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Old 2013-05-26, 20:21   Link #4281
Thryfe
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Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
He should already know how to use Shirou without him going to the house right? Kotomine says the crest worm in Sakura is normally used for reconnaissance, he can see what shes doing and in that first day Sakura sorta flirts with Shirou and Shirou says itll be a problem if Fuji-nee hears her talk like that. Zouken SHOULD know this I think. Also in the Fate route Sakura also sees the mark on Shirou's hand, its bleeding rather than just a bruise and her face pales when she sees that as well. So whats confusing me is that the same events happen albeit a bit differently but should have the same result, if that's the case Zouken had no reason not to act in Fate as well. So I guess it comes down to it in Fate that tiny spark does open for whatever reason since they most definitely had the same conversation. While in HF it does, so its sort of like a what IF scenario then? Is that right? idk its just silly to me that such a tiiiiiny difference means he doesn't act in Fate, he even said himself, he has all the pieces he needs, why would he give up on Sakura after a single conversation. He been waiting 500 years. I guess its just my opinion and im being stubborn lol.
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Old 2013-05-26, 20:42   Link #4282
Dark Faith
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Because the explanation are just a way to give away what, in the end, I canít really put myself behind as story telling detail. I never say it canít be explain, I am saying isnít kind of stellar. And there is no point to say it canít work in a more open story when we already have an example where a Fate series does give more room to all Master/Servant teams. FSN doesnít do it for any reasons they might had and they create something good, just not flawed.

The discussion is over if this can affect the routes quality and I think it does. Because you can tell me yeah, Zouken wanted to play bingo during the other routes or he take vacations on Hawaii or was waiting for things to happen on its own, etc. that isnít the point. He didnít appear and might as well seem he was just not in there at all. You canít really go away with the ďlittle hintsĒ if in the end the character was so irrelevant to the previous routes we can pretend he was dead on those. Point being, some characters are kind of waste in other routes. I think it does matter and I canít really just take it, you can. So yes, we agree to disagree there.
Each route deals with different issues and even has different protagonists, so of course that other characters won't get as much "air time" as they had in other routes. It's not that they've disappeared, but they've become minor characters within the route, so their actions are known through small details instead of major exposition.

Just sounds to me that your inability to read between the lines (or perhaps inexperience when it comes to the VN genre) is having a negative impact on your enjoyment of the game...
...either that, or you've decided to play it after watching Fate/Zero and expected the same kind of storytelling.
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Old 2013-05-26, 21:33   Link #4283
Altima of the Gates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
He should already know how to use Shirou without him going to the house right? Kotomine says the crest worm in Sakura is normally used for reconnaissance, he can see what shes doing and in that first day Sakura sorta flirts with Shirou and Shirou says itll be a problem if Fuji-nee hears her talk like that. Zouken SHOULD know this I think. Also in the Fate route Sakura also sees the mark on Shirou's hand, its bleeding rather than just a bruise and her face pales when she sees that as well. So whats confusing me is that the same events happen albeit a bit differently but should have the same result, if that's the case Zouken had no reason not to act in Fate as well. So I guess it comes down to it in Fate that tiny spark does open for whatever reason since they most definitely had the same conversation. While in HF it does, so its sort of like a what IF scenario then? Is that right? idk its just silly to me that such a tiiiiiny difference means he doesn't act in Fate, he even said himself, he has all the pieces he needs, why would he give up on Sakura after a single conversation. He been waiting 500 years. I guess its just my opinion and im being stubborn lol.
Remember the conversation Shirou has with Zouken. He had her do reconnaissance at the Emiya household, but Sakura reports him as harmless. Zouken didn't know he was a participant yet. There is the difference, and there is the leverage he uses. His familiars can detect things and he can re-educate her from afar, but he only knows as much as she tells him about Shirou, which is nothing. This changes and he trolls everyone in HF, starting with him talking one on one with Shirou, one thing being that he is surprised that Shirou doesn't know anything about the Einzbern, so there are some things he isn't aware of until he personally talks with Shirou. A tiny ripple can be the start of a big wave.
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Old 2013-05-26, 22:48   Link #4284
Thryfe
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Remember the conversation Shirou has with Zouken. He had her do reconnaissance at the Emiya household, but Sakura reports him as harmless. Zouken didn't know he was a participant yet. There is the difference, and there is the leverage he uses. His familiars can detect things and he can re-educate her from afar, but he only knows as much as she tells him about Shirou, which is nothing. This changes and he trolls everyone in HF, starting with him talking one on one with Shirou, one thing being that he is surprised that Shirou doesn't know anything about the Einzbern, so there are some things he isn't aware of until he personally talks with Shirou. A tiny ripple can be the start of a big wave.
Well see your absolutely right on all of that. Here is what gets me though, you said he didn't know he was a participant yet. He already declares Sakura as perfect he just needs to motivate her. Even though Shirou doesn't go to the house in Fate Zouken is still going to try something if Sakura is perfect, why would he quit after a single conversation if shes perfect. Let's say he just lets it go right, at some point in time he is going to figure out Shirou is a master, he says it himself "If the conditions aren't perfect, I should restrict myself to just watching" If he is watching he WILL find out Shirou is a master, he is going to put two and two together. I hate to say it but the guy isn't stupid, the moment he figures it out he is going to try and pull the same crap as in HF.
He doesn't even mention Shirou, he goes on and on about how this war is practically useless and then says The condition to fight for the Holy Grail is terrible.
" But one thing that "thing" created after a lot of work has been completed perfectly." Also it's mentioning Rin that sets Sakura off, Sakura immediately ties that to Rin killing Shirou. You may say well that's because he knows that Sakura and Shirou are friends and close because of that walk home. If he is just observing in the war he will no doubt see that they have that connection again. Then he will give her the whole Rin will win speech and that will trigger Sakura.
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Old 2013-05-27, 08:56   Link #4285
Altima of the Gates
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Like I said, it was really because the stars aligned the way he wanted, and she let her guard down somewhat because she happened to be worried about Shirou that night as they talked, which would be the difference, the scene in question points out that her finding out Shirou had the mark was the dealbreaker.

