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Old 2013-03-14, 18:07   Link #1221
GreyZone
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And after we saw the effects of the Battle of PunkHazard... I really have to wonder how Luffy can ever reach THAT level of strenght... 2 admirals whose powers were around WB's level... I am really excited to see how Oda will pull this off.
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Old 2013-03-14, 18:10   Link #1222
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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There are people who have no devil fruit abilities at all and have risen to the very top through sheer haki mastery. Luffy will definitely get there someday.
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Old 2013-04-23, 21:29   Link #1223
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^ No problem. And although Whitebeard was labelled as the "strongest", his performance at the war leads that title of his into question. There were points where the admirals were besting him in combat, after all. I think the world perceived Whitebeard as the strongest because he was the only known individual to have actually tied Roger in a fight, and was uncontested for that title ever since Roger's death. Not everyone actually challenged Whitebeard; and therefore, as you suggest, there may have been some individuals more powerful unbeknownst to us. Whitebeard in his prime is one thing, which is where his reputation of strongest stems from. But the old sick Whitebeard that we actually saw in action may not have been the strongest.
I disagree, if anything the old whitebeard showed exactly why he is the strongest. We have to consider the fact that Whitebeard was already stabbed by Squardo before he started engaging the heavy hitters and he was never in direct one to one fight with the admirals.

In the end, he was able to take out Akainu and still have energy to take on Blackbeard. This to me shows tremendous strength beyond any character we have seen in the series. Taking the fact of his old age and deteriorating health, he must have been that much stronger in his prime.
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Old 2013-04-23, 21:56   Link #1224
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^ Whitebeard temporarily incapacitated Akainu, and even then that was at the cost of being fatally wounded (he lost half his face). So technically, it can be argued that Akainu won that skirmish. He got up shortly afterwards and was still trucking through people like nothing.
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Old 2013-04-24, 14:44   Link #1225
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^ Whitebeard temporarily incapacitated Akainu, and even then that was at the cost of being fatally wounded (he lost half his face). So technically, it can be argued that Akainu won that skirmish. He got up shortly afterwards and was still trucking through people like nothing.
You seem to ignore the other 267 sword wounds, 152 gunshot wounds and 46 wounds from cannonballs, and various other damaged he received through out the fight. Whitebeard didn't take on Akainu, he took him along with an entire army; Heck by the time the two had that final exchange Whitebeard was already certain he was going to die. Whitebeard was so dominating, that it was clear from their brief encounter that had they fought one-on-one, Akainu wouldn't have stood a chance. Like for instance the fact that Whitebeard wouldn't have simply left Akainu incapacitated, and instead would have either killed him or given him another shot or two to make sure he STAYED down. In essence, Akainu only survived and got up again because Whitebeard had an army to fight.
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Old 2013-04-24, 15:57   Link #1226
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You seem to ignore the other 267 sword wounds, 152 gunshot wounds and 46 wounds from cannonballs, and various other damaged he received through out the fight. Whitebeard didn't take on Akainu, he took him along with an entire army; Heck by the time the two had that final exchange Whitebeard was already certain he was going to die. Whitebeard was so dominating, that it was clear from their brief encounter that had they fought one-on-one, Akainu wouldn't have stood a chance. Like for instance the fact that Whitebeard wouldn't have simply left Akainu incapacitated, and instead would have either killed him or given him another shot or two to make sure he STAYED down. In essence, Akainu only survived and got up again because Whitebeard had an army to fight.
I've taken all that into account. Doesn't really change much, because it was Akainu and Blackbeard that dealt the real fatal blows on Whitebeard (the heart attack he suffered was also problematic). And like I said before, Akainu proceeded to steam roll everyone shortly afterwards. Whitebeard would have had to dish out a lot more than he did to make sure Akainu would really stay down. The guy is a tank.

The admirals proved themselves to be on par with Whitebeard. Jozu had to step in and help the old man against Aokiji. Kizaru didn't sustain any injuries. And these skirmishes were before Whitebeard was in a near-death state.

