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Old 2013-06-29, 10:01   Link #29161
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Asia may not have a debt culture but Japan is now the Asian country with the most amount of debt and if you compare the amount of dept person, it is the most in debt country in the world.
National debt has nothing to do with the savings rate of the citizens. Confusing the two just makes no sense at all if you want to make an argument.

Quote:
Apparently not in China
Your link did not suggest that the Chinese are going into debt to buy luxury goods. So I don't know what you are trying to say.
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Old 2013-06-29, 10:42   Link #29162
SeijiSensei
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The article about Japan didn't talk about consumers going into debt either. It simply said that people at the top of the income distribution were once again starting to spend on luxury items. If anything the article suggested this consumption was being funded by increased bonuses and the recovery of the Japanese stock market. You're the one who brought up consumer debt.
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Old 2013-06-29, 10:46   Link #29163
ArchmageXin
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China's public debt is ~17% to GDP, America is 75%, and Japan is what? 400%?
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Old 2013-06-29, 15:58   Link #29164
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Asia may not have a debt culture but Japan is now the Asian country with the most amount of debt and if you compare the amount of dept person, it is the most in debt country in the world.

Japanese national debt, which is double of Japanese GDP, is the government's debt to the citizens - not borrowed money from other countries. There's that too, but much smaller scale.
Meaning, if the government was to simply ignore the debt and pretend it doesn't exist, only ones hurting are the Japanese people themselves.

In fact, if the Japanese government was to try and PAY this debt, which is obviously impossible since it's higher than the GDP, is to tax people.
Yeah. That's right. Only way to pay the Japanese people back is to take money from them and then pay the debt. Which obviously accomplishes nothing.

America on the other hand.... owes a lot of people money. And I don't mean the Americans.
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Old 2013-06-29, 17:12   Link #29165
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
America on the other hand.... owes a lot of people money. And I don't mean the Americans.
Foreign holdings constituted $5.7 trillion as of April, 2013, or about a third of our current total debt of $17 trillion.

One reason is that foreign banks and governments prefer to hold US debt over that of other countries. In fact, given the negative real rates currently attached to US debt securities, foreign countries are effectively paying the US to hold their money for them. This has been true for some time.
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Old 2013-06-29, 18:50   Link #29166
AnimeFan188
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Join Date: Jan 2008
FYI, We Just Won a War in the Philippines
Did you know the U.S. was at war in the Philippines?:

"In February this year Aquino visited the rebel stronghold in Mindanao to finalize a
peace deal. The treaty promised to finally deprive terrorists of their safe haven in
the Philippines.

With the signing of the peace deal, America could tentatively claim victory in its
Philippines shadow war. And in June, Adm. Bill McRaven, head of Special Operations
Command, said the American presence on the archipelago nation could begin to
wind down."

See:

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/3a8b708016d7
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Old 2013-06-29, 19:10   Link #29167
ganbaru
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U.S. asked Ecuador not to give Snowden asylum: Correa
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...95S0CC20130629

Mired in recession, ex-Yugoslav Croatia joins troubled EU
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...95S0FT20130629

Thousands march in Istanbul in solidarity with Kurds
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...95S0DE20130629
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Old 2013-06-30, 02:31   Link #29168
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
The article about Japan didn't talk about consumers going into debt either. It simply said that people at the top of the income distribution were once again starting to spend on luxury items. If anything the article suggested this consumption was being funded by increased bonuses and the recovery of the Japanese stock market. You're the one who brought up consumer debt.
My point is that people who aren't at the top income brackets aren't spending because they know they shouldn't. Because they don't want to go into debt. And that no matter how much politicians try to encourage spending, in either China or Japan, neither country's citizens will be willing to spend more than what they earn. Because neither have the debt culture to encourage it.

By all means, the billionaires should be spending as much as they can. That's the only part of Trickle Down that mattered. I just made the point that it is wrong to tell the average Japanese/Chinese family to spend more to boost the economy, when it would only end in tears that way.
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Old 2013-06-30, 06:25   Link #29169
ganbaru
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Detroit faces exodus of police, firefighters
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...95Q0VS20130627

Philippines rebukes China for 'militarization' in South China Sea
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...95T03V20130630
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Old 2013-06-30, 08:13   Link #29170
SeijiSensei
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US may have bugged the European Union

Despite all their claims about how Snowden's revelations have threatened US security, American officials are no doubt a lot more concerned about embarrassing revelations like this one. Outraged reactions from European officials threaten to derail a US-EU trade pact. The Germans seem especially upset, partly because they were a primary target of American snooping, but also because many of those from the former East Germany can remember life under the Stasi.