Its possible that he could take advantage of other things(he uses Rin, Shirou, and her pity for Shinji in HF for example), but Nasu 100% confirmed that it would not go down as it had in the other routes, nor would the Black Grail be manifested.
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Old 2013-05-27, 08:58   Link #4286
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Anyway, there are plenty of hints on things hiding under the surface, so smart and observant readers should be able to pick up various things. Sakura takes somewhat of a backseat on Fate and UBW, but at the same time, there are various hints about her and her personality that go beyond just being the girl next door, its why I liked her in the first place. Like her relationship with Rin and the foreshadowings of it are shown, her relationship with Shirou and Taiga, and honestly, if you thought she was a regular girl, you were kind of delusional, there were hints and things everywhere.

For example:

Spoiler:


I dunno, I just find that people don't pay enough attention to the subtle things put into this story. It is supposed to be enjoyed slowly and digested like a novel, because that is what it is. And there is a lot to digest.
Yeah, there's a bunch of things that are hinting at Sakura and Rin being connected in some manner. For example, in UBW when Rin is spying on Sakura, and asks about what it's like to be adopted.

Also, are you sure Sakura is mentioned as one of the victims of the bloodfort? That seems odd to me, given that she's Rider's real master and, also, a powerful magus.

Quote:
@Thryfe

Spoiler:
Well, actually we don't know if he's dead, although I would agree it's not likely. Just because there's a war in ten years it doesn't mean Kotomine couldn't have managed to kill him.

Also, why are you using spoiler-tags, this is a thread for free spoilering?

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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
I just think he might not be a visual novel person, his feelings on Sakura aside, he ignored all my points on interconnectivity between routes and made the same asanine assertion of Fate just being tedious, when there was pertinent information everywhere. It is a novel, not an anime, so visual novels are probably not for him.
Well, you're not exactly the best person ever at explaining things, or at living with people who don't do exactly what you tell them or have their own opinions that don't agree with yours, so....

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
So is more my feeling that you could answer all the questions in one route and still use other versions to tell different stories. Not just spread all elements in three unbalance parts that together make a whole of: three incomplete connected stories. It might work for some, but to me just doesnít click right.
How could you? If every single character was alive to the end of every route there wouldn't be a story, and if you killed the same characters off in every route then the story would just be the same.

And, also, doing it that way would remove all possible suspense. Whilst I don't like how Sakura is entirely ignored in UBW and Fate, to the point that we genuinely do not have a clue what her fate might be, if her relationship with Rin and mastership of Rider was covered in the other two routes then HF would have no suspense. Further, I'm not sure how we could cover all that in a way that didn't end up looking ridiculous in the way the Sakura elements of the anime did.

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Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
Ya I found out that I had parts wrong and what Kotomine says in Japanese would still translate to him saying "The old Makiri has already retired". I just figured that since Kotomine used the word impossible in the sentence before hand that it would be a euphemism for death.

I just thought it odd how the dang guy spent 500 years trying to get the grail and weather he could use Sakura or not just sits by and lets it get destroyed in Fate. Or the possibility of Kotomine getting it. The only scenario I could think of was since Kotomine decided Zouken was a threat that needed to be killed back in Zero, he would get rid of the guy with the baptism rite or with Gilamesh and Lancer. Just to keep him from interfering in the 5th war. I hadn't considered the dismantling, wasn't the Greater Grail wiped out in Fate though?
It's not destroyed, at least not in Fate or UBW. In the absense of any further actions, the Grail Wars would continue, although Nasu has confirmed it will be dismantled in around 10 years time.

