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Old 2013-06-29, 11:17   Link #81
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
Exposed him as a fake.
as a fake what? obito used kamui to escape all sorts of unfavorable situations throughout the manga. i wouldn't blame him for fleeing from an edo tensei army consisting of 5 former akatsuki members and madara. nobody could fight that. which is why kabuto was basically invincible, but that's another illogical story all together
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Old 2013-06-29, 12:44   Link #82
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As a fake Madara. Obito was relatively unfazed by the Edo-Tensei but he didn't want the information that he wasn't the real Madara to get out.
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Old 2013-06-29, 12:49   Link #83
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lol maybe he ran low on chakra. He was doing quite alot before the alliance came along, like controlling 7 fully transformed bijuu, and then tanking the entire alliance with Madara as well. Controlling these things and doing all that he did must take alot of energy.
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Old 2013-06-29, 13:31   Link #84
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lol maybe he ran low on chakra. He was doing quite alot before the alliance came along, like controlling 7 fully transformed bijuu, and then tanking the entire alliance with Madara as well. Controlling these things and doing all that he did must take alot of energy.
out of everything this makes perfect sense
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Old 2013-06-29, 18:30   Link #85
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So we are about to have a lot of questions answered:

Minato is looking at Obito (the man who lead to his death)

Obito is in front of Minato

Obito is in front of Sasuke

Madara is going to face Sasuke

Kakashi (once he gets out of Kamuiland) will see Minato and Sasuke
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Old 2013-06-29, 19:19   Link #86
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
As a fake Madara. Obito was relatively unfazed by the Edo-Tensei but he didn't want the information that he wasn't the real Madara to get out.
hmm. i'm not so sure about that. whether or not he sided with kabuto that information was going to get out. it didnt really matter as far as the alliance or the war was concerned. once they saw the real ET madara it just made things worse for the alliance since they were facing the real madara and someone so powerful and knowledgeable that he made a convincing madara. i guess kabuto could have switched and then sided with the alliance, but i dont think that would have worked out for him. i cant see the alliance morally standing by with kabuto using ET on all their villages' dead ninjas' souls
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Old 2013-06-29, 20:16   Link #87
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It's a fact, Kabuto directly threatened Obito with the truth about Madara, told him he wouldn't tell anyone when he agreed to their alliance. Later when Kabuto summoned Madara in front of the Alliance Obito confirmed he didn't want that to happen although at this point it was more because a zombie Madara wasn't part of his plan.
The rational behind Obito's scheme was that only the name Uchiha Madara was powerful enough to make all the villages come together, pool their resources and put in one place the two remaining Jinchuuriki for protection. With Kisame hidden within KillerBee's sword Obito would be privy to everything the Alliance had planned including the secret place where Naruto and Bee were stashed. While the Zetsu army had the Alliance on hold he would have attacked the island, took Bee and Naruto and summoned the Juubi at his leisure.

Kabuto wouldn't have worked with the Alliance he thought he controlled Edo-Madara and therefore believed himself invincible. Without Itachi and Sasuke he would have eventually overplayed his hand and tried to order Madara around and be destroyed as a result.
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Old 2013-06-29, 21:17   Link #88
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^I agree with everything you said here, but obito did nothing to stop kabuto from using edo-madara. and even when edo-madara was used it made no difference that the alliance found out obito wasn't madara. i guess the fault is in the story though. not in your description
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Old 2013-06-29, 23:39   Link #89
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I'm not debating whether those facts arrange themselves well with one another, just that this is what the author went for.

Now to be fair with Kishomoto this was before the war proper so at this point of the story Kabuto could have made known that Obito wasn't Madara to the Kage which might have thrown a wrench into into his plan... Except for the fact that to prove that he'd have to display Edo-Madara which would defeat the purpose. Oh well.

Last edited by Hunter; 2013-06-30 at 12:44. Reason: typo
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Old 2013-06-30, 10:25   Link #90
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With all the war and "reveals," the story is kind of in a boring place right now. With revelas come wishy washy plot (though I guess it was always there, just didn't see it), and the beheading of character development.
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Old 2013-06-30, 10:33   Link #91
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and even when edo-madara was used it made no difference that the alliance found out obito wasn't madara.
At the time Kabuto showed Madara to Obito it didn't matter too much i think, what mattered more for Obito is that if Madara is back his dreams might be crushed. The whole plan was for Madara to control the world, not Obito. We see the thing in this war where Obito doesn't want to listen to Madara's orders and ends up being forced to sacrifice himself. We now know what Obito knew at the moment he saw Edo Madara, that was explained by Obito himself: without Nagato to sacrifice himself it must be Obito to sacrifice himself for Madara's revival. The plot hole part seems to be that Obito is too weak to seal the 10-tails in himself, so how would he cast his eternal tsukiyomi? Maybe he needed all those eyes to make a different version where he doesn't have to become the host.
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Old 2013-06-30, 11:07   Link #92
itachi-san314
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At the time Kabuto showed Madara to Obito it didn't matter too much i think, what mattered more for Obito is that if Madara is back his dreams might be crushed.
that would make sense except obito's dream is for a fake world. his goal and motivation are just too weak to make any kind of impact like that. he wants a fake world to be with the girl who didn't love him. i just can't wrap my head around that as a dream that can be crushed. also, madara may be in charge, but why not just give obito his fake world with fake rin? might as well make the emo boy happy and then forget about him so he doesn't possibly bother him in the future