Gay rights demonstrations even in Singapore

Homosexuality is officially punishable by imprisonment in Singapore though the law is rarely enforced. That didn't discourage thousands of people from demonstrating for homosexual rights.
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2013-06-30 at 08:37.
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Old 2013-06-30, 11:12   Link #29171
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Gay rights demonstrations even in Singapore

Homosexuality is officially punishable by imprisonment in Singapore though the law is rarely enforced. That didn't discourage thousands of people from demonstrating for homosexual rights.
To put the numbers in perspective, about 21,000 turned up for Pink Dot 2013 in Singapore over the weekend. This compares with about 5,000 who protested against a highly controversial Population White Paper earlier this year at the same venue, and about 2,500 who raised the hue and cry over alleged Internet censorship just earlier this month.

Yup. Gender and sexuality issues trumped the economy and "Internet freedom", in terms of popular support.
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Old 2013-06-30, 11:17   Link #29172
Bri
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An interesting piece of investigative reporting by an Irish independent newspaper lead to the publication of a number of telephone calls between two top bank execs. These men discussed how they would trick the Irish government in to bailing out their bank which in turn almost lead to the bankruptcy of the country.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ped-recordings

Sound clips of the phone calls:
http://www.independent.ie/blog/liste...-29367462.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFpME...embedded#at=14


Portrait of the ceo :
http://www.independent.ie/business/i...-29381731.html

The comments lead to anger in both Irish and German political circles. Particularly the arrogance and disdain for savers caused offence. German chancellor Merkel say they damaged democracy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...h-bank-scandal

Irish officials consider rogue bankers more dangerous than terrorists:
http://www.independent.ie/business/i...-29383299.html

This is just one player in the crisis but it's scary if that type of behavior and attitude is common at the top of financials.

Last edited by Bri; 2013-06-30 at 11:31.
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Old 2013-06-30, 11:19   Link #29173
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
US may have bugged the European Union

Despite all their claims about how Snowden's revelations have threatened US security, American officials are no doubt a lot more concerned about embarrassing revelations like this one. Outraged reactions from European officials threaten to derail a US-EU trade pact. The Germans seem especially upset, partly because they were a primary target of American snooping, but also because many of those from the former East Germany can remember life under the Stasi.

.
People are overracting. It is not like they were bugged by China or anything. American spying = for their own good.
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Old 2013-06-30, 11:19   Link #29174
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
My point is that people who aren't at the top income brackets aren't spending because they know they shouldn't. Because they don't want to go into debt. And that no matter how much politicians try to encourage spending, in either China or Japan, neither country's citizens will be willing to spend more than what they earn. Because neither have the debt culture to encourage it.
You got the entire situation wrong. It isn't a matter of debt, it's a matter of the fact that there is no real investment opportunities and the disincentive to spend when you know things will get cheaper soon from the bad economy, never mind the fact that we're talking about the highly elastic luxury market. Also, have you forgotten the Bubble Economy, when Japanese were racking up enormous debt which would never have happened if your imaginary "lack of debt culture" was true?

If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't say anything about it.
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Old 2013-06-30, 11:52   Link #29175
ArchmageXin
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The bubble economy? It was an excellent economy until Japan was stupid enough to sign the plaza treaty, which in effect back stabbed the entire Japanese economy.
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Old 2013-06-30, 11:55   Link #29176
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/jun/24/anglo-irish-bankers-taped-recordings
"Unlike the United States, no senior Irish banker has gone to jail or been found guilty in any court so far."

The Guardian must be using a very liberal definition here about which Americans bankers have gone to jail over the crash of 2008. Huffington Post has a slideshow of eleven scalawags, but people like Bernie Madoff don't really count. He ran a Ponzi scheme that defrauded investors but had nothing to do with things like mortgage fraud and credit default swaps.

Here's some of the reasons given in an Economist piece on why so few bankers are in prison:
Quote:
One reason so few bankers have been jailed is that it has proved difficult for prosecutors to connect wrongdoing low down in a large financial organisation—submitting false LIBOR estimates, say—to senior executives running the bank.

Public outrage is, however, prompting some countries to think again about imposing stricter rules that might make it easier to jail bankers..... Yet stricter liability has its drawbacks. Countries such as the United Arab Emirates that penalise bankruptcy and even threaten debtors with prison are not known for their vibrant start-up cultures. Discouraging risk-taking altogether, in short, can be counterproductive.
Apparently no one at the Guardian watches FRONTLINE, the best, and indeed practically the only, example of investigative journalism on American television. Here's their story on this subject from last January, a program entitled "The Untouchables."
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2013-06-30 at 12:13.
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Old 2013-06-30, 12:21   Link #29177
Vexx
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Maybe they confused Iceland and the United States ... they're both west of the Guardian after all
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Old 2013-06-30, 13:36   Link #29178
sneaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
People are overracting. It is not like they were bugged by China or anything. American spying = for their own good.
Right, we're doing things like industrial espionage for your own good...
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Old 2013-06-30, 18:10   Link #29179
Zakoo
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Totally, as if doing a free trade pact would do any good to us if the opposite party does industrial espionage. More mindblowing than this, you can't imagine it.
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Old 2013-06-30, 18:15   Link #29180
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
People are overracting. It is not like they were bugged by China or anything. American spying = for their own good.
America is spying on the European Union for their own good huh? That sure is presumptuous.
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