Also, killing Zouken without also killing Sakura is quite difficult, and I very much doubt Kotomine would be overly bothered about killing Sakura if it made his life easier. So, the fact that she's still alive and shows no signs of trauma from having Zouken removed from her implies he's probably not dead.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Maybe you are right. I am just saying that, to me, doesnít quite work. Because it ends making some characters look like they wasted my time with their small appearances that ended being irrelevant to the story. Because what explain them is relevant in another story, so why bother to have them here now? I am questioning the execution.
Not every single character in a story can be relevant, sometimes you just need cannon fodder, or background characters just to make the world look real. The only difference here is that the background characters get some importance of their own in different routes.

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Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
ah, I've only completed the visual novel so I haven't looked into Fate/zero in depth. Though I know what generally happened.
So all in all it seems Zouken sticks around until the dismantling is decided and he probably steps in to stop that. Nasu mentions that Sakura doesn't become the black grail in any route, so where would she fit in the Dismantling scenario lol?
Well, that's not clear. It's likely to end with her either being rescued or dead, though, if she's not already.

Quote:
I just remembered, the very last time we hear of him is in HF after Sakura pulls him out and crushes his main body. He is on the brink of disappearing and the only thing that's keeping him around is his desire for the thing he tried to obtain all his life is a right in front of him. Right before seeing Illya reminds him of justeaze. The grail was at its most corrupt at that point and based off that scene he clearly wanted it right?
Zouken couldn't care less if the Grail is corrupt, but he does care how easy it is to win and whether it will do what he wants it to. The Grail in the fifth war is "imperfect" due to the odd nature of the war, so he sees it as unlikely that it will do what he desires. However, in HF the set-up is so good for him (due to Sakura's power) that he decides to go for it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
But that makes me wonder. If Zouken wanted the Grail so bad why he doesnít do anything in Fate or UBW if he is alive? That is one of my problems with the routes. They are different and yet we are told all the elements in each route are present in all the routes so why some characters decide to do nothing in some routes while in others they decide to act is, at least to me, odd.
Because the chance of him winning without Sakura being willing to fight is too low for him to risk his own life by getting involved directly, and the Grail is also imperfect due to various factors (e.g. Caster summoning a fake servant). He knows there will be other, better, opportunities, so he decides not to do anything to endanger himself.

And, he's not exactly doing nothing, as such, he's still got Shinji fighting on his behalf. He just isn't doing anything that might put him in direct danger.

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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Zouken didn't do anything because he couldn't find any way to control Sakura. In HF, he finds a great weakness for her and exploits it, and that is what causes the accidental contract to be established with AM. Otherwise, it doesn't happen and he waits until the next war, because she refuses to fight.
He can't really control her in HF either, as such. But, the difference in HF is that he can manipulate her into doing what he wants her to do.

Quote:
He was going to sit out the Fourth war too, but Kariya provided him entertainment.
He does sit out the Fourth War. He provides Kariya as a master who has a tiny chance of winning but doesn't endanger him, just like he provides Shinji in Fate and UBW.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And that feels more exciting. Fate/Stay Night knows how to be really good when it wants, I am not saying otherwise, is just that it also takes its sweet time with scenes that, to be fair, really add nothing. Just saying, at times it can get doll. I read those parts but some are unnecessary long and drag my attention away from the great conflict that is taking place. You donít keep the excitement and feeling of this epic war between mages with ancient beings as Servants when you have stuff like: what is for dinner? Is better a Japanese breakfast or an American breakfast? Or, I think the way that guy walks is really cool. I can live without those things.
That's called "characterisation"....

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Is not misunderstanding. Ok, I will admit I am not a fan of VN but I can find good stuff here. My point is that, at times, the things we break in to in the middle of the action bits are pointless and boring. Character development and foreshadowing is good, but there is ways to let that out. Really is odd to go from a serious life or death situation of action and tension just to cut to ďWho will make dinner?Ē and have a comic relief scene over an ancient king being angry at her bad food. Keep the tone or balance a little better the elements. FSN doesnít always get it right.
I think your statement about not liking VNs is very revealing....

That is how the genre works, and I see no problem with it. It is just a way to develop the characters and plot, and those scenes are genuinely important in many cases.

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I know with Saber, but she was British and she says the food wasnít goodÖ is not even a hard connection to make. Is like the Black Ranger being black and the Yellow Ranger being Asian, it just comes on its own.
What?

For one thing, she's ancient British, which has no real connection to the modern world. Also, so what if it's "obvious", that doesn't mean she won't say it.

A good story is not going to only say things for your direct benefit, the characters exist to be characters, not solely to explain the plot to you.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Because the explanation are just a way to give away what, in the end, I canít really put myself behind as story telling detail. I never say it canít be explain, I am saying isnít kind of stellar. And there is no point to say it canít work in a more open story when we already have an example where a Fate series does give more room to all Master/Servant teams. FSN doesnít do it for any reasons they might had and they create something good, just not flawed.
Yes, and the anime is widely slated by FSN fans for doing a horribly botched job of fitting in the Sakura arc. She shows up, her relationship to Rin is revealed and then it is literally just forgotten so they can go back to the original VN ending.