What happened here is that Whitebeard didn't quite live up to people's expectations. He may have been the strongest man in the world, but that doesn't mean he was so far above everyone else (and the war proved that). It's still debated to this day if he was in fact the strongest right before his death, because his performance at Marineford wasn't exactly the greatest. You may be an advocate of him being the strongest pre-skip, but one thing that's certain is that he wouldn't stomp another top-tier fighter because that wouldn't make any sense.
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Old 2013-04-24, 16:44   Link #1227
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I've taken all that into account. Doesn't really change much, because it was Akainu and Blackbeard that dealt the real fatal blows on Whitebeard (the heart attack he suffered was also problematic). And like I said before, Akainu proceeded to steam roll everyone shortly afterwards. Whitebeard would have had to dish out a lot more than he did to make sure Akainu would really stay down. The guy is a tank.
Saying you have taken them account doesn't just negate them. Those are insane wounds to have while fighting top-tier folks. The fact that he took out both Akainu and Blackweird with those wounds still is an amazing achievement. As you mentioned, he fought with half his face gone and still won. If he had been healthier, obviously nothing stood in his way to deal the finishing blow to both of them.

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What happened here is that Whitebeard didn't quite live up to people's expectations. He may have been the strongest man in the world, but that doesn't mean he was so far above everyone else (and the war proved that). It's still debated to this day if he was in fact the strongest right before his death, because his performance at Marineford wasn't exactly the greatest. You may be an advocate of him being the strongest pre-skip, but one thing that's certain is that he wouldn't stomp another top-tier fighter because that wouldn't make any sense.
Speculating about people being disappointed in Whitebeard's performance doesn't actually further you claim, I for one wasn't actually expecting him to get as far as he did at the beginning of the war. Personally I was thinking they would have him die in the middle and have some other big figure, Shanks, Rayleigh, or Dragon finish of the second end. To me, Whitebeard showed exactly why he was the "still" strongest in the world during the war.
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Old 2013-04-24, 16:48   Link #1228
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He's still the strongest if he was healthier (and he can still go toe to toe with the admirals even while he's sick). I'd guess he was at 65% capacity.
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Old 2013-04-24, 16:52   Link #1229
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Saying you have taken them account doesn't just negate them. Those are insane wounds to have while fighting top-tier folks. The fact that he took out both Akainu and Blackweird with those wounds still is an amazing achievement. As you mentioned, he fought with half his face gone and still won. If he had been healthier, obviously nothing stood in his way to deal the finishing blow to both of them.
Whitebeard didn't take out Blackbeard. Blackbeard and his crew ganged up on him and dealt the finishing blows. And after that happened, Blackbeard was wreaking havoc throughout the battlefield with minimal injuries.

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Speculating about people being disappointed in Whitebeard's performance doesn't actually further you claim, I for one wasn't actually expecting him to get as far as he did at the beginning of the war. Personally I was thinking they would have him die in the middle and have some other big figure, Shanks, Rayleigh, or Dragon finish of the second end. To me, Whitebeard showed exactly why he was the "still" strongest in the world during the war.
It's not speculation. It's anecdotal evidence from this forum and other forums I've visited. Some people had asinine expectations where Whitebeard would destroy an admiral in a fight. That simply didn't happen. If anything, the admirals got the better of him during the war. He took down Akainu, but at the cost of a fatal blow. Not exactly the greatest way to prove your superiority over someone.
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Old 2013-04-24, 18:46   Link #1230
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Whitebeard didn't take out Blackbeard. Blackbeard and his crew ganged up on him and dealt the finishing blows. And after that happened, Blackbeard was wreaking havoc throughout the battlefield with minimal injuries.