Quote:
The whole plan was for Madara to control the world, not Obito. We see the thing in this war where Obito doesn't want to listen to Madara's orders and ends up being forced to sacrifice himself. We now know what Obito knew at the moment he saw Edo Madara, that was explained by Obito himself: without Nagato to sacrifice himself it must be Obito to sacrifice himself for Madara's revival. The plot hole part seems to be that Obito is too weak to seal the 10-tails in himself, so how would he cast his eternal tsukiyomi? Maybe he needed all those eyes to make a different version where he doesn't have to become the host.
i'm sure there will be a reason, but kishi could have made it so that madara in his zombie form was good enough to do whatever he wanted and obito didnt have be sacrificed. another weak storyline here is that obito needs to be sacrificed so that madara can become alive again, but madara is for all intents and purposes alive right now and seemingly in a more durable form than an actual living body that can be killed. i dont know. this whole side story with obito is so frivolous i have a hard time explaining it
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Old 2013-06-30, 19:01   Link #93
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another weak storyline here is that obito needs to be sacrificed so that madara can become alive again, but madara is for all intents and purposes alive right now and seemingly in a more durable form than an actual living body that can be killed.
I like that idea, because at least there's one weakness of the Edo Tensei that we know of. But i would like more weaknesses for it, because this still doesn't look like a real weakness unless someone wants to become a tailed beast host. If it was such a godlike jutsu i would have expected that Danzou used it.

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i dont know. this whole side story with obito is so frivolous i have a hard time explaining it
Maybe its better if we forget it now that the focus is shifting on Madara
BTW Obito's story is too forced, right from the beginning when he happens to randomly fall into Madara's super secret cave. Then he becomes a substitute for Nagato. Seems like the story would have been better if it was Nagato who didn't listen to Naruto's nice little speech and escaped when he had a chance (when Naruto didn't want to kill him), that would have left the dead dead and Naruto in trouble for letting the akatsuki leader escape. And then an alliance would be formed (of course the alliance being formed because of the attack on Konoha and on Bee was enough for the leaders to understand what's at stake instead of the bad guys who tried to hide themselves now suddenly breaking into the kage summit uniting their enemies just when akatsuki has been reduced to a couple of members) while Tobi reveals himself to be an Edo Tensei of Madara (which would also mean that Hashirama really killed Madara but Madara somehow stole the 2nd's Edo Tensei and maybe made a seal on his body before the fight to activate when he dies, etc.) who planned to be resurrected by Nagato. Of course the problem is that more chapters are needed, and also Obito and Kakashi are very popular characters, so why not give some emotional stuff to the readers. Kishimoto probably planned it from the beginning for Tobi to be Obito, but i think this way it became too convoluted, there are too many plot holes.
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Old 2013-06-30, 19:40   Link #94
itachi-san314
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Seems like the story would have been better if it was Nagato who didn't listen to Naruto's nice little speech and escaped when he had a chance (when Naruto didn't want to kill him), that would have left the dead dead and Naruto in trouble for letting the akatsuki leader escape. And then an alliance would be formed (of course the alliance being formed because of the attack on Konoha and on Bee was enough for the leaders to understand what's at stake instead of the bad guys who tried to hide themselves now suddenly breaking into the kage summit uniting their enemies just when akatsuki has been reduced to a couple of members) while Tobi reveals himself to be an Edo Tensei of Madara (which would also mean that Hashirama really killed Madara but Madara somehow stole the 2nd's Edo Tensei and maybe made a seal on his body before the fight to activate when he dies, etc.) who planned to be resurrected by Nagato. Of course the problem is that more chapters are needed, and also Obito and Kakashi are very popular characters, so why not give some emotional stuff to the readers. Kishimoto probably planned it from the beginning for Tobi to be Obito, but i think this way it became too convoluted, there are too many plot holes.
wait... so why aren't you the writer for naruto? this story would have been worlds better than what we have with obito.

