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Old 2013-04-02, 05:00   Link #61
Tusjecht
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I figure that too. The level difference should mean Taku and Haru, using their initial special skill, should be having a very skewed fight in Taku's favour. Flight notwithstanding, Taku realistically only needs two solid hits to kill Crow.

...in fact, given that Crow took damage by losing his arm, being hit by Splash Stinger, and then being slammed into the wall immediately after, I find it inconceivable that Crow is still breathing after SGD.
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Old 2013-04-02, 05:56   Link #62
Sunder the Gold
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Haruyuki initially believed that the difference in strength between him and Pile might have a significant basis in the difference of their levels, but by the time Lime Bell enters the game, he knows that leveling up provides only modest improvements to basic stats.

It was one part of the explanation for why Level 1 Lime Bell could whallop his Level 4 avatar so badly with only a few hits. (The other parts being his lightweight build, his vulnerability to bashing, and just standing there without dodging or blocking to mitigate damage.)

Cyan Pile is so much greater than Silver Crow in some regards because that's where his potential was invested. Instead of flight: enormous strength, powerful weapon and hard armor.

Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2013-04-02 at 06:10.
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Old 2013-04-02, 07:52   Link #63
Tusjecht
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It still doesn't change much; the author basically handed Haru One Final Chance to fight, and of course Flight ability just had to appear.
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Old 2013-04-02, 10:01   Link #64
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For all we know, 1-HP Final Chance may be a regular feature of the game for Level 1 avatars who fight higher level opponents. A grace the creator extended to newbies.

Didn't apply against Ash Roller in the first fight, wasn't needed in the second.
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Old 2013-04-04, 14:38   Link #65
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Okay, so my opinions on each of Cyan Pile's abilities have improved since the first page of this thread.

Spiral Gravity Driver is likely his Level 1 special attack, and is likely more impressive than its one appearance made it seem.

Splash Stinger is explicitly his Level 2 choice, whether it's a normal or special attack. There's never been any argument -- it's a great attack which greatly improves Cyan Pile's versatility.

Lightning Cyan Spike is his Level 4 special attack, offering benefits that Spiral Gravity Driver doesn't while not doing everything that SGD can do.

His level 3 choice is still unknown. No one's mentioned any additional special attack that turns up in later Light Novel volumes, so I assume that he's not hiding one away. That suggests that he spent his bonus on upgrading something he already had. Alternatively, he bought Lightning Cyan Spike at Level 3 and upgraded it with his level 4 choice.


Graphite Edge's advice is that a Burst Linker should focus all of their bonuses into the central focus of their avatar. For Sky Raker, it was the Gale Thruster. Black Lotus = sword limbs, Silver Crow = wings, Lime Bell = Choir Chime... Cyan Pile, Pile Driver.

In following this advice, Black Lotus gained Death By Piercing, a special attack that is basically "sword limb, but MORE". The Lightning Cyan Spike must be the same.

We don't know what special attack Black Lotus started with, but because of Silver Crow we know that first special attacks don't always have ANYTHING to do with the avatar's central focus. If Spiral Gravity Driver is really Cyan Pile's first special attack, it has more to do with his central point than Headbutt does.

Aside from Pile's unknown Level 3 choice, the only choice which can be considered "generalizing" rather than specializing would be Splash Stinger.

It was a bonus that does nothing to upgrade the Pile Driver; rather, it is a choice that rejects the utter reliance on the Pile Driver by adding a completely independent ability.

If Haruyuki had the option of a Double Jump bonus, choosing that upgrade would have been similar to Splash Stinger; a rejection of utter reliance on Silver Crow's wings. A back-up and alternative, just in case his wings became damaged or he wanted to conserve his SP.

Now, don't get me wrong: Splash Stinger IS a great attack. But so would have been the Rapid Knuckle or Radial Shot that Haruyuki could have chosen for Silver Crow.

Takumu could have chosen to upgrade his Pile Driver instead; perhaps reducing the cool-down, or perhaps gaining a rapid-fire special attack (just as Black Lotus gained Death By Barraging).
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Old 2013-04-06, 03:59   Link #66
Tusjecht
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I'm not so sure about SGD myself to begin with.

Pile Drivers in general work by dropping a weight downwards, literally driving piles into the ground. Cyan Pile's pile driver in contrast is more like piercing with a stake.

In this respect we won't really know if the author understood 'pile' completely, but if that is the case, then SGD could be the initial starting move. And yet it seems to be CP's special focus when other avatars appear to have initial special moves of a different attribute.

Lime Bell could turn time from Level 1. Does that mean that some avatars have same-attribute initial special attacks, and some don't?
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Old 2013-04-06, 06:50   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tusjecht View Post
Lime Bell could turn time from Level 1. Does that mean that some avatars have same-attribute initial special attacks, and some don't?
It must.

Takumu's fear and wish manifested as a pile-driver; a weapon simple enough to be his basic attack without being too powerful. Rather than SP, its shooting attack is limited by a cool-down timer.