It's not speculation. It's anecdotal evidence from this forum and other forums I've visited. Some people had asinine expectations where Whitebeard would destroy an admiral in a fight. That simply didn't happen. If anything, the admirals got the better of him during the war. He took down Akainu, but at the cost of a fatal blow. Not exactly the greatest way to prove your superiority over someone.
Whitebeard pretty much showed that he could have easily handled blackbeard. The fact that his insane injuries from fighting everyone prevented him from actually finishing off blackbeard doesn't change the fact that clearly Whitebeard was stronger of the two. Same for Akainu, he is lying there helpless as he slid off the platform. Whitebeard could have easily finished him off but he had other concerns of protecting his crew and making his last stand.

Off course we know Whitebeard does not in-fact finish them off but the evidence of these two final encounters with Akainu and Blackbeard clearly show he was superior, even in his injured, old and sick stage. I do agree that you probably have a better case with Aojiki and Kizaru, there is less evidence of Whitebeard's superiority (and one piece does have at least some indication of non-linearity in terms of power levels). However, I do think that Whitebeard was still injured and not directly fighting those two so it can be inferred that he could take them in a one to one from what he did to Akainu and Blackbeard.

An anecdotal evidence is a form of speculation and remember the plural of anecdotes is not data. My anecdote of my own personal experience is speculation enough to counter your anecdotal experience of the situation.
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Old 2013-04-24, 19:14   Link #1231
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An anecdotal evidence is a form of speculation and remember the plural of anecdotes is not data. My anecdote of my own personal experience is speculation enough to counter your anecdotal experience of the situation.
It's not speculation when some people outright made those claims. That's a fact, which is what I'm talking about. You're new here; this was back a few years ago when the arc was being serialized in weekly shounen jump. So no, your own interpretation doesn't counter anything because I never claimed all people made the inference I'm talking about. I simply pointed out a factual observation, to which no refutation can be made.

Anyways, Whitebeard didn't exactly prove his superiority over Akainu. It's not something to boast about when you've lost half your face and are about to die whereas your opponent will get up a few minutes later as though nothing happened. Furthermore, in their first skirmish, Akainu and Whitebeard were evenly matched.
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Old 2013-04-26, 02:45   Link #1232
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As of now its hard to tell, before it was WhiteBeard but with him out of the way its any ones game. Luffy as not at that level I think, hes one of the strongest Supernova but...I really do hope we get a big Luffy fight soon to see how far hes come, who can fight this early on? Cuz so far, every one hes fought has been push overs so we can't really tell.

Ask for the topic itself, I think that belongs to Shanks now, thats my opinion though and I really don't feel like getting into a debate this late blah.
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Old 2013-06-16, 07:43   Link #1233
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Pre timeskip the answer is obvious.
Going into this battle with a major health deterioration and a through-and-through wound right besides the heart, smashing through vide admirals (the third strongest force of the marines) like they are nothing, bypassing one admiral and engaging with another without getting a single scratch until he received the fatal heart attack is just crazy. While doing this Whitebeard was 72 years old and wasn't even fighting seriously as seen when Ace died and he destroyed an admiral (!) in two hits.
This battle was proof why Whitebeard was called the strongest man alive and that he truly deserved this title.

Post timeskip it's another story. With WB's seat left open a couple of hard-hitters come to mind. Personally I'd like to see Luffy and Zoro in a challenging fight so we can compare their strength a little bit better.
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Old 2013-06-16, 09:54   Link #1234
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Pre timeskip the answer is obvious.
Going into this battle with a major health deterioration and a through-and-through wound right besides the heart, smashing through vide admirals (the third strongest force of the marines) like they are nothing, bypassing one admiral and engaging with another without getting a single scratch until he received the fatal heart attack is just crazy. While doing this Whitebeard was 72 years old and wasn't even fighting seriously as seen when Ace died and he destroyed an admiral (!) in two hits.
This battle was proof why Whitebeard was called the strongest man alive and that he truly deserved this title.
The vice admirals vary in strength. So the two that he took out (Ronse and John Giant) may have been among the weaker ones. Bypassing an admiral? He had to get help to get through the admirals. Marco intervened when Kizaru directed his Yasakani no Magatama at Whitebeard; Jozu stepped in to deal with Aokiji when Whitebeard was in trouble; and against Akainu, that's when he was on his own and really struggled.