that said, i was always a huge fan of tobi and i was a big fan of him being obito. it's just that everything after that involving obito was total crap. i still think the obito story could have been good. he should have been controlled by madara for instance which would have explained his dual personalities. serious = madara's personality, goofy tobi = obito. this control could have been done through the black rods since they are madara's will. and obito simply shouldn't have been all about rin. he should have just been a total psychopath. madara knew that the uchiha have that flawed bloodline chakra trait that creates sharingan and MS. so in order to force obito to have a MS he should have psychologically tortured him to an extent maybe surpassing sasuke's torment at the hands of itachi. then obito would be an unpredictable psycho controlled at times by the more calculated madara when the situation called for it. that was what i always wanted to see from tobi because i was big on having the dual personalities that i enjoyed explained
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Old 2013-06-30, 20:13   Link #95
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Tobito couldn't be made good no matter what for two reasons : first Obito as an identity is entirely meaningless to the story except for cheap and pointless drama with Kakashi who is but a secondary characters at the end of the day. Secondly and more importantly because, as often the case with masked villains, Tobi's entire character was built around the mystery of his identity and removing it was more likely than not to lessen his character instead of enhancing it.

As a masked man Tobi was a faceless evil, a dehumanized and creepy presence. His strength was within this unknown, his anonymity his best trait and the lack of persisting persona what made him interesting.
Even if the author had not so badly messed up in his portraying of Tobito it couldn't hold a candle to the questions and doubts embodied by Tobi.
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Old 2013-06-30, 20:30   Link #96
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Tobito couldn't be made good no matter what for two reasons : first Obito as an identity is entirely meaningless to the story except for cheap and pointless drama with Kakashi who is but a secondary characters at the end of the day. Secondly and more importantly because, as often the case with masked villains, Tobi's entire character was built around the mystery of his identity and removing it was more likely than not to lessen his character instead of enhancing it.

As a masked man Tobi was a faceless evil, a dehumanized and creepy presence. His strength was within this unknown, his anonymity his best trait and the lack of persisting persona what made him interesting.
Even if the author had not so badly messed up in his portraying of Tobito it couldn't hold a candle to the questions and doubts embodied by Tobi.
But I think what Kishimoto wanted to point out here was exactly that: "faceless evil" doesn't exist. Even the worst of the worst have some kind of identity.

Just look at Kabuto: Even if he tried to convince himself that he had "no identity" due to the events in the past, at the end of the day he still had the identity that he had during the current war: An underling of Orochimaru that stole his masters powers and used it for his own purposes.
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Old 2013-06-30, 20:52   Link #97
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Of course but it wasn't necessary for the audience to know this identity or at least to know with certainty. If faceless evil doesn't exist it is however made of countless faces lost in the crowd and left in untold mass graves.
By all means leave clues that Tobi could be Obito and Izuna and the merry band of far-fetched theories people came with along the years. Just leave the answer alone. Let him be the proverbial unknown soldier illustrating the ninja twisted ninja system.

Unknown Tobi is the incarnation of the the problem of this world returning with a vengeance. With an identity he's just some small man with small purpose.
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Old 2013-06-30, 23:37   Link #98
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"The fun is gone when the mysterious part is gone. Mysteries are aggravating to figure out but that is what makes this world interesting."

I don't know who said this line, but I am just going to leave this here.....
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Old 2013-07-01, 03:23   Link #99
itachi-san314
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Tobito couldn't be made good no matter what for two reasons : first Obito as an identity is entirely meaningless to the story except for cheap and pointless drama with Kakashi who is but a secondary characters at the end of the day.
i disagree. i think it could have made sense for madara and obito to have met the way they did if madara brought him to himself via zetsu on purpose. and if madara was wacthing him his whole life because he knew the kamui bloodline was within him. the happenstance surrounding their meeting was bad. i have no problem with kakashi being made relevant again.

Quote:
Secondly and more importantly because, as often the case with masked villains, Tobi's entire character was built around the mystery of his identity and removing it was more likely than not to lessen his character instead of enhancing it.
i disagree here too. of course this is all matter of opinion, but i would have been massively let down if we never got to know tobi's identity. it wasn't some fun thing to me like kakashi's mask. it was a crucial enemy and key player in the story who's identity means something. or at least should have meant something. if the story ended without us ever knowing who he was it would have been ballsy and interesting, but over all lackluster since we would never have been able to relate to a nameless faceless supervillain. it would have been like doctor claw in inspector gadget. basically just a big nothing and not satisfying in any way. i'm not saying obito is satisfying. i'm disappointed in his story. im just saying he could have been good. at least in my opinion
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Old 2013-07-01, 06:06   Link #100
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I'm confused about obito's ability. Why didn't he completely transfer himself to his dimension against konan instead of using izanagi? He could teleport to a far-off location and watch the explosions, then port back when they were finished.

Anyway, I'm glad this obito stuff is finished. I hope madara revives quickly in the next chapter and moves the plot forward a bit.
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