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Old 2013-06-16, 06:23   Link #21
Lulu Vie Britania
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Edit: This discussion was originally started in the Episode 10 thread, and split-off to its own topic. Please keep all future event spoilers out of the thread.

---



I mean he was going to the cafe after killing the sister back in episode 5... He obviously has money to be able to buy food... It's not like he just randomly mugs people for their money, at least I don't think so
It is ridiculous to think that he really cares about their money. As we can see, he participated in many projects, but all the money had simply been thrown into his bank account without being used. He doesn't buy too much but coffee and some food. He really doesn't care about money.
It seems Mikoto needs money and enjoys it more than him, she really doesn't refuse to herself anything
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Old 2013-06-16, 09:09   Link #22
Sackett
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
One last thing to make this clear:

Three points.

Mikoto doesn't like her sisters dying because she doesn't want to imagine herself dying when she sees them die.

Mikoto also feels embarrassed when the Misaka Clone from an earlier episode shows her panties, because the clone looks exactly like her, which makes her feel embarrassed.

Worst of all, Mikoto treats the first clone she meets as a "mirror" and puts the Gekota toy on her in order to see how it looks on her. This is dehumanizing. If you are twins, you might put something on someone else to see how it looks on you, but it's downright rude to put a plushie/Gekota thing on someone else to see how it looks on you without even asking for permission. In my opinion, this demonstrates that Mikoto doesn't see her clones as people.

One last concluding point:

Prior to the end of episode 5, Mikoto saw her clones as people. After episode 6, Mikoto didn't think of her clones as people because they called themselves lab-rats. Because of this I think her actions are somewhat selfish right now.

As long as she is acting selfishly, it doesn't matter whether she's doing something good or something bad, she's doing it for the wrong reason and is only acting in her own interests.

That isn't a very redeeming trait.

What a load of crap.

Just because Mikoto is a tsundere who isn't honest about her feelings doesn't make her a selfish person who thinks her clones aren't people. It's clear from her internal monologue that she finds the death of her clones distressing because they are people who have intrinsic value. Hence her reference to them as "those girls" and not as "clones", and her plea to them to think of how they have their whole lives ahead of them.

Everything about Mikoto is presented in a way that makes it obvious that Mikoto sees the clones as real people, but that she doesn't want to admit it openly because it has implications that she's not ready to deal with yet. Specifically, what are they to her? Are they really her sisters? That's some heavy stuff, and Mikoto has always dealt with such things (ie her feelings for Touma) before by making excuses to justify her actions and concealing her true affections.

Finally, you simply do not risk your life, and continue to do so despite being outnumbered out gunned, and out prepared for a "selfish" reason such as not wanting a "thing" that looks like you to be killed. The only reasonable justification for Mikoto's actions is altruism. She values the lives of her clones so highly that she is willing to risk death in order to save even just one by ending the experiment that much quicker.
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Old 2013-06-16, 09:42   Link #23
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Three points.

Mikoto doesn't like her sisters dying because she doesn't want to imagine herself dying when she sees them die.
This is a huge assumption, based on what she told Shinobu, but on nothing else.

If it was true, the easiest way is just to pretend it's not happening. She could just go on with her life and let Accelerator kill the rest. Once he finishes it will be over.

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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Mikoto also feels embarrassed when the Misaka Clone from an earlier episode shows her panties, because the clone looks exactly like her, which makes her feel embarrassed.
Well, sure. Imagine a doppleganger streaking out while looking like you (It's unreal but humor me), Wouldn't you feel embarrassed?

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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Worst of all, Mikoto treats the first clone she meets as a "mirror" and puts the Gekota toy on her in order to see how it looks on her. This is dehumanizing. If you are twins, you might put something on someone else to see how it looks on you, but it's downright rude to put a plushie/Gekota thing on someone else to see how it looks on you without even asking for permission. In my opinion, this demonstrates that Mikoto doesn't see her clones as people.
Rude? definitely. But how does that translates as dehumanizing? It's like saying that someone who cuts into a line does it cause he doesn't consider human the people behind him... And imo, that's a lot worse than using someone as mirror.

Also, if the clone was just a "mirror" at that point, why let her keep the Gekota? she could have easily overpower it with her esper ability.