To say that Whitebeard wasn't even fighting seriously is silly. The severity of the situation (saving Ace) certainly didn't warrant Whitebeard to mess around. It was a matter of life and death, and we know how seriously Whitebeard takes the well-being of his sons. I've already commented extensively on the final duel between Whitebeard and Akainu. Getting up mere moments later doesn't constitute being "destroyed" (gotta love when people use hyperboles). And it's funny how the Whitebeard advocates (I'm not necessarily saying that you are one) ignore the fact that Whitebeard had to get a cheap-shot in on Akainu in order to put him down just temporarily.

Was Whitebeard the strongest pre-skip? Until proven otherwise, yes, he was. However, to say that he was considerably stronger than the other top tiers is flat-out erroneous, as demonstrated by the war.

I remember before the war even started, some people were actually saying that Whitebeard could take on all 3 admirals by himself. Any sensible person knows that's idiotic and illogical considering the balance of power between the marines, shichibukai, and yonkou.
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Old 2013-06-16, 17:43   Link #1235
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The vice admirals vary in strength. So the two that he took out (Ronse and John Giant) may have been among the weaker ones. Bypassing an admiral? He had to get help to get through the admirals. Marco intervened when Kizaru directed his Yasakani no Magatama at Whitebeard; Jozu stepped in to deal with Aokiji when Whitebeard was in trouble; and against Akainu, that's when he was on his own and really struggled.
The vice admirals may be the two weakest, you are right. But on the other hand they could also be the two strongest
I'm not a WB fanboy (my favs are Ace and Zoro) but in my eyes it was a little bit different.
The quarrel with Aokiji was leading nowhere and ended with one ineffective attack from each side. Jozu's interference was not because Whitebeard was in trouble, he just wanted to stall Aokiji so Whitebeard could move on to the platform.
Same with Akainu. Until Whitebeards heart attack they didn't do anything. Remember that at this point WB was 72 years old, had a mortal illness and was stabbed next to the heart.
After the heart attack, Akainu's attack and the engagement of numerous marines he just crushed them.
The fight against Borsalino was not really interesting. Despite the wounds he suffered while the admiral was still in good health he had time to watch Ace's rescue, afterwards stop the paddle ship one-handed and even nearly destroying marineford with one hit - let alone the fact that after he was half dead he split the island in two.
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To say that Whitebeard wasn't even fighting seriously is silly. The severity of the situation (saving Ace) certainly didn't warrant Whitebeard to mess around. It was a matter of life and death, and we know how seriously Whitebeard takes the well-being of his sons.
Of course it was matter of life and death. But the first time Whitebeard was agitated was the moment when his illness stopped him from using haoshoku. Before, he was sure that he could prolong the execution till he gets to the platform. It's obvious when you compare his first and second fight with Akainu. In the second fight he just sent him to the ground with two hits (I'm sure getting half his face blown off could have been avoided but he knew he was gonna die anyway. We can't prove that so I won't use it as an argument) after which Akainu collapsed and was falling off the platform until Whitebeard was killed by the Blackbeards. He could have easily killed Akainu but he had other worries which were more pressing.
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And it's funny how the Whitebeard advocates (I'm not necessarily saying that you are one) ignore the fact that Whitebeard had to get a cheap-shot in on Akainu in order to put him down just temporarily.
Cheap shot? In this war people were attacked when being distracted all the time and nearly no one was taken by surprise. Especially Akainu who was hearing the approach of the Moby Dick although he was far away at the platform wouldn't be hit like this if it wasn't a really stealthy attack from Whitebeard. In my eyes this contributs even more to his strength.
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Was Whitebeard the strongest pre-skip? Until proven otherwise, yes, he was. However, to say that he was considerably stronger than the other top tiers is flat-out erroneous, as demonstrated by the war.
I was merely saying that the answer is obvious and that he truly deserved the title...

Well, I read through a couple of your statements and I don't think there will be any consensus. To me those battles were just awesome and I share Sengoku's opinion that Whitebeard back then was the strongest man alive.