Haruyuki's wish was to fly; it would be no good as a special attack, yet it couldn't be unlimited, so it's a "Limited Activation" ability.

Fuuko's wish for legs that worked gave her a Blue avatar with strong legs, and her wish to visit space gave her an Enhanced Armament jetpack which, unlike Crow's Aviation, runs on a battery independent of the special gauge (and unlike Pile's driver, has a recharge time of 10 minutes).

Chiyuri's wish to turn back time could only have manifested as a special attack, because of how powerful that would be.

According to my theory, Pard's desire for foot-speed was so great that a Blue strong-leg avatar like Sky Raker wasn't enough; the system had to give her legs even stronger than that, but limited them with a shapeshifting requirement and a slower default form.

Not all wishes are equal, but all of them get equally supported by Duel Avatars. A simple wish is backed up by various other abilities, such as how Cyan Pile gets Spiral Gravity Driver to create distance.

Similarly, a complex wish gets support, such as how Lime Bell is built strong and tough to build up SP through dishing out and soaking up hits, allowing her to use Citron Call more frequently.
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Old 2013-04-06, 07:18   Link #68
Masuzu
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I thought flight required you to eat up SP.

Otherwise, what was the point of Silver Crow telling them he needed to fill his gauge first before flying to Cherry Rook?

Maybe there was an instance where we see him flying at the very start of a duel, but I just don't remember any.
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Old 2013-04-06, 07:45   Link #69
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasumi View Post
I thought flight required you to eat up SP.
It does. That's what a "Limited Activation" ability does; the Vertical Climb feature of Ash Roller's Night Rocker bike is the same; it steadily consumes a small amount of SP for a sustained effect, rather than instantly consuming a large amount of SP for a brief effect.


Quote:
Maybe there was an instance where we see him flying at the very start of a duel, but I just don't remember any.
It seems to happen in his fight with Scarlet Rain, but the vernier burst actually DID do a little damage to him; enough to give him some flight time, thanks to his upgrade choices. And then she shot his arm off, which drove his SP up a lot.
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Old 2013-04-06, 14:08   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Not all wishes are equal, but all of them get equally supported by Duel Avatars. A simple wish is backed up by various other abilities, such as how Cyan Pile gets Spiral Gravity Driver to create distance.

Similarly, a complex wish gets support, such as how Lime Bell is built strong and tough to build up SP through dishing out and soaking up hits, allowing her to use Citron Call more frequently.
To make this simpler:

Some Duel Avatars manifest the player's wish as a normal attack, some as a special attack, and others as something inbetween.

Takumu got the Pile Driver weapon, Chiyuri got the Citron Call special "attack", and Haruyuki got the Aviation ability.

To supplement the Pile Driver, Cyan Pile got a Blue body and the Spiral Gravity Driver. To supplement Citron Call, Lime Bell got a Green body, and the Choir Chime doubles as a club. To supplement Aviation, Silver Crow got a lightweight body, and punch and kick attacks to use in conjunction with Flight.
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Old 2013-04-06, 22:39   Link #71
Masuzu
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It's all game balancing, Brain Burst is usually fair.
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Old 2013-06-17, 10:55   Link #72
judasmartel
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Say, suppose Taku gets a level reset, how do you think should he use his level-up bonuses?

Splash Stinger is a must, given how useful it is especially when he's stuck in a corner.

I read a lot of comments like Taku should build Cyan Pile around his Pile Bunker, and I think it's because he has the Cyan Blade against IS attacks anyway.

I've also read comments that Taku should add spikes on his Pile Bunker so he can still hook his enemies even when he can't hit them at the tip.

I would find it cool if Pile would be able to launch LCS in mid-air (since he can launch his normal pile bunker attacks in mid-air already, as shown in the second OVA), downwards or otherwise.
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Old 2013-06-17, 12:30   Link #73
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Do players get to literally choose anything? I thought each level up gave a list of like 6-8 things and you just chose one, like some sort of branching system?
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Old 2013-06-17, 12:44   Link #74
judasmartel
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I think it's based on their avatars. I mean, look at Silver Crow. He can select Radial Shot or some other skill that is only usable by him, but he didn't.
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Old 2013-06-17, 20:45   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Do players get to literally choose anything? I thought each level up gave a list of like 6-8 things and you just chose one, like some sort of branching system?

Four options of two new special techniques, one new ability, and one fortification of the existing abilities.
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Old 2013-06-21, 18:22   Link #76
Sunder the Gold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
Say, suppose Taku gets a level reset, how do you think should he use his level-up bonuses?

Splash Stinger is a must, given how useful it is especially when he's stuck in a corner.
It's definitely a very handy attack, but then we have to assume that ALL options are equally powerful. Otherwise, they wouldn't truly be options, but traps.

Looking at Silver Crow's known Level 2 options, none of them are any more attractive than any other... except in one possible regard.