Furthermore, this contradicts what you put next about her stopping to consider them people when they called themselves lab-rats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dniv View Post
One last concluding point:

Prior to the end of episode 5, Mikoto saw her clones as people. After episode 6, Mikoto didn't think of her clones as people because they called themselves lab-rats. Because of this I think her actions are somewhat selfish right now.
Only because you're forcing her actions to fit what she told Shinobu.

They don't really fit, you have to twist beyond common sense to do it.



... Darn... I just realized you're trolling.

... F this, I'm done.
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Old 2013-06-16, 10:07   Link #24
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Ugh, Mikoto's main reason for wanting the project ended was not because she didn't likethe idea of someone with her face dying. She wanted it ended because the clones were still humans and they didn't deserve a life where they're born to be murdered viciously for some experiment that was created through deceit when she was a child. Meeting that first clone and bonding with her and learning that she's her own person really affected her and was a huge motivation to try and stop the project even when the clones are fine with their current situation.
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Old 2013-06-16, 10:17   Link #25
dniv
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Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
This is a huge assumption, based on what she told Shinobu, but on nothing else.

If it was true, the easiest way is just to pretend it's not happening. She could just go on with her life and let Accelerator kill the rest. Once he finishes it will be over.



Well, sure. Imagine a doppleganger streaking out while looking like you (It's unreal but humor me), Wouldn't you feel embarrassed?



Rude? definitely. But how does that translates as dehumanizing? It's like saying that someone who cuts into a line does it cause he doesn't consider human the people behind him... And imo, that's a lot worse than using someone as mirror.

Also, if the clone was just a "mirror" at that point, why let her keep the Gekota? she could have easily overpower it with her esper ability.

Furthermore, this contradicts what you put next about her stopping to consider them people when they called themselves lab-rats.



Only because you're forcing her actions to fit what she told Shinobu.

They don't really fit, you have to twist beyond common sense to do it.



... Darn... I just realized you're trolling.

... F this, I'm done.


Sorry... I fell asleep last night around 12:00 ish............................................. on my bed with my laptop.... lololol...................................... (2:00 a.m. animesuki time)

I'm not trolling............ Morality isn't trolling.......................................... .................................................. .......................................

2 things to start off: Mikoto lost her "compassion" for the sisters when they called themselves lab rats in episode 6. She started to consider he sister as a clone in episode 5, but lost that emotion later right when she almost thought of her as a sister. She almost thought it, but didn't quite think it in episode 5... It was a nice touch, but she wasn't there yet.

She didn't attack her sister because she realizes it has feelings, she doesn't think it's inanimate... duh.... it's not black and white... either you're a human or you're a monster... you can be in between... that's how Mikoto sees her clones. She's not the type of person to hurt other "good" people. She is kind, you know... she isn't a cold-hearted killer. She didn't want the kitten to die either. We know she protects animals. Technically humans are animals... at that point she considered clones on a lower scale but still at least being that of animals... we know that she respects most other forms of life, especially sentient, cute life (cats). You're not either a hero or a killer that indiscriminately attacks people. Have you ever heard of the concept "50 shades of gray" (I'm sorry I just mentally scarred you" but that's the idea I'm referencing.)

Cutting a line is selfish and as you said it's ignoring other people waiting. The difference is you caring about yourself more than the other people in line. If you did it for example out of racism or something like that, it's a very bad thing. Mikoto looking to see how the Gekota looked was strange/bad because she was objectifying her clone, seeing as more than a simple animal, but less than a human. At the end of that episode, Mikoto gave away that frog because she realized her clone showed some human qualities. That was the point at which she almost called her, her sister. That all changed of course after episode 6 after she met more of her sisters and heard them call themselves cheap lab rats that could be made at the push of a button. If clones are easily reproduceable then that certainly devalues their uniqueness/ importance/ individuality... I still don't see why you think I'm trolling other than the fact that I fell asleep.

Wait, let me explain why I said it.

Mikoto is my second favorite character in Index... so don't think I'm hating on her. I'm not saying she always is cold-hearted. In fact, I'm saying that she is very strong for someone in her position. I'm just saying she isn't perfect.