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Old 2013-06-17, 16:50   Link #1236
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The quarrel with Aokiji was leading nowhere and ended with one ineffective attack from each side. Jozu's interference was not because Whitebeard was in trouble, he just wanted to stall Aokiji so Whitebeard could move on to the platform.
Same with Akainu. Until Whitebeards heart attack they didn't do anything. Remember that at this point WB was 72 years old, had a mortal illness and was stabbed next to the heart.
The point is that Whitebeard had problems getting by Aokiji, and before Jozu's intervention it looked like the latter was gaining the upper hand. Make of that what you will.

WB's age and sickness are what he was during his time in the story. That's the way he was presented to us, and we never caught a glimpse of just how much stronger he was in his prime. So using these factors as excuses doesn't quite fly here because it is what it is. WB's prime is irrelevant. We're comparing feats that we actually saw.

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Of course it was matter of life and death. But the first time Whitebeard was agitated was the moment when his illness stopped him from using haoshoku. Before, he was sure that he could prolong the execution till he gets to the platform. It's obvious when you compare his first and second fight with Akainu. In the second fight he just sent him to the ground with two hits (I'm sure getting half his face blown off could have been avoided but he knew he was gonna die anyway. We can't prove that so I won't use it as an argument) after which Akainu collapsed and was falling off the platform until Whitebeard was killed by the Blackbeards. He could have easily killed Akainu but he had other worries which were more pressing.
Temporarily incapacitating Akainu at the cost of suffering a fatal wound (losing half his face). That doesn't exactly imply convincing superiority over the opposition. To say that he could have also easily killed Akainu is questionable, seeing as how the admiral returned mere moments later as though he was hardly damaged. He kept trucking through anyone that got in his way subsequent to his duel with WB. That being said, WB would have had to put a lot more effort to really put Akainu down. That much is evident.

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Cheap shot? In this war people were attacked when being distracted all the time and nearly no one was taken by surprise. Especially Akainu who was hearing the approach of the Moby Dick although he was far away at the platform wouldn't be hit like this if it wasn't a really stealthy attack from Whitebeard. In my eyes this contributs even more to his strength.
WB had to get a hit from behind to deal good damage to Akainu. This scenario was essentially no different than Kizaru and Aokiji taking advantage of Marco and Jozu being distracted, respectfully. Oda did that for a reason, because otherwise the fights would have been much longer and there was no time for that.

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Well, I read through a couple of your statements and I don't think there will be any consensus. To me those battles were just awesome and I share Sengoku's opinion that Whitebeard back then was the strongest man alive.
I don't have an issue with this. But to say that WB was much stronger than the rest is simply wrong.
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Old 2013-06-18, 04:37   Link #1237
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The point is that Whitebeard had problems getting by Aokiji, and before Jozu's intervention it looked like the latter was gaining the upper hand. Make of that what you will.
I really didn't see Aokiji getting the upper hand. Are you reffering to the anime? Because I only read the mange.

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WB's age and sickness are what he was during his time in the story. That's the way he was presented to us, and we never caught a glimpse of just how much stronger he was in his prime. So using these factors as excuses doesn't quite fly here because it is what it is. WB's prime is irrelevant. We're comparing feats that we actually saw.
All you said is true, except the stab from Squard. But nevertheless was he referred to by every character from this world (even Sengoku) as the strongest man.

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Temporarily incapacitating Akainu at the cost of suffering a fatal wound (losing half his face). That doesn't exactly imply convincing superiority over the opposition. To say that he could have also easily killed Akainu is questionable, seeing as how the admiral returned mere moments later as though he was hardly damaged. He kept trucking through anyone that got in his way subsequent to his duel with WB. That being said, WB would have had to put a lot more effort to really put Akainu down. That much is evident.
To me Akainu was down long enough to be finished off, but I think we won't agree on that one. As I implied, I think he could have avoided losing half his face but I won't argue further... we just have different interpretations regarding that scene.

