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Old 2013-06-08, 18:09   Link #28761
Dhomochevsky
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They are collecting data.

The data crunching can happen now, later, never, or whenever you become a person of interest for anyone with influence power to start up the crunching.

Also their data collecting can be about one thing now, but that can and will surely change in the future. The data will still be there for that new purpose.
We can not know yet, what implication our records will have later on.

This has little to do with 'privacy', hurt feelings, or 'if it bothers you'.
This is about power.
Knowledge is power.
With the right information, you can rule over anyone, pressure anyone, shut down any opposition.

I think we are right to be concerned about it.
On the other hand this is hardly news. You kept that thing up and running after all. Now the listening simply got privatized.
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Old 2013-06-08, 18:20   Link #28762
SaintessHeart
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The Swiss also had one of those. No wonder they know when taxmen from around the world is coming for their customers.

Damn banksters.
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Old 2013-06-08, 18:54   Link #28763
synaesthetic
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They're collecting metadata. Not actual data. If they want to access the actual data, they have to get a court order--this is nothing new, it's been going on for years. Where were ya'll back then, when the Patriot Act first went into play?

The reason nobody really cares much about this is because we can't do anything to stop it. We're jaded and dead to it all. I read about this and I didn't even get outraged, though this was partially because I knew the headlines to be exaggerating and inflammatory. I just don't care. I have more important things to worry about--like putting food on the table. Everything I post on Facebook is public, anyway, and completely meaningless and/or inane.

We're tired of living in fear. It's very stressful and severely impacts your quality of life. What are we supposed to do against this sort of thing? We can't do anything. Idiots keep voting these other idiots back into office. Nothing's going to change. The system's rigged; the hens are selling their chicks to the fox so he doesn't even have to raid the henhouse.

So yeah. I don't care. I really, really don't. I don't have the energy to care. I've been poor, homeless, ground down by the system in the last seven years. I just don't give any fucks anymore.
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Old 2013-06-08, 19:40   Link #28764
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Where were ya'll back then, when the Patriot Act first went into play?
10th grade. Not in a position to do anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
What are we supposed to do against this sort of thing?
Pretty much. Screwing over citizens' rights is the only thing both political parties agree on unanimously. You can't even vote against them, due to how corrupt it all is.
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Old 2013-06-08, 19:53   Link #28765
synaesthetic
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Yeah, I wasn't old enough, either.
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Old 2013-06-08, 20:01   Link #28766
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
citizens' rights
At this point I usually replace "rights" with "entitlements". To me it's sickening just how many people take things for granted without thinking.
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Old 2013-06-08, 20:20   Link #28767
GDB
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
At this point I usually replace "rights" with "entitlements". To me it's sickening just how many people take things for granted without thinking.
And to me it's sickening how you keep bringing your bias from other countries' policies and standards into a discussion about the rights US citizens have. This is not Korea, it's not Japan, it's not China, etc. This is the USA, and citizens have rights.
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Old 2013-06-08, 20:25   Link #28768
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
And to me it's sickening how you keep bringing your bias from other countries' policies and standards into a discussion about the rights US citizens have. This is not Korea, it's not Japan, it's not China, etc. This is the USA, and citizens have rights.
I live next door to the US, you know, and even quite a few Canadians believe Americans have an entitlement issue. Heck, I grew up in the States, so where does your accusation of "bias from other countries' policies" come into play here?
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Old 2013-06-08, 20:33   Link #28769
GDB
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Heck, I grew up in the States, so where does your accusation of "bias from other countries' policies" come into play here?
Possibly how you used to always parade around (or state it and then others would parade it around to hype you up) that you were Xth in line to the crown or whatever for Korea and/or Japan. Further how many of your posts when it comes to international incidents seem to be from the perspective of a South Korean, especially when it has to do with the general Korea/Japan/China region.
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Old 2013-06-08, 20:41   Link #28770
Terrestrial Dream
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Instead of personal attacks, it would be better if we actually focus on the topic itself.
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Old 2013-06-08, 20:41   Link #28771
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
At this point I usually replace "rights" with "entitlements". To me it's sickening just how many people take things for granted without thinking.
I didn't know privacy rights and the 4th Amendment are "entitlements" now, thanks for the memo, I best go tell the SCOTUS that they need to strike down the 4th!
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Old 2013-06-08, 20:51   Link #28772
Sumeragi
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I didn't know privacy rights and the 4th Amendment are "entitlements" now, thanks for the memo, I best go tell the SCOTUS that they need to strike down the 4th!
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Given that any organization is going to need a warrant to get the hands on whatever was collected, there is nothing substantially different from the authorities needing to get a warrant to go through your bank/transaction records. In short, everything is within the rights that are protected.
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Old 2013-06-08, 21:09   Link #28773
synaesthetic
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The word "entitlement" should not be used in regards to government, period. We've paid for those rights; most of us in tax dollars, some of us in blood.

The government is made up of people just like us--they aren't inherently better or worse than any other random American human.