Quote:
The discussion is over if this can affect the routes quality and I think it does. Because you can tell me yeah, Zouken wanted to play bingo during the other routes or he take vacations on Hawaii or was waiting for things to happen on its own, etc. that isnít the point. He didnít appear and might as well seem he was just not in there at all. You canít really go away with the ďlittle hintsĒ if in the end the character was so irrelevant to the previous routes we can pretend he was dead on those. Point being, some characters are kind of waste in other routes. I think it does matter and I canít really just take it, you can. So yes, we agree to disagree there.
The thing is, Zouken doesn't want to be seen. He is someone who would rather the world know as little about him as possible, especially people who would violently object to his method of living and treatment of Sakura.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Pretty sure he was mentioned in both Fate and UBW routes during those slice of life scenes. I believe he called the Emiya estate to have Sakura come home.
Yep, in at least one route he calls to ask Sakura to come home, and I think in the other they call him at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
He should already know how to use Shirou without him going to the house right? Kotomine says the crest worm in Sakura is normally used for reconnaissance, he can see what shes doing and in that first day Sakura sorta flirts with Shirou and Shirou says itll be a problem if Fuji-nee hears her talk like that. Zouken SHOULD know this I think. Also in the Fate route Sakura also sees the mark on Shirou's hand, its bleeding rather than just a bruise and her face pales when she sees that as well. So whats confusing me is that the same events happen albeit a bit differently but should have the same result, if that's the case Zouken had no reason not to act in Fate as well. So I guess it comes down to it in Fate that tiny spark does open for whatever reason since they most definitely had the same conversation. While in HF it does, so its sort of like a what IF scenario then? Is that right? idk its just silly to me that such a tiiiiiny difference means he doesn't act in Fate, he even said himself, he has all the pieces he needs, why would he give up on Sakura after a single conversation. He been waiting 500 years. I guess its just my opinion and im being stubborn lol.
Sakura doesn't "flirt" with Shirou, though, she very deliberately avoids any such thing. She teases him, perhaps, but not in a way that makes it obvious to Zouken that she is in love with him.

Also, it's not clear what exactly the Crest Worm can do. It can monitor Sakura's location, certainly, but I'm not sure Zouken can hear or see things she hears or sees through it. He probably can through the soul worm he has inside her, but only if he's specifically listening.

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Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
Well see your absolutely right on all of that. Here is what gets me though, you said he didn't know he was a participant yet. He already declares Sakura as perfect he just needs to motivate her. Even though Shirou doesn't go to the house in Fate Zouken is still going to try something if Sakura is perfect, why would he quit after a single conversation if shes perfect. Let's say he just lets it go right, at some point in time he is going to figure out Shirou is a master, he says it himself "If the conditions aren't perfect, I should restrict myself to just watching" If he is watching he WILL find out Shirou is a master, he is going to put two and two together. I hate to say it but the guy isn't stupid, the moment he figures it out he is going to try and pull the same crap as in HF.
By that point it's too late, I think. Shinji already has Rider and he's already accepted that Sakura won't fight. He just doesn't have the leverage any more.
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Old 2013-05-27, 17:08   Link #4287
Thryfe
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In HF Zouken already knows she wont fight and also Shinji is about to get Rider shortly after. Sakura doesn't Fight at all during like 90% of the route. Idk im just finding it hard to accept that Zouken gives up so easily in Fate, he talks about how no one knows how painful it is to rot they way he is. Now his experiment turns out perfect and hes got the tools he needs to get what hes been after for hundreds of years, an opportunity like that may never happen again. In HF creating that small opening in Sakura was as simple as mentioning Rin. granted its because he knows about Shirou.

Think about this for a second, WE all could see plain as day that Sakura has feelings for Shirou right from Fate alone. I Think its sorta pushing it to say Zouken wouldn't notice over the course of an entire year. Even if he didn't, consider this for a moment. In Fate Shirou is inside the Matou house when he talks to Shinji, as soon as he finds out Matou is a magi family Shirou asks if Sakura learned magic as well. When Shinji tells him only the heir learns and she doesn't know anything Shirou says I see, thank god then. Right after refusing to join Shinji, Shirou himself tells shinji that he may be persistent and asks about Sakura again. Once Shinji answers him Shirou says "That'll help. I want Sakura to stay like that."
Shinji replies by saying if hes worried about Sakura so much he should thank Shirou as her brother. I mean come on this was in the damn guys house you KNOW Zouken would be listening lmao.

Zouken is such a dang pain in the ass and hes a master manipulator, right there he would of Jumped for joy and used that information. He wouldn't have a reason not to, he would try to mess with Sakura's mind again. From HF we know how the guy is and i'm just finding it very hard to believe that he would overlook such things and not keep trying. No one knows about him so hes not really in any risk, the only Reason that would make sense is if hes dead.

