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Old 2013-07-02, 23:35   Link #5281
Ophis
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
However, losing all his childhood memories about being treated like a family member was still galling

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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Does NOT refer to his memories being erased. Instead, it refers to that he was denied ever making those memories, because it never happened.

This part says VERY clearly that he lost his memories "losing all his childhood memories". If he was denied of making those memories, he would say it. No matter how you look at it, it has no way of misunderstand this phrase. Maybe he lost only the memories of interacting with Miyuki, that's why he says that it probably felt akin to memory loss.


The fact is, they did something with his memories. The author has not released an arc explaining their lifes before the experiment so it's very hard to speculate.
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Old 2013-07-02, 23:44   Link #5282
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
This part says VERY clearly that he lost his memories "losing all his childhood memories". If he was denied of making those memories, he would say it. No matter how you look at it, it has no way of misunderstand this phrase. Maybe he lost only the memories of interacting with Miyuki, that's why he says that it probably felt akin to memory loss.


The fact is, they did something with his memories. The author has not released an arc explaining their lifes before the experiment so it's very hard to speculate.
Remember that you are basing your interpretation on a translation. Subtle meanings and differences can be lost when switching languages. I don't know what word was in the original Japanese, but if it's "inaku natta," it reads as "there became none" and there could be two interpretations:

1) It disappeared
or
2) He forgot, because it happened when he was a baby and it was later buried and forgotten from years of abuse and mistreatment.

However, even assuming "losing" is accurate, people "lose" memories ALL the time. It is called FORGETTING. No one had to have their memories erased.

Taken in conjunction that the paragraph reads as so:
Quote:
"Even if they were siblings, Tatsuya and Miyuki only started living together three years ago. In other words, they became bona fide siblings only three years ago. Before that fateful summer three years ago, even if they were living under the same roof, they practically never interacted with one another. Their current proximity was something strictly forbidden by their mother just as she denied any normal sibling interaction. Still, that may have been something decided by the Yotsuba Family.
Tatsuya had no intention of sprouting any complaints on that regard. It's not like that function remained within his mental landscape. However, losing all his childhood memories about being treated like a family member was still galling, so saying that he was displeased would be right on the mark.
The line about his "losing memories" refers specifically to his not being allowed to interact with Miyuki as family. It had nothing to do with the experiment.


Finally, the final word comes from Tatsuya himself:

Quote:
No memories, only affection. Occasionally, Tatsuya would ruminate that memory loss probably felt akin to this. Of course, he was also aware that he didn't qualify for that condition.
Very clearly states he did NOT lose any memories. He does "not qualify" for memory loss, because he never "had" them to begin with.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-03 at 00:11.
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Old 2013-07-03, 00:05   Link #5283
Ophis
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Remember that you are basing your interpretation on a translation. Subtle meanings and differences can be lost when switching languages.

However:



Very clearly states he did NOT lose any memories. He simply never had them to begin with. His condition is SIMILAR to losing memories. Memory loss is PROBABLY like what he has, not definitely.

this 2 statements are contradictory to one another......


well since I cant read japanese I have to base myself with the translation but if you're not capable of reading the japanese novel too, either you or me can be wrong.

I think we should stop this discussion and wait for an arc about this matter or else we'll just be wasting our time here. though it was interesting
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Old 2013-07-03, 00:26   Link #5284
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
this 2 statements are contradictory to one another......

well since I cant read japanese I have to base myself with the translation but if you're not capable of reading the japanese novel too, either you or me can be wrong.

I think we should stop this discussion and wait for an arc about this matter or else we'll just be wasting our time here. though it was interesting
Honestly, I'm less concerned now about the meaning and more about critical reading skills. And I'm just going to point out the most obvious one:

You do not say memory loss is LIKE memory loss, you say memory loss IS memory loss. The act of comparing his condition to memory loss already means what he has is NOT memory loss.

...Oh heck with it. Imma find the raw and I'll get back to you.
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Old 2013-07-03, 00:54   Link #5285
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Didn't the Yotsuba remove his emotions to make him capable of using magic normally. Born Specialized magicians aren't supposed to be able to wield other magic than the ones they were born with. Though Tatsuya is able because space were opened by removing his emotions/urges or something like that?
I just had an idea. This sometimes happens to me, it's rare but it happens.