You can call it "entitlement" when they start giving stuff away for free. Of course, this will never happen. Nothing in life is free.
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Old 2013-06-08, 21:47   Link #28774
ChainLegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
At this point I usually replace "rights" with "entitlements". To me it's sickening just how many people take things for granted without thinking.
The way I interpret what you're saying is that Americans have it better than the citizens of many other countries, and they should basically suck it up. It's true that Americans have it better than many others out there, but in my view, your thinking is backwards. Americans shouldn't stop making demands because other people have it worse. People everywhere should be striving for a higher standard of governance, not a worse one. It's not some kind of race or competition.
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Old 2013-06-08, 22:10   Link #28775
ganbaru
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Brother-in-law of Chinese Nobel winner jailed for 11 years
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...95800R20130609

Mississippi aims to curb teen pregnancy with umbilical blood law
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9560SL20130607
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Old 2013-06-08, 23:27   Link #28776
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
The way I interpret what you're saying is that Americans have it better than the citizens of many other countries, and they should basically suck it up. It's true that Americans have it better than many others out there, but in my view, your thinking is backwards. Americans shouldn't stop making demands because other people have it worse. People everywhere should be striving for a higher standard of governance, not a worse one. It's not some kind of race or competition.
Your interpretation would be incorrect. Given that the situation is essentially the same as banks keeping records of customers' transactions, this is not a problem unless the government has unlimited and overreaching access to said information. Is there any evidence of such unlimited and overreaching access? If not, then all this whining is based on unreasonable expectation of having everything "private" which is impossible for the working of modern society.

Now, if we have the situation where the government does not need to go through the regular process to obtain information, then it's an infringement of rights. Before then, there is no particular violation, and all this uproar is nothing but entitlement.
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Old 2013-06-08, 23:36   Link #28777
AnimeFan188
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U.S. Internet Spying Draws Anger, and Envy:

"Europe’s reaction Friday to news of a sweeping international digital surveillance
program by the U.S. government ranged from the outrage of citizens and politicians
to the muted envy of some law enforcement agencies on this side of the Atlantic."

"While privacy advocates condemned the U.S. surveillance program, official reaction
from European capitals was more muted. That might be in part, analysts said,
because some governments already have, or would like to wield, similar powers to
monitor Internet communications."

"“There will be a lot of jealousy among services that the U.S. has these powers,”
said Simone Halink, a spokeswoman for Bits of Freedom, a Dutch digital rights group.
“The fact that a powerful government is doing this, and saying it is doing it in
accordance with the law, is alarming and a reason for increased vigilance.”"

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/bu...anted=all&_r=0
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Old 2013-06-08, 23:55   Link #28778
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Your interpretation would be incorrect. Given that the situation is essentially the same as banks keeping records of customers' transactions, this is not a problem unless the government has unlimited and overreaching access to said information. Is there any evidence of such unlimited and overreaching access? If not, then all this whining is based on unreasonable expectation of having everything "private" which is impossible for the working of modern society.

Now, if we have the situation where the government does not need to go through the regular process to obtain information, then it's an infringement of rights. Before then, there is no particular violation, and all this uproar is nothing but entitlement.
The issue here isn't really about privacy in the strict sense, but trust in what governments and corporations do with the information you give (voluntarily or not). I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but my trust in either institution is at an all time low. Both show gross incompetence and reckless disregard for social improvement.

My uproar personally is that all of this information collecting has helped prevent what crimes, exactly? Stopped terrorists? Nope. Stopped shootings? Nope. Any crime? Nope. All of this information, and they're just as helpless to protect their citizens as they were a decade ago.

So what's the point of spending all of this time and money for something with no tangible benefit? Surely we have more productive things that can be done with our limited resources.

Or is this another case of feeding the beast? Homeland Security is now a money making business, just like the military industrial complex. Contractors rake in millions, if not billions, helping the Government tap phones and collect data. Clearly it's in someones interest to keep all this going even if there's no public benefit to it.
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Old 2013-06-09, 00:11   Link #28779
SaintessHeart
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This argument about entitlement and rights are humourous! Please continue! [/sarcasm]

Entitlement and rights are more or less the same thing. In this case of "cyberspying", it is more of the interpretation of liberty rights - the government thinks that it has the liberty rights to the information of the people, whereas the people think that they have claim rights to their personal information because it is known as "respect for human privacy" not to touch them; the words of liberty and claims are so inverse in a sense that the freedom of rights blur into gray.

If it is taken in the context of Asia as GDB has highlighted, "rights" here is synonymous with "privilege" and both are not independent terms; thanks to a history of electing and allowing would-be megalomaniacs to rule over the indifferent crowd. In the West, power is challenged, but over in the East, power is feared.

We all live in the same world with different concepts - apparently from the point of governance, sometimes "whatever works" can be taken out of hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
We're tired of living in fear. It's very stressful and severely impacts your quality of life. What are we supposed to do against this sort of thing? We can't do anything. Idiots keep voting these other idiots back into office. Nothing's going to change. The system's rigged; the hens are selling their chicks to the fox so he doesn't even have to raid the henhouse.

So yeah. I don't care. I really, really don't. I don't have the energy to care. I've been poor, homeless, ground down by the system in the last seven years. I just don't give any fucks anymore.
QFT.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-06-09 at 00:25.
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Old 2013-06-09, 00:43   Link #28780
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
The issue here isn't really about privacy in the strict sense, but trust in what governments and corporations do with the information you give (voluntarily or not). I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but my trust in either institution is at an all time low. Both show gross incompetence and reckless disregard for social improvement.
That's a personal opinion which you're free to think. Not going to contest it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
My uproar personally is that all of this information collecting has helped prevent what crimes, exactly? Stopped terrorists? Nope. Stopped shootings? Nope. Any crime? Nope. All of this information, and they're just as helpless to protect their citizens as they were a decade ago.

So what's the point of spending all of this time and money for something with no tangible benefit? Surely we have more productive things that can be done with our limited resources.
I suppose this is where it's hard to get information on from my side, at least with the US. I've seen plenty of cases in Japan and Korea where such data-mining solved the puzzle, so I do believe there is some merit.
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