The only way that could happen is if in the Fate route he doesn't have as long as he does in the other Routes and he has Withered away, because I have to admit trying to kill that guy takes way too much effort without Sakura being hurt. Kotomine doing the baptism rite on sakura is a stretch too lol. I don't think its too crazy to think he withered because in HF Kotomine thought he did, and says so in the tofu scene and Zouken tells Illya in the forest that hes reached his limit and needs a permanent body. All the routes are sort of their own separate story and what may be true in one isn't guaranteed in the other. In Fate he may have just run out of time for the convenience of the story and they do a subtle hint through
Kotomine saying hes already retired. That way it wouldn't be some huge plothole like I personally think it is if he is alive, again my opinion. Either way, I realize I am being difficult and stubborn. I apologize if im frustrating anyone and I thank you guys for being so patient with me haha. That said, none of you guys have to reply to my posts anymore if you don't want to :P
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Old 2013-05-27, 19:44   Link #4288
Cherry_Lover
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In HF Zouken already knows she wont fight and also Shinji is about to get Rider shortly after. Sakura doesn't Fight at all during like 90% of the route. Idk im just finding it hard to accept that Zouken gives up so easily in Fate, he talks about how no one knows how painful it is to rot they way he is. Now his experiment turns out perfect and hes got the tools he needs to get what hes been after for hundreds of years, an opportunity like that may never happen again. In HF creating that small opening in Sakura was as simple as mentioning Rin. granted its because he knows about Shirou.
No, Sakura isn't fighting willingly in HF, but what he does manage to do is activate Angra Mainyu inside her, which means she will end up fighting eventually, one way or another.

Quote:
Think about this for a second, WE all could see plain as day that Sakura has feelings for Shirou right from Fate alone. I Think its sorta pushing it to say Zouken wouldn't notice over the course of an entire year. Even if he didn't, consider this for a moment. In Fate Shirou is inside the Matou house when he talks to Shinji, as soon as he finds out Matou is a magi family Shirou asks if Sakura learned magic as well. When Shinji tells him only the heir learns and she doesn't know anything Shirou says I see, thank god then. Right after refusing to join Shinji, Shirou himself tells shinji that he may be persistent and asks about Sakura again. Once Shinji answers him Shirou says "That'll help. I want Sakura to stay like that."
Shinji replies by saying if hes worried about Sakura so much he should thank Shirou as her brother. I mean come on this was in the damn guys house you KNOW Zouken would be listening lmao.
It's not so much that he doesn't know she has feelings for him as he doesn't know that he can use those against her. In particular, he has no idea that Shirou is a master. Sakura won't tell him, and he isn't likely to be out spying on a war he has no interest in.

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Zouken is such a dang pain in the ass and hes a master manipulator, right there he would of Jumped for joy and used that information. He wouldn't have a reason not to, he would try to mess with Sakura's mind again. From HF we know how the guy is and i'm just finding it very hard to believe that he would overlook such things and not keep trying.
The thing is that you're making a false assumption that he's given up. He hasn't, he's just waiting for a better opportunity. Even Sakura still has usefulness outside the war, in that she can provide him with another heir to experiment on.

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No one knows about him so hes not really in any risk, the only Reason that would make sense is if hes dead.
Well, Kotomine knows about him, for a start. And, even if no-one knows about him now, if he gets involved in the Grail War they're likely to find out. And, at least three of the masters have good reason to want to kill him if they find out the full truth (or, in Kotomine's case, just because).

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The only way that could happen is if in the Fate route he doesn't have as long as he does in the other Routes and he has Withered away, because I have to admit trying to kill that guy takes way too much effort without Sakura being hurt.
That doesn't make sense, because all three routes start from the same point. If Zouken died early in Fate he would also die early in HF.

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All the routes are sort of their own separate story and what may be true in one isn't guaranteed in the other.
Nope, all three stories have a common beginning, if something is true in one it's true in the other two.

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Kotomine saying hes already retired. That way it wouldn't be some huge plothole like I personally think it is if he is alive, again my opinion.
It's a bigger plot hole, because it implies that Shirou choosing to walk Sakura home magically extends Zouken's lifespan by several decades....
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Old 2013-06-10, 21:16   Link #4289
Thryfe
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
No, Sakura isn't fighting willingly in HF, but what he does manage to do is activate Angra Mainyu inside her, which means she will end up fighting eventually, one way or another.
I didn't say she fought willingly, That small opening he made wasnt what activated AM. It was the opening he needed to manipulate her with mind games. The activation of AM was when she was "chosen" by Shirou, the person she did not want to lose. All of her bottled up emotions poured out at that point.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
It's not so much that he doesn't know she has feelings for him as he doesn't know that he can use those against her. In particular, he has no idea that Shirou is a master. Sakura won't tell him, and he isn't likely to be out spying on a war he has no interest in.
He absolutely would know if Shirou is a master, Shirou was IN his house talking with Shinji about the war and teaming up. He is going to know whats happening in his own house. His original plan was to observe the war, saying he wont be spying on a war he has no interest in would be wrong. Considering he planned to spy on it not participate.