When you see someone that looks like you die... it's somewhat painful. Sure... maybe you can argue away that the Gekota on the sister thing was cute and not dehumanizing and maybe you can argue that Mikoto is hiding her true feelings... but I don't buy it for one reason. Here's the definite "proof" I found that made me conclude that this opinion of mine is likely. (By the way, isn't it implicitly true that anything anyone says is an opinion... any conclusions they make, or the facts that they believe in are influence by their basic assumptions. I don't believe in most general "truths"... you can usually interpret them differently. So please understand that everything I say is an opinion implicitly... let's say mathematicians tend to see logic differently from other people...)

Here are my real reasons for saying this. Take it or leave it:

Spoiler for episode 14 or 15 of Railgun s (hasn't aired yet); this is in the manga; don't spoil yourself if you haven't already read this:

I don't think she's a hero at this point in the anime in terms of season 2. I just think she's doing the right thing. Those things are different...

Last edited by dniv; 2013-06-16 at 10:54.
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Old 2013-06-16, 11:36   Link #26
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I believe your reasoning to be true Dniv... but only up to the end of episode 5. The only examples you provide are the pantsu showing and the Gekota, which only take place before Mikoto discovers that the clones are participating in a mass-killing experiment and before she decides to stop it.

As I see it, Mikoto goes trough three different states of mind in regard of her clones.

Mikoto is at first clearly presented as feeling threaten by the possibility of the clones existence. She would feel betray by the scientists she gave her DNA to, and in the flashback at the beginning of episode 6, she explains without any shame that if a clone of her were to appear, the only thing she would want from her is to disappear from her sight.

But then, she meets one of the clones, #9982, and immediately ask her for answers, without taking her sensibility into consideration. Mikoto is here not so different from the scientist, as #9982 is only a mean to an end. Your two examples are relevant here Dniv, and there is also the scene where Mikoto refuses to consider #9982 as her twin, while people around her are making this assumption. Mikoto clearly as difficulties seeing #9982 as a human being.

And finally, Mikoto finds out the truth, and the beginning of episode 6 clearly shows us the rupture in Mikoto state of mind. The episode starts with the flashback where Mikoto says that she would want her clone to disappear from her sight, and suddenly we are back to the present where #9982 is crushed under a wagon by Accelerator. In violent way, this is exactly what Mikoto wished for, but then she suddenly charges him while screaming her rage. This is moment Mikoto starts to see the clones as humans, by seeing another person treating them in the most inhumanly way possible. And at the end of the fight, she asks the others Sisters why they are sacrificing their lives to this messed-up experiment.

In my opinion, one of the big reasons that makes the Railgun Sisters Arc the best thing in the Raildex franchise is that it presents actual character development for Mikoto. She evolves from the start to the end of the arc.

I also believe her to be presented in a heroic fashion. She makes mistakes at first, but it only makes it stronger when her conscience kicks back and she fights so hard to save the lives of as many Sisters as she can, while she could ignore it and lives her perfect everyday life. And the fact that her despair is so deep that she has to lie to herself in order to continue going only add to her heroic qualities.

Last edited by Suryce; 2013-06-16 at 11:49.
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Old 2013-06-16, 11:53   Link #27
leukrota
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Snip
Ok, that's more sensible. Though I still disagree that she lost her emotions when they called themselves lab rats.

Allow me to proceed with the real reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Here are my real reasons for saying this. Take it or leave it:

Spoiler for episode 14 or 15 of Railgun s (hasn't aired yet); this is in the manga; don't spoil yourself if you haven't already read this:

I don't think she's a hero at this point in the anime in terms of season 2. I just think she's doing the right thing. Those things are different...
Spoiler for manga discussion:
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Old 2013-06-16, 11:55   Link #28
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Nah, dniv isn't trolling he just expressed Mikoto is a person who shows her shelfishness trough her denial in some situations like the current experiment, not that she is shelfish on a wide sense but for particular reasons.
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Old 2013-06-16, 12:24   Link #29
Lulu Vie Britania
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I agree with dniv on many points. Mikoto is, of course, not entirely selfish person has a lot of good qualities, but let's talk about her behavior at this time. She showed the quality of selfishness and fear for herself, but of course, it can be understood. No one blames her here, there's no need to blame. Dniv's right. And of course, no one of us knows how he/she would act in her situation.
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Old 2013-06-16, 13:50   Link #30
maplehurry
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let's say mathematicians tend to see logic differently from other people...
there are also different "kinds" of mathematicians, there are pure mathematicians, and there are mathematicians who are also knowledgeable about many other things and may see things differently. Even among the "purists", they may see things differently...

well, I think you already know this. I just elaborate on this a bit in case some people may get the impression prematurely that mathematicians "are all alike".