Spoiler for Stupid Idea:
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Old 2013-07-03, 01:19   Link #5286
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Ok, here we go,

"Tada, osonai koro ni nikushin toshite sesshita kioku ketsujo ni futsugou wo kanjiru koto ha aru. Fuman ga aru to sureba sono ten da."

I believe the literal translation would be:

"But, having no memories of being treated like a family member ever since he was small had an inconvenient feeling. If he was dissatisfied, it was about that point."

The word in particular is "ketsujo" which means "lack" or "deficiency." It means he never had it.

In short, ever since he was a child, he has never been treated like a family member.

If I made a mistake, or if someone wants to offer an alternate translation, please do.
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Old 2013-07-03, 06:29   Link #5287
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and before that I spotted another doujin made on April this year...
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Old 2013-07-03, 10:07   Link #5288
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And now for something completely different...

Question: Was it mentioned somewhere as to when and how Tatsuya obtained Flash Cast and Elemental Sight? I don't seem to recall it being mentioned anywhere, be it the LN or the web summaries(or it's probably me having a rusty memory). All we got are explanations as to what those skills do. Was it before or after the experimentation?
Thanks in advance.
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Old 2013-07-03, 11:08   Link #5289
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Originally Posted by belatkuro View Post
And now for something completely different...

Question: Was it mentioned somewhere as to when and how Tatsuya obtained Flash Cast and Elemental Sight? I don't seem to recall it being mentioned anywhere, be it the LN or the web summaries(or it's probably me having a rusty memory). All we got are explanations as to what those skills do. Was it before or after the experimentation?
Thanks in advance.
Elemental sight is genetic level so since birth.
Flash cast is obtain latter we don't know exactly when but in Volume 4, Yamanaka and Fujibayashi say this:
Quote:
"Single Systematic Flash Cast, eh. Oh well, at least he managed to keep our secrets."
The ones who wanted Flash Cast to remain a secret were the Yotsuba Family and not the Independent Magic-Equipped Battalion. This ability was considered too unethical for even the military to adopt.
The Independent Magic-Equipped Battalion labeled Tatsuya's original magic as classified. Even in the direst straits, Tatsuya stuck to his guns and never used "Decomposition", only activating his Personal Restoration ability, which was something that no one could identify even if they saw it anyway. This way, Tatsuya only drew the attention of the masses. Otherwise, from the military's perspective, a prized military asset like Tatsuya should be constantly protected from the influence of foreign elements.
At the same time, that would also severely limit his personal freedom. If the situation developed in that direction, the military would be forced to consider opposing, no, flat out countermeasures against Tatsuya. While his words were irksome, Yamanaka actually heaved a sigh of relief at the current outcome.
"The CAD in his left hand is calibrated for Oscillation-Type Magic precisely to cover for this. He's just as prudent as always."
"If that's a high school student, there is something seriously wrong with this world. But, Flash Cast...... If he was an enemy, that sort of speed would be a terrifying threat."
Fujibayashi expressed her sincere acknowledgement of Yamanaka's words.
"Indeed...... That's practically brainwashing the brain into carving the images of the Activation Sequences into memory, then directly recalling the Activation Sequence from memory without the aid of a CAD. This ability completely bypasses the need for the CAD to spread and read the Activation Sequences......
In his situation, the calculation area in his consciousness has taken this to the next level. By being able to construct Magic Sequences from memory, he also avoids the time needed to construct Magic Sequences in real time...... This way, he has absolutely replaced the deficit in processing speed."
"More like made up for and then some. Do we even have someone in the troop that can beat the speed he just displayed? Even Yanagi, who shares the same systematic talent, is only barely able to match him."
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Old 2013-07-03, 11:39   Link #5290
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As I understand it, Flash Cast is the result of the Artificial Magician operation that left him without strong passions.