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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
The thing is that you're making a false assumption that he's given up. He hasn't, he's just waiting for a better opportunity. Even Sakura still has usefulness outside the war, in that she can provide him with another heir to experiment on.
There is no better opportunity. That's why he says himself he should just restrict himself to watching, but acts because Sakura turned out PERFECT all he needed to do was create a small opening, which he does literally a few lines of dialogue later. Why would he pass up the perfect opportunity to stop his excruciating decay that hes been enduring for hundreds of years.


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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, Kotomine knows about him, for a start. And, even if no-one knows about him now, if he gets involved in the Grail War they're likely to find out. And, at least three of the masters have good reason to want to kill him if they find out the full truth (or, in Kotomine's case, just because).
It doesn't matter if they find out about him as we clearly see in HF.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
That doesn't make sense, because all three routes start from the same point. If Zouken died early in Fate he would also die early in HF.
Maybe I didn't explain it right, Nasu said he would Rather have two routes disappear if one were true. We ONLY see Zouken in HF only after we choose the new option to take Sakura home, from that point onward the stories have nothing to do with each other, its like they are parallel universes. looking at one route makes the other two What IF stories. The only thing all 3 have in common is the prologue, and Zouken isn't in that. So if im looking at Fate as the true route(for example) Then Zouken has already withered sometime earlier. Then we ask ourselves the question what if this Zouken guy was still around, we would then get the what if that is HF. This applies to all routes depending on which one we the reader, choose is the main route.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Nope, all three stories have a common beginning, if something is true in one it's true in the other two.
That wouldn't make sense imo, so because Shirou has archers arm in HF it means he somehow has it in Fate also? You said if something is true in one its true in the other two.


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It's a bigger plot hole, because it implies that Shirou choosing to walk Sakura home magically extends Zouken's lifespan by several decades....
You cant look at all 3 routes at the same time otherwise you get a conclusion like that. Nasu says "If all of these became possible at the same time, the other routes would become meaningless." Depending which you decide is the main route makes the remaining two what If stories. In Fate he is withered, if say what if he was alive then we get HF. HF is evidence that if the guy is alive then HF will result. Especially in Fate, Shirou constantly nags Shinji about Sakura inside Zouken's own home. Im sure you can agree that Zouken acts in HF because he has the knowledge of Shirou's connection to Sakura. The scene in the house in Fate proves their connection wayyyy more than Shirou simply walking Sakura home in HF. So Zouken alive in Fate would make the Fate Route impossible because he would act on his "perfect" experiment and the route would turn into HF. Having him alive in Fate is a plothole, so to avoid the plot hole he must be dead.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:41   Link #4290
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Sakura became the grail by very subtle trolling at a certain point in time that Zouken used, its the Butterfly Effect at work, which accidentally opened the gate, and started to taint her, he never expected things to get to that level(of course he was stupid to think that tainting a prototype he specifically made to be incompatible was a good thing is proof he is both lacking in insight and mad). Read the convo he had with Shirou again on day 12 carefully, as well as his talks with Assassin, Sakura, even when tainted unconsciously rejected AM until the end where she broke down, he had to troll quite a bit to get where we were by the end.

Also, Nasu said that if any of the routes are canon, then the other two would be meaningless, because of the parallel worlds issue, one world being the one true canon is impossible. So yes, Zouken can outlive Sakura based on the way he is experimenting on her and the fact that he already has plans to use her children for his goals since Fate/zero, which ties into every route, because it's is the irrefutable past of the main characters and why the story is as we see in FSN. The parallel worlds don't create a plot hole, Rin and Sakura are sisters, their father and mother are always dead, Sakura is always adopted by the Matou family for these iteration of parallel worlds; all of these things remain the same, how they end are the only differences.
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Old 2013-06-12, 17:12   Link #4291
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Sakura became the grail by very subtle trolling at a certain point in time that Zouken used, its the Butterfly Effect at work, which accidentally opened the gate, and started to taint her, he never expected things to get to that level(of course he was stupid to think that tainting a prototype he specifically made to be incompatible was a good thing is proof he is both lacking in insight and mad). Read the convo he had with Shirou again on day 12 carefully, as well as his talks with Assassin, Sakura, even when tainted unconsciously rejected AM until the end where she broke down, he had to troll quite a bit to get where we were by the end.

Also, Nasu said that if any of the routes are canon, then the other two would be meaningless, because of the parallel worlds issue, one world being the one true canon is impossible. So yes, Zouken can outlive Sakura based on the way he is experimenting on her and the fact that he already has plans to use her children for his goals since Fate/zero, which ties into every route, because it's is the irrefutable past of the main characters and why the story is as we see in FSN. The parallel worlds don't create a plot hole, Rin and Sakura are sisters, their father and mother are always dead, Sakura is always adopted by the Matou family for these iteration of parallel worlds; all of these things remain the same, how they end are the only differences.
I don't see how one route being canon is impossible. They all share the same base, its up to the reader to decide which they think is the true route. If you pick one then the other two become impossible obviously. That's why Nasu says "my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true." Also I wasn't saying the Parallel worlds create a plot hole, I was arguing that Zouken would have All the tools he needs in every single route to do what he does in HF. So if he is alive in Fate then HF will inevitably happen which would create a plothole. To avoid HF route from happening he cant be alive in Fate.