Rapid Knuckle, Radial Shot and Thicker Armor would all shore up areas of Silver Crow's weakness. Namely, his light-weight armor, his lack of muscle-mass and easily-executed close-range Specials, and the absence of any ranged attack.

Only one option served to make him MORE specialized in the balance: Improving his greatest strength at the cost of balancing out his weaknesses. Forsaking versatility.


Anyway, consider that Splash Stinger's greatest advantage is the versatility it brings Cyan Pile, by allowing him a second ranged attack that isn't dependent on the Pile Driver's cool-down time or on his Special Gauge. Also, it offers versatility in being a wide-area attack rather than a death-or-glory pin-point shot.

It's definitely not an upgrade to Cyan Pile's greatest strength: The Pile Driver.

Imagine what an upgrade to the Pile Driver would have offered. Something as valuable as Silver Crow reducing the cost of his Aviation ability, allowing him to take to the skies sooner in a fight, and remain there longer, while also allowing more uses of his aerial diving attacks.

Upgrading the Pile Driver might have increased its damage or range, or reduced the cool-down time between shots, or allowed a rapid-fire attack which allows a number of shots before imposing the cool-down.

I choose to believe that Lightning Cyan Spike WAS a choice that focused on the Pile Driver specialty, since it's basically just a super-version of what the Pile Driver already does.


Quote:
I would find it cool if Pile would be able to launch LCS in mid-air (since he can launch his normal pile bunker attacks in mid-air already, as shown in the second OVA), downwards or otherwise.
Well, it's possible that he can already do that. Why wouldn't it be possible?


Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Do players get to literally choose anything? I thought each level up gave a list of like 6-8 things and you just chose one, like some sort of branching system?
If translations are accurate, Kuroyukihime believes that she was given the option of one of her abilities specifically because she had already invested so many choices in that particular ability, but she can't say for sure. (Again, if the translation and second-hand information is accurate.)

There might be a branching system, and there might not be.

Something else we don't know: Options you didn't choose at Level 2 might not become available again at Level 3, or might remain available all the way to Level 9. It's a mystery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post
I think it's based on their avatars. I mean, look at Silver Crow. He can select Radial Shot or some other skill that is only usable by him, but he didn't.
I wouldn't assume that no other Avatar could have had the Radial Shot attack.

It's basically would have been just a forearm-mounted crossbow, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
Four options of two new special techniques, one new ability, and one fortification of the existing abilities.
But that was for Silver Crow after advancing to Level 2. We can't be sure it was the same for anyone else, or even for himself upon advancing to Level 3 or so.
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Old 2013-06-22, 11:45   Link #77
Tusjecht
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Actually...in Radio's ambush, Pile fired LCS onto Sax Lauder while impaled and strung up mid air.
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Old 2013-06-22, 11:50   Link #78
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Tusjecht View Post
Actually...in Radio's ambush, Pile fired LCS onto Sax Lauder while impaled and strung up mid air.
AND he shot through his own stomach to do it.

Because Taku's a fucking badass.
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Old 2013-06-23, 03:43   Link #79
Shiyumi
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Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post

But that was for Silver Crow after advancing to Level 2. We can't be sure it was the same for anyone else, or even for himself upon advancing to Level 3 or so.
From what has been translated so far I think it safe to assume Level up bonus always consist 3 types of choice: special technique, new ability and fortification of the existing abilities.
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Old 2013-06-23, 08:26   Link #80
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Shiyumi View Post
From what has been translated so far I think it safe to assume Level up bonus always consist 3 types of choice: special technique, new ability and fortification of the existing abilities.
With all three presumably applying to Enhanced Armaments as well. "Get one", "improve one", "add a Special Attack to one".

No telling what Takumu spent his Level 3 bonus on, but his Lightning Cyan Spike is labeled a "Level 4 skill".


But I wasn't talking about the TYPES of upgrade. I was talking about the distribution.

It might be possible for one avatar to offer nothing but new Enhanced Armaments upon level-up, and for another avatar to offer nothing but the improvement of existing abilities. Or at least to offer more of one than the other.

We can only assume that each avatar offers exactly four choices at Level 2. We don't know if each Level Up offers more choices than before, or less.

Silver Crow's upgrades can be seen in a light of four different sorts of categories: Close-Range Combat (Rapid Knuckle), Long-Range Combat (Radial Shot), Defense (Thicker Armor) and Mobility (Cheaper Flight).

Ash Roller had a choice of Wall-Climbing (Mobility), Missiles (Long-Range), and Speed-Up (Mobility again). He might have had a fourth choice he didn't see fit to mention, or he might not.

He apparently didn't lose the opportunity to choose Missiles, since he gets that by Level 4.

Which raises the idea that the "level" of a skill (such as the Level 4 Lightning Cyan Spike) doesn't necessarily hint at the power or utility of the skill. Not if one could have gotten it earlier.
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