On that note, the exact cause of the loss of said passions is rather intriguing. We know that it occurred as a result of the Artificial Magician operation, but nowhere is it stated to have been the naturally occurring consequence of the addition of an artificial magical operation area. Indeed, as a result of the operation, even Miya "lost" some of her emotions, though she was not the one being operated upon, and should thus be exempt to its effects.
Add to this the discussion between Miya + Genzou regarding the potential effects of her ability on her sister, i.e. that the awareness of having lost her memories would drive her insane, and it seems clear that mental manipulation magic has many unintended consequences that, as opposed to naturally occurring phenomenon, have instead some degree of agency involved.
In short, I'm curious if it's possible that the loss of his passions is something along the lines of a defense mechanism unconsciously enacted to protect himself, and not some "physical" limitation of his mind, particularly given the way his reaction to those feelings is described, i.e. turned to data. It's not an uncommon psychological defense mechanism for victims of terrible drama to view what happens to them as though it were happening to someone else (this is essentially what Miya did to her sister Maya).
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Old 2013-07-03, 11:44   Link #5291
Oxide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belatkuro View Post
And now for something completely different...

Question: Was it mentioned somewhere as to when and how Tatsuya obtained Flash Cast and Elemental Sight? I don't seem to recall it being mentioned anywhere, be it the LN or the web summaries(or it's probably me having a rusty memory). All we got are explanations as to what those skills do. Was it before or after the experimentation?
Thanks in advance.
interesting question but all of that is hardly mentioned in details by the novel so i will pitch few random thoughts myself so feel free to ignore it ... for some time i though that elemental eyes is somewhat too convienient due to multiply functions that are not connected to each other (or rather all over the place). Rather than one ability it seems like set of abilities that don't really overlap with fujibayashi explanation of this particular superpower ...

Cognition should be affected by mental interference magic so ... attention, memory, understanding, learning, reasoning, problem solving and decision making high efficency of all of them migtht not be a simple coincidence. In those lay reason why Tatsuya can use flash cast as well as why it seem so natural to him like it is some sort of personal ability(rather than family technique). If we follow that logic every superhuman feat he pulls off might actualy be result of the experiment that somewhat overlocked his brain(by stripping it from "unnecessary" functions, rewritting mental processess into more efficent entities) and which overall aim was to create superior artifical magician. When you think about it magic doesn't create anything in mknr it is a technique to change and manipulate one which already exist. We know that artifical magic processing area wasn't any kind of device and i don't think you can just materialize it out of nowhere. If one could just create it he would be at the same time able to imporve the design so it would succeed ... So it leaves us with mental design interface magic and device of possibilities called brain ... Magical calculation area already exist in unconciousness so why not "copy" or attempt to recreate it via similar mental process, place it inside conciousness and allow it regular operations. The difference in processing speed could be overcome to some degree by bioboosting the conciousness overall... Such thing would give another side to why he is considered 'fake' as well as depth to the task of creating magicians who are humanoid weapons given to yotsuba ... It is also worthy to point out that it is Maya who designed the experiment likely basing it on her own experience ...

but to be honest there is nothing solid to support this besides how his brain is described to work ... doesn't deduce analise or remember, calls are made instantly, information as well as analysis appear instantly, emotions are described to be killed in the process, killing intents as well as premonitions. There is also this deleting memories going mad thingy mentioned in nightmare ss as well as mental trigger for autorestoration ... etc etc etc ...

i always was feeling it was strange that Miyuki wouldn't mind seal placed on her brother, if you look at it as safety keeping him from going overdrive it would have some sense, such random thoughts can go far and fit pretty good into story though again there is little reference to deny any of that ... yeah well but thats just some rumbling really off the subject

Elemental eyes itself is described as an ability to identify the "landscape (color)" of the information dimension. I'm not sure it could be "imitated" moreover his mother seems to possess similar ability which allowed her to analyse mental structures ... this would suggest innate nature of ability