Last edited by maplehurry; 2013-06-16 at 14:28.
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Old 2013-06-16, 14:23   Link #31
dniv
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Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
there are also different "kinds" of mathematicians, there are pure mathematicians, and there are mathematicians who are also knowledgeable about many other things and may see things differently. Even among the purists, they may see things differently...
I know... I know... that's really off topic though. I said it as a joke. I'm an aspiring pure mathematician. Of course there are applied mathematicians xD Yeah, I hope that made my point a little more clear.

Mikoto is my second favorite Raildex character... so don't think I'm criticizing her that much
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Old 2013-06-23, 01:29   Link #32
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As you read this, I urge you to keep in mind that this isn't about morality per-say it is about her sanity. So... I think this goes here because it's about how she is acting now.

Anyway, I would like to point out that we only have 3 recurring good guys (literally) in all of Railgun... Touma, the doctor who helped Misaka in season 1, and Konori's boyfriend. Every other guy was either: a gangster (we saw this multiple times), an evil scientist (Gensei), the head of a dark research project ( Kites Knockraven), a financial person in a project (Amai Ao, this episode), a henchman for a villain (yellow marble, green marble, and the other power suits), Accelerator who has been an evil jerk as well.... chewing finger(s) (maybe)..., and the guy from the experiment this episode that talked to Accelerator to convince him to join it, ..and who knows who or what else.

Has anyone else noticed that there are so few "good guys" in all of railgun? It's been freaking me out actually. I almost feel like railgun is being sexist even though I know that hopefully isn't true............................. I would say that Railgun is happening in the school garden... but it isn't 50% of the time... I dunno... it slightly bothers me... As far as railgun is concerned, the only "decent" guy in all of Academy City that is a teenager is Touma Kamijou.

In this episode Mikoto acted more girly than normal at the vending machine. She's usually moe, but she was actually acting girly IMO when she was laughing at the $20 lost by Touma. (This might have been because she thought she had stopped the experiment though as well). I am pointing out though that Saten teased Mikoto about her boyfriend many times in Railgun S and everything that's been mentioned/referenced at least 3 times has happened... or had something of the sort happen. (This episode might be it though).

I understand some people don't want that much Touma... but... if he cheers Mikoto up and makes her smile, don't begrudge her of that. Anyway...

With regards to morality (just to say it once): Mikoto was a complete jerk this episode. She instantly regretted it and hit a street lamp really hard and was bruised. That was really epic. I appreciate that scene. It was done well. I feel like Mikoto really regretted what she said immediately, but that was a definite moment of her weakness.

Going along with the darker theme of this season... Mikoto now actually kind of wants to become a "good" terrorist from what she's said so far. She stated that academy city is her enemy... that makes her a self-righteous terrorist. (a terrorist I agree with, but a terrorist nonetheless)... This is darker than the first season when she said: AC is a place for espers to grow and be happy and reach our true potential. I will seize it with my own hands. Um.... So... yeah... clones grow... and reach their true potential by dying in battle against Accelerator. They seize their destinies with their own hands: their toy soldier guns. They grab them and attack accelerator and die by reflection (as we've seen)... that's why AC is a great place to live in... new season... new moral convictions... This time she's really starting to lose her base of who she is and you can tell it's affecting her sanity in a way...

Even if she was violent before in being a vigilante... willingly blowing up laboratories... trying to kill multiple people... breaking down and damaging property (street lights), saying that the city that she lives in is her enemy, not relying on her friends and shouldering the burden herself, are all a regression for her into her old lonely self... and also a deterioration because now she is losing her cool/sanity when she remembers the experiments with the clones dying (when she gets that painful expression on her face when she remembers it...) What I'm trying to say is: Mikoto is starting to go crazy. This not only means her personal reality is temporarily affected (most likely), but it also means that she could become A. a villain or B. a lunatic... I don't really like either of these options...