His main goal from the very beginning of HF was to utilize his PERFECT experiment. The only thing he didn't expect was that she would turn out perfect like she did, that's what makes him start trolling. Since all the routes share a common origin there is nothing special that happens during those first 3 days that magically turns Sakura from failed experiment to a perfect tool. She has the capability in each route, a lot of people seem to agree that knowledge of Shirou and Sakura caring for each other is the key that drove Zouken to start cattle prodding. Considering that, Fate would be a prime candidate for a HF scenario since there is greater information available revealing the bond those two have if you look at the scene where Shinji tries to get Shirou to join him.

The guy has lived for hundreds of years he isn't going to just prod a few times and quit if his experiment ends up coming out perfectly. His original plan to use her children is irrelevant the moment he finds out how suited Sakura is. When he made that plan it was because she was just a lab rat to him with no future. When that lab rat becomes a masterpiece you can be damn sure your gonna do everything you possibly can to utilize this chance you've been given. Especially after unbearable decay going on for hundreds of years. That's why saying he just sat and watched in Fate is so dang preposterous to me. The perfect opportunity presents itself and he just says nah ill take my chances down the road?

I also don't buy that he has so much more time at his disposal, in HF the route where he is most prominent he tells Illya himself that he is at his limit and needs a permanent body.
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Old 2013-06-12, 17:47   Link #4292
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Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
I don't see how one route being canon is impossible. They all share the same base, its up to the reader to decide which they think is the true route. If you pick one then the other two become impossible obviously. That's why Nasu says "my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true." Also I wasn't saying the Parallel worlds create a plot hole, I was arguing that Zouken would have All the tools he needs in every single route to do what he does in HF. So if he is alive in Fate then HF will inevitably happen which would create a plothole. To avoid HF route from happening he cant be alive in Fate.
Why does one route have to be canon? All the route can exist at the same time, like in the multiverse theory. The routes are just parallel dimensions from each other. Fate or UBW route could for example have been one of the dimension from which Rin took prana with the "Jeweled Sword of Zelretch" in her fight against Sakura.
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Old 2013-06-12, 22:07   Link #4293
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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Why does one route have to be canon? All the route can exist at the same time, like in the multiverse theory. The routes are just parallel dimensions from each other. Fate or UBW route could for example have been one of the dimension from which Rin took prana with the "Jeweled Sword of Zelretch" in her fight against Sakura.
Im not saying one route has to be canon, im just using that as an example. As in if I lived in Fate Route then that would be the "canon" route to me because im in it. Like there may be many parallel earths yet because we live on this one we would assume ours is the true earth. I only use the Canon thing as an example to explain why in my opinion I don't think Zouken can be alive in the fate route. I know all of the routes can exist, there is no special coveted child of the routes haha
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Old 2013-06-18, 11:51   Link #4294
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Originally Posted by Thryfe View Post
I don't see how one route being canon is impossible. They all share the same base, its up to the reader to decide which they think is the true route. If you pick one then the other two become impossible obviously. That's why Nasu says "my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true." Also I wasn't saying the Parallel worlds create a plot hole, I was arguing that Zouken would have All the tools he needs in every single route to do what he does in HF. So if he is alive in Fate then HF will inevitably happen which would create a plothole. To avoid HF route from happening he cant be alive in Fate.

His main goal from the very beginning of HF was to utilize his PERFECT experiment. The only thing he didn't expect was that she would turn out perfect like she did, that's what makes him start trolling. Since all the routes share a common origin there is nothing special that happens during those first 3 days that magically turns Sakura from failed experiment to a perfect tool. She has the capability in each route, a lot of people seem to agree that knowledge of Shirou and Sakura caring for each other is the key that drove Zouken to start cattle prodding. Considering that, Fate would be a prime candidate for a HF scenario since there is greater information available revealing the bond those two have if you look at the scene where Shinji tries to get Shirou to join him.

The guy has lived for hundreds of years he isn't going to just prod a few times and quit if his experiment ends up coming out perfectly. His original plan to use her children is irrelevant the moment he finds out how suited Sakura is. When he made that plan it was because she was just a lab rat to him with no future. When that lab rat becomes a masterpiece you can be damn sure your gonna do everything you possibly can to utilize this chance you've been given. Especially after unbearable decay going on for hundreds of years. That's why saying he just sat and watched in Fate is so dang preposterous to me. The perfect opportunity presents itself and he just says nah ill take my chances down the road?

