal again (with assassination attempt this time) after Borcuse’s release, it will be fishy. General Baldr of all people will spot the suspicious nature of the deal and advice the-already-resolved Hodr against it and the deal will be off immediately.
Maybe Hodr will reject it. But I don't see why Athens wont at least attempt it again when they decided to use Borcuse, just to shift off some of the moral burden if Athens actually cared under your assumption. Actually, I thought Athens did offer it again after Borcuse's loss...?


Quote:
So, if they managed to obliterate all of Krisna’s army, Athens will pillage the quartz and claim the Krisna’s quartz mines first. Whether or not they still want the royal family dead by then is anybody’s guess. But by then, Krisna will be already declared lost and will fall into Athens.
If Athens does not care to want the royal family dead by then, then Athens could've just tell Kristna to hand Athens all the mechs and weapons they had during the 1st surrender deal.
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Old 2013-06-08, 02:12   Link #948
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Originally Posted by Fwarlord View Post
So that mean except for Borcuse, all members of Athens' government are idiots? They were willing to to sacrifice their own soldier's life just because of meaningless fairness. All they should do was just accepting Krisna's surrender, then when they're in control, they could do all they want to Krisna's royalty, secretly killing them, letting them die due to some "sudden illnesses", executing them by some crimes like treason, rebel or whatever... There is absolutely no need for a war when dealing with a country fully of cowards like Knisna, where the royalty's willingly to surrender without fighting and the people rather live in slavery than die when fighting for freedom.
Your mileage may vary, but for the Athenians’, they seemed like following certain ideals not known to us (yet). Ideals that apparently forbid using aggressive trickery such as assassination to rule other nations. They’d rather notify their enemies that “You should just die or be ready to fight us!” instead of “stabbing from behind”. But all that changed after Loquis (yeah, I remember his name now) are forced to “unleash” Borcuse. Borcuse didn’t give a crap about those ideals and use any means necessary as long as it will benefit the country. Still, he probably thought that using another deal to trick Krisna won’t work again and sending assassins to kill the Royals inside Krisna’s security a bit too much. He prefer the war since he enjoyed the blood-bath anyway.

Also, I won’t say that Krisna is a country full of cowards. As we already witnessed, there are many brave soldiers and commanders in Krisna. While pheasants and civilians were being scared of war like any civilians from any country out there.


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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
Maybe Hodr will reject it. But I don't see why Athens wont at least attempt it again when they decided to use Borcuse, just to shift off some of the moral burden if Athens actually cared under your assumption. Actually, I thought Athens did offer it again after Borcuse's loss...?
Like I said, general Baldr will spot it, and he will convince Hodr and most likely other Krisnan’s rulers and the rest of the generals that the deal is fishy due to Borcuse’s notoriety. I don’t think the council will be stupid enough to ignore that warning. I'm talking about during Borcuse's presence, not after he died. As for why Athen's didn't try it, well, they already give the rest of the problem to Borcuse and decided to just wait. While Borcuse himself seemed to prefer the war.

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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
If Athens does not care to want the royal family dead by then, then Athens could've just tell Kristna to hand Athens all the mechs and weapons they had during the 1st surrender deal.
You’re confusing my response about the actual story and the one you came up with. The situation of what actually happened and your suggestion is different. In the actual story, Athens wanted the Krisnan’s Royals dead because, at that point, they still have all their military strength and loyalists. Like they say, “Cutting the head to stop the body from retaliating (much)”. Now, in your suggested situation, war already happened, Krisna’s army and government are obliterated, the Royals fled, and Athens won and get their main target: namely the quartz. At that point, the survival of the royalties won’t hold as much significant meaning anymore since they no longer have anything.
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Old 2013-06-08, 02:33   Link #949
maplehurry
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In the actual story, Athens wanted the Krisnan’s Royals dead because, at that point, they still have all their military strength and loyalists.
Therefore, i was suggesting that Athens could've offered an alternative condition that is for Kristna to hand over all the mechs and weapons they had during the 1st surrender proposal. Even if Kristna tried to hide something, this would still greatly diminish Kristna's military strength while boosting Athen's (instead of having a whole bunch of mechs being destroyed in the subsequent war).
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Old 2013-06-08, 02:48   Link #950
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Also, I won’t say that Krisna is a country full of cowards. As we already witnessed, there are many brave soldiers and commanders in Krisna. While pheasants and civilians were being scared of war like any civilians from any country out there.
But those brave ones are only from the military. The generals and their army cannot start a war on their own, they need the approval from the government and the support from the people, in this case, are all those who are too scare to fight. If Athens hadn't been so stubborn and told nothing about the death of the royalty, Krisna would have surrendered already.
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Old 2013-06-08, 07:37   Link #951
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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
Therefore, i was suggesting that Athens could've offered an alternative condition that is for Kristna to hand over all the mechs and weapons they had during the 1st surrender proposal. Even if Kristna tried to hide something, this would still greatly diminish Kristna's military strength while boosting Athen's (instead of having a whole bunch of mechs being destroyed in the subsequent war).
This is from Hodr after revealing the “secret” condition to Rygart: “For secretary general Loquis, peace is the same as failure. If he wins, he get everything”. That kinda make it obvious as of why Athens wanted Krishna’s Royals to be dead. Like I already said, Athens want more, and by ‘more’ that means they want total winning by executing the Royals. Thus ensuring that the rest of Krishnans won’t have any ruler they can fight for. Krishna handing over their golems and weapons is not enough, Athens wanted to crush it completely through “legit” means. But when it didn't work at all, he finally resorted to summoning Borcuse to do what he will.

