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View Poll Results: Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 12 16.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 46.67%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 18.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 14.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.33%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.33%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.33%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-06-13, 07:54   Link #181
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Now I'm not saying that the Hideauz are like that. But appearances can be deceiving, is my point. There is something more to them than meets the eye, otherwise the moral conflict of the story would have no meaningful impact in the end. The question is what does Ledo do with this knowledge? Nothing? Something?
Well that's in fact one of the strangest point of this series that leaves me a bit confused and skeptical.

It think that it's quite clear that while the Hideauze and the whalesquids are similar they are however still different for many reasons. Chamber found a strong genetic similarity but for all we know there could be the same genetic disparity that exists between humans and gorillas.

In the first place why would some Evolvers be left behind? What if the whalesquids are descendents of "failed" experiments? That would make more sense to me.

At any rate thinking that you can judge the Hideauze by their terrestrial counterparts is a very big assumption. Of course there is enough evidence to conclude that the whalesquids abandoned civilization entirely. Perhaps they still retain some degree of intelligence, but the facts speak clearly, they aren't modifying nor tending their environment in the least.
However how can Chamber be so sure that the same is true for the Hideauze? He knows practically nothing about them. We can tell because he himself stated that the alliance has no data about "Hideauze larvae", and that discovering that was "valuable information". So in other words he doesn't know anything about how is the Hideauze life and society inside one of their nests.

The reason we are now taking for almost certain that the Hideauze have abandoned civilization and intellect, is because Chamber said so in a very important speech, and it makes us think that, regardless of the rationality of such conclusions, it must be true because that sounds like a direct message from the authors.

However logically it shouldn't be. In the first place those flower things do not look anything like the regular squid Hideauze. So if there are different races, there might be some that still retain intelligence.
It would be really very hard to explain how could the Hideauze evolve so much just through natural selection. There is simply no comparison between technology and evolution when it comes to rate of improvement over time. To be on par with that the Hideauze should be able to breed faster than bacteria and viruses, and that's absolutely unrealistic.

It would only make sense if the Hideauze are still evolving through artificial evolution, just like they did in the first place. But there can't be artificial evolution without intelligence. Bio-engineering might be different from mechanic and electronic but it's still a technology. And if bio-engineering is still applied in the Hideauze society then Chamber's logic falls apart.
In that case the "blossom sail" would be a crystallization of the Hideauze's civilization as much as machine calibers and dimenstriums are a crystallization of the GA's civilization.


So right now I don't quite know what to think. It really seems that the show is meant to make us think about these two different "survival strategies" as Chamber explained them. So perhaps Chamber is right, but I don't think that's very credible in realistic terms.
Or maybe that's just another trick of the authors and it will then be revealed that the Hideauze can still talk and comprehend human language (not quite believing that right now), but then I'd still find strange that the rational Chamber made such hasty conclusions with so little evidence.
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Old 2013-06-13, 10:41   Link #182
cf18
Mecha Pilot
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadallin View Post
Alright this is way out there in epileptic trees land, but, how do we know that isn't precisely what's happened to the Galactic Alliance as a whole?

Who runs the galactic alliance? What if its just AIs in some Asimov style Laws of Robotics situation? Their AIs can think for themselves and in a highly self serving fashion.

"You, a machine, are telling me, a human, what to do?"

Indeed. Chamber decided to do it, what if (at any point in the implied previous thousands of years), the AIs of the machine calibres decided it was necessary to protect humanity?
Yes it is quite possible that some super A.I. is running the Alliance, after having the same conclusion that Chamber had. One thing stands out for me after Chamber's speech is that this A.I. is pretty damn smart, so why did it still need a pilot to fight? Do the Alliance think human must fight on the front line against Hideauze to prove that they are equal, for this "human dignity" thing? Or to avoid the A.I. to conclude that they are the next evolution or successor of humanity, should they win the war without human?
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Old 2013-06-13, 18:46   Link #183
Moe Connection
Basileus Basileōn
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by cf18 View Post
Yes it is quite possible that some super A.I. is running the Alliance, after having the same conclusion that Chamber had. One thing stands out for me after Chamber's speech is that this A.I. is pretty damn smart, so why did it still need a pilot to fight? Do the Alliance think human must fight on the front line against Hideauze to prove that they are equal, for this "human dignity" thing? Or to avoid the A.I. to conclude that they are the next evolution or successor of humanity, should they win the war without human?
I suspect it might have something to do with not enough resources for everyone, and extra humans are sent to the front to die or return as a man/woman 'worthy' of reproducing the next generation.
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Old 2013-06-13, 19:47   Link #184
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Space faring Hideauze may well be imprinted with evolutionary drive to wipe out humanity due to the arisen conflict between the evolvers vs CU. From the records that Ledo saw, they were an active participant in the war even if they were initially defending themselves. But by the end, they choose to hijack CU's wormhole portal to spread themselves through out the galaxy. If evolvers already are capable of space travel themselves and continues evolution to adapt to space, to simply escape earth should not require actively attack or sabotage CU's effort to escape earth. After all, they chose to evolve into space squids to live and travel interstellar space. The wording seems to imply that the leadership of the evolvers essentially wanted a galaxy dominated by evolvers and they were willing to strand the CU faction to a dying earth to do so, while CU is basically doing the same. It's a war between two factions of humanity wanting their own branch becoming the dominant life form that flourishes in space.

The whale squids are basically original attempts at evolving humans before adapting to space. It isn't really a failed experiment but rather a remnant of initial prototypes of evolvers. There is likely a parallel between their evolution compare to their space faring brethren. Individuality and civilization is devolved as a cost of species evolution into improved biological abilities each whale squid possesses. However, sea being a more limited environment and few conflicts during their existence have caused a much slower evolution compare to the space Hideauze. The initial evolvers were hybrid human/squids but the whale squids are no longer human at all despite appearing have human fetus like features at their initial birth cycle. One can argue the space Hideauze have evolved in the same manner but much more rapidly and long ago have ceased to be human but rather a completely different space faring life form with initially programmed evolution drive set by the evolvers.
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