I also don't buy that he has so much more time at his disposal, in HF the route where he is most prominent he tells Illya himself that he is at his limit and needs a permanent body.
First, Nasu himself has said that there is no one canon route, even going along with saying, "if one route were true I would rather the other two be gone". Be him saying that he would rather the other two routes not exist, he, as the author, is stamping that there is no canon route. Period. The parallel worlds theory also supports that.

Next, Sakura wasn't used because there was no connection to AM, and she usually gives Rider to Shinji and moves on, rather than het conversation with Zouken that she had in HF. And Zouken didn't know how to make that connection, because Sakura took poisoning, abuse, experimentation, and a lot of other things and endured them, but he needed her to be mentally unstable to take her role as the Grail. Even during the route itself, he told Assassin that she was essentially unconsciously keeping AM in check while she was conscious, without being aware of it, and that was when he took the trolling to the next level. Unfortunately for him, it wasn't something he could control as well as he thought, see how he always stays out of the way when the Shadow appears.

All that to say is that Sakura's emotional state caused the gate to accidently open, and for the connection to AM to manifest. Essentially, it was all an accident set up by her tense emotional state that even he didn't plan on, but to him seemed fortuitous, then he capitalized on it. His original plans were to use her children, but she was supposed to be a failed prototype he admits he slapped together by copying the Einzberns, meaning he didn't really know what he was doing. When he saw the potential in Avenger he planned to let her mind die by absorbing too many souls and then he would eat her brain, take her body, and manifest his wishes. That was the entirety of his thought process.

Lastly, he had at least fifty more years by his calculations, and while the time between when he needed to change bodies was getting shorter, that doesn't mean his calculations on his time limit were wrong, and even then, its because the bodies he uses are normal people.
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Old 2013-06-18, 13:13   Link #4295
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Unfortunately for him, it wasn't something he could control as well as he thought, see how he always stays out of the way when the Shadow appears.
That's not entirely true. Whilst he does keep his distance from the shadow, he is also quite obviously capable of controlling it to at least some extent. For example, he is able to make it attack Shirou if his Sakura points aren't high enough, which is not something that would ever happen if it was solely working through Sakura's subconscious.

Personally, I think he can control it by talking to Sakura on a subconscious level. Since he's inside her, that shouldn't be too difficult.

Quote:
All that to say is that Sakura's emotional state caused the gate to accidently open, and for the connection to AM to manifest. Essentially, it was all an accident set up by her tense emotional state that even he didn't plan on, but to him seemed fortuitous, then he capitalized on it.
Yeah, it is clear he doesn't expect the shadow, from the way he first reacts to it.

Quote:
Lastly, he had at least fifty more years by his calculations, and while the time between when he needed to change bodies was getting shorter, that doesn't mean his calculations on his time limit were wrong, and even then, its because the bodies he uses are normal people.
I think it's pretty clear he has quite a bit more than 50 years, honestly. Otherwise he'd have been a lot more urgent about things.
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Old 2013-06-18, 13:38   Link #4296
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Does Rider still drink blood after Heaven's Feel? And Rin is fine with it?
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Old 2013-06-18, 13:51   Link #4297
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Does Rider still drink blood after Heaven's Feel? And Rin is fine with it?
I don't know if I remember it correctly, but from what I remember she doesn't need to drink blood anymore because Sakura is supplying her with enough prana through the surplus of her own prana because of her grail connection or something.

But I think Rider only needed to drink blood because Shinji was a crappy magus and couldn't give her the prana she needed to sustain herself. When in Heaven's Feel Sakura is her master I don't think she still had that problem.
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Old 2013-06-18, 13:57   Link #4298
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Does Rider still drink blood after Heaven's Feel? And Rin is fine with it?
Yeah, on both counts. She says as much in HF True.

Sakura doesn't know, though, and would likely stop her if she did.

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I don't know if I remember it correctly, but from what I remember she doesn't need to drink blood anymore because Sakura is supplying her with enough prana through the surplus of her own prana because of her grail connection or something.

But I think Rider only needed to drink blood because Shinji was a crappy magus and couldn't give her the prana she needed to sustain herself. When in Heaven's Feel Sakura is her master I don't think she still had that problem.
I don't think she needs to do it, but she does so anyway, presumably because she enjoys it. I am pretty sure that she does so non-fatally, though, because there's no way Rin would stand for her killing people.
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Old 2013-06-18, 13:59   Link #4299
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yeah, on both counts. She says as much in HF True.

Sakura doesn't know, though, and would likely stop her if she did.



I don't think she needs to do it, but she does so anyway, presumably because she enjoys it. I am pretty sure that she does so non-fatally, though, because there's no way Rin would stand for her killing people.
Goes after both men and women... probably.
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Old 2013-06-18, 14:03   Link #4300
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Goes after both men and women... probably.
It's never specified, but if anything I'd suspect she'd go mainly for women. Rider always came across to me as being mostly lesbian, aside from Shirou.
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