This is the main reason I am happy to see her with Touma/her friends. She escapes from reality for a bit. Talking about things like boyfriends when this is all going on seems ridiculous, but it might be what is saving her from going truly insane under the immense pressure of the moral responsibility/burden that she is feeling/facing. In other words: she needs breaks like this to remind her of the human part of herself... otherwise she would just lose herself in her quest to shut down the experiment...
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Old 2013-06-23, 03:44   Link #33
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Ehhh..? Is that concerned Doctor related to Shinobu? They seem to have the same hair color and face.
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Old 2013-06-23, 04:12   Link #34
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Anyway, I would like to point out that we only have 3 recurring good guys (literally) in all of Railgun... Touma, the doctor who helped Misaka in season 1, and Konori's boyfriend. Every other guy was either: a gangster (we saw this multiple times), an evil scientist (Gensei), the head of a dark research project ( Kites Knockraven), a financial person in a project (Amai Ao, this episode), a henchman for a villain (yellow marble, green marble, and the other power suits), Accelerator who has been an evil jerk as well.... chewing finger(s) (maybe)..., and the guy from the experiment this episode that talked to Accelerator to convince him to join it, ..and who knows who or what else.

Has anyone else noticed that there are so few "good guys" in all of railgun? It's been freaking me out actually. I almost feel like railgun is being sexist even though I know that hopefully isn't true............................. I would say that Railgun is happening in the school garden... but it isn't 50% of the time... I dunno... it slightly bothers me... As far as railgun is concerned, the only "decent" guy in all of Academy City that is a teenager is Touma Kamijou.
Guy == villain is a stereotype very very very often used in anime.
It's because justice will always win and the villain will have to "suffer" at a certain point.
And it's more acceptable to beat up a boy, than to beat up a girl.

PS: Railgun is about 4 girls doing their stuff.
It is normal for it to have so few guys around and nearly full female cast.
Add to it the above and nearly all boys are evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Going along with the darker theme of this season... Mikoto now actually kind of wants to become a "good" terrorist from what she's said so far. She stated that academy city is her enemy... that makes her a self-righteous terrorist. (a terrorist I agree with, but a terrorist nonetheless)... This is darker than the first season when she said: AC is a place for espers to grow and be happy and reach our true potential.
This is a nice comparison between the two seasons.
She definitely got hit hard with all the killing.
I wonder if she will change her view of AC afterwards, (this was not mentioned in manga (or I missed it).)
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Old 2013-06-23, 04:14   Link #35
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
This is a nice comparison between the two seasons.
She definitely got hit hard with all the killing.
I wonder if she will change her view of AC afterwards, (this was not mentioned in manga (or I missed it).)
Kamachi's style has always been that nothing is clear-cut all black or all white.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2013-06-23 at 05:43.
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Old 2013-06-23, 07:18   Link #36
Sackett
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Has anyone else noticed that there are so few "good guys" in all of railgun? It's been freaking me out actually. I almost feel like railgun is being sexist even though I know that hopefully isn't true............................. I would say that Railgun is happening in the school garden... but it isn't 50% of the time... I dunno... it slightly bothers me... As far as railgun is concerned, the only "decent" guy in all of Academy City that is a teenager is Touma Kamijou.

In this episode Mikoto acted more girly than normal at the vending machine. She's usually moe, but she was actually acting girly IMO when she was laughing at the $20 lost by Touma. (This might have been because she thought she had stopped the experiment though as well). I am pointing out though that Saten teased Mikoto about her boyfriend many times in Railgun S and everything that's been mentioned/referenced at least 3 times has happened... or had something of the sort happen. (This episode might be it though).
I have so much I want to reply to here, but I think I'll need to wait until after the Sister's arc is completed.
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Old 2013-06-25, 20:19   Link #37
Sasukeuzi
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Ehhh..? Is that concerned Doctor related to Shinobu? They seem to have the same hair color and face.
Are you talking about Amai? Not really. The closest relation they have is being part of the same project (or used to be).
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Old 2013-06-27, 01:59   Link #38
dniv
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
I have so much I want to reply to here, but I think I'll need to wait until after the Sister's arc is completed.
Spoiler for what I know of raildex:


Episode 11 finally demonstrated the first 1/2 of my point. Mikoto is becoming less stable.
Spoiler for episode 11:


We still haven't seen her go crazy yet... though destroying public property is always a good first step... let's see how she'll actively go about destroying her enemy from here.

Though I will say it's not only insanity... most importantly... it's a delusion.
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