Last edited by Oxide; 2013-07-03 at 12:28.
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Old 2013-07-03, 12:08   Link #5292
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Actually, I think Flash Cast is something separate from his Artificial Magic Calculation Area. While the calculation area can use any spell he has memorized while skipping use of a CAD, Flash Cast seems to only use one process but is literally instant.
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Old 2013-07-03, 12:10   Link #5293
Rasen
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i always was feeling it was strange that Miyuki wouldn't mind seal placed on her brother, if you look at it as safety keeping him from going overdrive it would have some sense, such random thoughts can go far and fit pretty good into story though again there is little reference to deny any of that ... yeah well but thats just some rumbling really off the subject
I'm pretty sure Miyuki does mind the seal placed on her brother. Tatsuya was sealed by order of the Yotsuba, and as a family that does not care for his safety, they wouldn't have sealed him for his health.

Also, when Miyuki does undo his seal, he shows no signs of "overclocking." In fact, given that the actions he is capable after the seal removal are the same as the actions he took back in Okinawa when he earned his nickname "the demon," it seems more likely he never had a seal until sometime between then and when he entered highschool.
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Old 2013-07-03, 13:07   Link #5294
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
I'm pretty sure Miyuki does mind the seal placed on her brother. Tatsuya was sealed by order of the Yotsuba, and as a family that does not care for his safety, they wouldn't have sealed him for his health.

Also, when Miyuki does undo his seal, he shows no signs of "overclocking." In fact, given that the actions he is capable after the seal removal are the same as the actions he took back in Okinawa when he earned his nickname "the demon," it seems more likely he never had a seal until sometime between then and when he entered highschool.
Um. You mean the part where he GLOWS doesnt count as overclocking?
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Old 2013-07-03, 13:10   Link #5295
Rasen
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Um. You mean the part where he GLOWS doesnt count as overclocking?
Was he continuously glowing, or was it a temporary surge due to the seal being removed?

When something is kept under pressure and then suddenly released, there is a temporary surge until things equalize. I'm trying to think of a good RL example, but all I got right now is like a soda can. (Not even a shook up one) When you open a soda bottle or can, there is a one-time release of the carbon dioxide as it disperses and the gas pressure equalizes.

Seeing as how the glowing stops almost immediately, I'm saying it's the latter.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-03 at 13:31.
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Old 2013-07-03, 13:46   Link #5296
XFire
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Um. You mean the part where he GLOWS doesnt count as overclocking?
No, it doesn't. He brings it under control instantly and shows no adverse effects. The "glowing" effect comes from his power suddenly being unsealed, like when water is released from a dam. If anything, the way he was before would be underclocking.
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Old 2013-07-04, 07:08   Link #5297
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Can time be a cardinal code???


What are the theorized cardinal codes you have here?
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Old 2013-07-04, 07:38   Link #5298
belatkuro
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Originally Posted by maxxus0923 View Post
Can time be a cardinal code???


What are the theorized cardinal codes you have here?
Someone didn't read the LN properly...

The Cardinal Codes are Magic Sequences for the 4 Great Systems/8 Major Types of Magic. There are positive and negatives for those, hence there are 16 Cardinal Codes. Nothing more, nothing less. And time isn't one of them. So there's no need for speculating or theories.

Last edited by belatkuro; 2013-07-04 at 07:56.
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Old 2013-07-04, 10:38   Link #5299
fujin of shadows
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Originally Posted by belatkuro View Post
Someone didn't read the LN properly...

The Cardinal Codes are Magic Sequences for the 4 Great Systems/8 Major Types of Magic. There are positive and negatives for those, hence there are 16 Cardinal Codes. Nothing more, nothing less. And time isn't one of them. So there's no need for speculating or theories.

But that is a very good concept...A spell that effects time........Do you guys think that Miyuki's Cocytus is a spell that freezes the sense of time of an individual.........I mean, that is a much more believable and more scientific explanation than freezing the consciousness of a person......
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Old 2013-07-04, 11:04   Link #5300
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Originally Posted by fujin of shadows View Post
But that is a very good concept...A spell that effects time........Do you guys think that Miyuki's Cocytus is a spell that freezes the sense of time of an individual.........I mean, that is a much more believable and more scientific explanation than freezing the consciousness of a person......
you use physical term with psychologic one thats why it sounds so wierd
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