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Originally Posted by Fwarlord View Post
But those brave ones are only from the military. The generals and their army cannot start a war on their own, they need the approval from the government and the support from the people, in this case, are all those who are too scare to fight. If Athens hadn't been so stubborn and told nothing about the death of the royalty, Krisna would have surrendered already.
Okay, so apparently we have different conception of what a “country full of cowards” is . So yeah, let’s just agree to disagree.
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Old 2013-06-08, 14:56   Link #952
maplehurry
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
That kinda make it obvious as of why Athens wanted Krishna’s Royals to be dead. Like I already said, Athens want more, and by ‘more’ that means they want total winning by executing the Royals.
And this brings us back to my original point. When Athens decided to reveal this, it lowers the chance of eliminating the Kristna royals since some of the Kristna royals can simply escape beforehand (probably to another country) or just use body double since they now have the knowledge that Athens want them dead.

In other words, Athens cannot achieve the "total winning" they want even if they start the war and win it.

Last edited by maplehurry; 2013-06-08 at 15:14.
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Old 2013-06-08, 15:32   Link #953
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And this brings us back to my original point. When Athens decided to reveal this, it lowers the chance of eliminating the Kristna royals since some of the Kristna royals can simply escape beforehand (probably to another country) or just use body double since they now have the knowledge that Athens want them dead.

In other words, Athens cannot achieve the "total winning" they want even if they start the war and win it.
Surely when Athens made that offer, they thought that once the Krisnan Royals declined, the alternative (war) would be an easy-win since Golem-wise, Krishna only had less than 200 while Athens had more than 700. They never thought that Rygart + Delphine (as well as well-executed homeland strategies) will give them so much difficulty. The loss of so many soldiers and golems is the one that made Loquis release Borcuse after all. In other words, those Athenians miscalculated about the war, but the deal is still a nice try. Like I said, the Royals matters as long as they have their country and power (that's what pre-Delphine deal/offer is for), but once they lost everything (due to Athens winning the war and rule Krishna), their significance will be reduced probably to the point that Athens will outright ignore them even if they managed to escape, who knows?

And we know that Pre-Borcuse Athenians wouldn’t do things like trick-treaty or assassination toward Royals to rule other country. Like I previously said, it seems to be some kind of Athenian ideals we don’t know. On the other hand, I’m still open toward possible further explanation in the future about the deeper reason behind that “Royals must die!” conditions (if there’s any).
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Old 2013-06-08, 16:17   Link #954
maplehurry
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Like I said, the Royals matters as long as they have their country and power (that's what pre-Delphine deal/offer is for), but once they lost everything (due to Athens winning the war and rule Krishna), their significance will be reduced
Personally I am still not really convinced how this is so much different from the scenario in which Kristna handed over their mechs and weapons with Kristna royals being confined in Athens (which mirrors the case of them hiding in foreign land as mentioned) and Athens ruling Kristna...but I will just agree to disagree at this point and wait for future content as you mentioned.
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Old 2013-06-08, 16:22   Link #955
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There is one very major difference between these two scenarioss.

Athens DIDN'T WANT one of them...

There is nothing more to it than desire of one man. Deal with it.
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Old 2013-06-08, 17:24   Link #956
maplehurry
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There is one very major difference between these two scenarioss.

Athens DIDN'T WANT one of them...

There is nothing more to it than desire of one man. Deal with it.
Or didn't think of it...

But textbook type of villain is not uncommon (or more common than not), so what you said is certainly very possible.
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Old 2013-06-16, 11:37   Link #957
blitz1/2
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can't wait for break blade 65, we have Zess face to face with Rygart
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:02   Link #958
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can't wait for break blade 65, we have Zess face to face with Rygart
I seriously doubt they are gonna meet so soon.
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Old 2013-06-16, 20:50   Link #959
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I seriously doubt they are gonna meet so soon.
end of ch 64 has them facing each other eye to eye (well Zess was in the golem while Rygart was on foot)
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Old 2013-06-16, 22:43   Link #960
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end of ch 64 has them facing each other eye to eye (well Zess was in the golem while Rygart was on foot)
Oh, sorry, I was pretty sure 63 was the lastest

UPD: It seems http://comic-meteor.jp/breakblade/ has 63rd chapter as the latest too. hm....
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