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WB had to get a hit from behind to deal good damage to Akainu. This scenario was essentially no different than Kizaru and Aokiji taking advantage of Marco and Jozu being distracted, respectfully. Oda did that for a reason, because otherwise the fights would have been much longer and there was no time for that.
I think those scenes are a little bit different because Jozu and Marci were distracted right at that moment whereas Akainu was merely fighting another person (like when Jozu attacked Aokiji). That's why I'm saying that I give props to WB for sneaking up on Akainu which isn't the most simple feat to achieve.

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I don't have an issue with this. But to say that WB was much stronger than the rest is simply wrong.
I agree. He was the strongest but not in a way that he could take on several top tier fighters.
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Old 2013-06-18, 10:09   Link #1238
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My own personal $.02 on this, just for the heck of it:

Pre-timeskip- definitely whitebeard. However, it wasn't just Whitebeard alone that forced the Marines to play their entire hand- there's always the fact that he also had all his command ships plus his New World allies with him, and THAT'S why all the strength the marines had was mustered. As for Whitebeard himself... well, certainly in his prime, he was strong enough take on Gol D. Roger (I'm just going to say it here and now, Gol D. Roger was most likely the strongest character of all time in the entire story, with Garp, Sengoku and Whitebeard pretty much right behind him... but that's 22~24 years before the story began). But since Blackbeard here keeps pointing out that we're debating Whitebeard at Marineford... well, this is very gray territory. I would say he could have taken on one admiral with relative ease, especially at the very beginning of the war, before Squardo stabbed him. Maybe even two of the admirals, though two would definitely be a challenge, especially considering all injuries and his age. As for all three.... that's pushing the envelope. Heck, all three working together managed to repel his Earthquake attack.

Post time skip... well, we have yet to see a lot of the powerhouses from the war in action; in fact, I think that currently we've only had mere glimpses of some of the current powerhouses (Aokiji, who even after leaving the marines has to be nearly as powerful as pre-timeskip, and then there's Doflamingo, who I consider to be the strongest out of all the Shichibukai... and we've only seen the newest admiral give even a hint of what he can do). But, I'm going to stick with my guns and say that Shanks is the strongest character currently... it's my general belief that anyone who has an incredible mastery of haki, such as Shanks (and I personally believe Roger also had extremely powerful haki), are the strongest characters in the story, possibly even above the admirals. Now maybe it was just because there were two Emperors total at the battlefield, but it seemed like Akainu, who is All Pirates Must Be Killed, didn't even want to face Shanks, so that tells you something about Shank's power.
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Old 2013-06-18, 17:02   Link #1239
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But since Blackbeard here keeps pointing out that we're debating Whitebeard at Marineford... well, this is very gray territory. I would say he could have taken on one admiral with relative ease, especially at the very beginning of the war, before Squardo stabbed him. Maybe even two of the admirals, though two would definitely be a challenge, especially considering all injuries and his age. As for all three.... that's pushing the envelope. Heck, all three working together managed to repel his Earthquake attack.
Going by feats we've seen, there isn't a single character capable of handling an admiral with relative ease. There's a reason they're considered the "marines highest battle potential" and "ultimate assault force". And it's not like the 3 admirals really exerted themselves deflecting WB's quake away from the platform.

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Now maybe it was just because there were two Emperors total at the battlefield, but it seemed like Akainu, who is All Pirates Must Be Killed, didn't even want to face Shanks, so that tells you something about Shank's power.
Akainu would have probably kept going if it were not for Sengoku's order to end the war. He hasn't shown any fear towards anyone, after all.
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Old 2013-06-20, 03:40   Link #1240
ri0
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Where everything is dangerous - I'm starting to like this place
I think so too. Easily taking on two admirals at the same time would be, even for Whitebeard, a little bit too much.

Anyways, I'm really looking forward to Doflamingo's, Fujitora's and Luffy's/Zoro's performance in the upcoming chapters to see how far the Mugiwaras in comparison to the Top Tiers have come.
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