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Old 2013-07-01, 09:52   Link #1501
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Taichi gets bashed on this thread a lot almost to a ridiculous degree.
The number of people who pop up here criticising Taichi from time to time is actually quite low, from what I can see: it's just that others engage them and the discussions (dare I saw, quarrels) go on for at least half a page.

(And if you go back far enough in the discussion - i.e. back to season 1 - you'll see where some of the 'not such a big fan of Taichi' opinions started. And they were not unreasonable either, just as Taichi supporters are generally reasonable too. It's just that everyone has gotten so used to focusing on the evidence that backs up particular points of view that it's getting more and more polarised now.)

But all up, this is nothing compared to what I've seen on Chihayafuru elsewhere: could we keep it at a reasonable level, please?
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Old 2013-07-01, 10:07   Link #1502
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The number of people who pop up here criticising Taichi
I don't think it is quite low at all, it's a constant thing on this thread. I also don't think it is wrong to constructively criticize a character but the criticism tends to be closer to character bashing because those who do it are the ones who admit they dislike the character. Every thing Taichi does is scrutinized & criticized to the highest degree on here.

I am not saying bashing is any better or worse in other places. Like I said I have seen plenty of character bashing of Chihaya on places like Tumblr. And I also felt the need to defend her. I find character bashing in general to be counter productive.

And it comes to the point where if you defend Taichi you are just doing so because you like his looks or are a defensive girlfriend. Sorry if I don't find that reasonable. However I am very thankful to the many posters on this thread who spoke up against that.

But besides the fact I wasn't even defending Taichi, I was just defending my right to like his character and the fact that I have my own reasons (which are not superficial) just as much as anyone has their own reasons for loving other characters the best. I don't think any character is better than another in this series, I just think we all have our own personal reasons for loving the characters we do, best. It's as simple as that.
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Old 2013-07-01, 10:13   Link #1503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I doubt this is the kind of show that attracts a large "otaku" following. As Kirarakim noted, it's based on a highly-popular josei manga. Unfortunately we no longer see demographic breakouts for anime viewing, so it is hard to say exactly who is watching. One thing we do know is that DVD and BD sales for the first season were pretty poor, averaging about 2,500 copies per volume. However the boost to manga sales after season one began airing was enormous. Sales nearly quadrupled to just short of 200,000 copies after the telecasts began. In 2012, Chihayafuru ranked sixteenth in total manga sales. Patterns like these are usually associated with shows that appeal to non-traditional anime viewing audiences, in other words, not otaku.
Apparently, the second season has boosted manga sales yet again. The latest volume has sold over 303,000 copies so far. The only thing preventing a third season is the lack of enough material for a Two Cour anime, I suspect.
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Old 2013-07-01, 10:19   Link #1504
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I don't think it is quite low at all, it's a constant thing on this thread. I also don't think it is wrong to constructively criticize a character but the criticism tends to be closer to character bashing because those who do it are the ones who admit they dislike the character. Every thing Taichi does is scrutinized & criticized to the highest degree on here.

...

And it comes to the point where if you defend Taichi you are just doing so because you like his looks or are a defensive girlfriend. Sorry if I don't find that reasonable.

However I am very thankful to the many posters on this thread who spoke up against that.
Please read it again: I said that "the number of people is quite low". Going back through the thread, I counted maybe around 4-5. Going back quite far, what I found was that when people brought up Taichi in a negative light, or sometimes, even in a somewhat ambivalent light, another handful of people ended up jumping to his defense, which led to a spiral of such posts (e.g. when Sumire's initial intentions for joining the karuta club were compared to Taichi's).

To be frank, I can see where it comes from. That last time I made a comment about a character's actions being not quite as benign or positive as a lot of posters were making them out to be, several posts were made in that character's defense straight after. But that's the nature of discussion - those who like a character will defend them, and those who don't like the character as much (or at all) will continue to point out their flaws and perhaps even the bias that they perceive in the other side. Even the "protective girlfriend" comments came about as part of a discussion, not out of the blue.

My point, though, is that the biases do exist both ways, and if we all take them into account, maybe we wouldn't get so frustrated when others don't see things our way?

(And of course, there is the third group of people who genuinely evaluate all the characters' actions without bias, acknowledging things they do that are admirable, and criticising things they do that aren't. But my sense is that, perhaps, no one really is in this group even though there are those amongst us who think we are. Personally, I'd like to think of myself as generally being fair to the characters, but I am ready to admit that I'm probably a little biased one way or another.)
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Last edited by karice67; 2013-07-01 at 10:38.
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Old 2013-07-01, 10:38   Link #1505
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Even the "protective girlfriend" comments came about as part of a discussion, not out of the blue.
Well sorry it was uncalled for and demeaning to the female poster on these boards.

Quote:
My point, though, is that the biases do exist both ways, and if we all take them into account, maybe we wouldn't get so frustrated when others don't see things our way?
Of course biases exist on both sides but perhaps people who don't like a character can do something better with their time, like maybe discuss the characters they like then constantly bash another character.

I find the need to constantly criticize a certain character to be counter productive. What exactly does it add to the discussion except showing us all how much they hate the character?
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Old 2013-07-01, 10:48   Link #1506
karice67
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^Guess I'm pretty thick-skinned then, since I glossed over the analogy when I first read it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I find the need to constantly criticize a certain character to be counter productive. What exactly does it add to the discussion except showing us all how much they hate the character?
That's the nature of a discussion board though. If A looks at a character's actions in a positive light, but B disagrees and perceives their actions in a negative light, why should B not raise the point if it is a valid one?

And does it necessarily mean they hate the character in question?

Case in point: what I raised about Kana a few pages ago - I quite like Kana most of the time. I just didn't think that one of the things she did in that last episode was praiseworthy.
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Old 2013-07-01, 10:59   Link #1507
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
And does it necessarily mean they hate the character in question?
I am not saying it always does, or that every form of criticism automatically=bashing.

But I do think there is sometimes a small line between criticism & bashing.

Characters can make mistakes and that can be acknowledged. However when you try to say the flaws make the character themselves bad (and you start judging the fans of the character) then that is when I think we have crossed the line.

Also I am not saying every time I disagreed with someone criticizing a character I automatically think they were character bashing. It all comes down from the intent and purpose I see from their posts.

Certain posters who claim to dislike the character seem to post about the character all the time. I question their reasoning. Or maybe I have always been on the line of thought that if I don't like something I would rather focus on what I do enjoy.
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Old 2013-07-01, 11:02   Link #1508
karice67
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^
And that would be why I disagreed with your assessment that "Taichi gets bashed on this thread a lot almost to a ridiculous degree", because from what I perceive of the intents of the people writing the posts, it really hasn't happened all that often.
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Old 2013-07-01, 11:06   Link #1509
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
^
And that would be why I disagreed with your assessment that "Taichi gets bashed on this thread a lot almost to a ridiculous degree", because from what I perceive of the intents of the people writing the posts, it really hasn't happened all that often.
Well that is where we are going to have to agree to disagree.
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Old 2013-07-01, 20:27   Link #1510
Quadratic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Please note I am not saying you were doing this, you weren't but that is certainly the attitude among some people in this thread.
I will admit I have not always been on my best behavior in this thread (or maybe to say this entire forum), so I don't mind taking some of the blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
(And if you go back far enough in the discussion - i.e. back to season 1 - you'll see where some of the 'not such a big fan of Taichi' opinions started. And they were not unreasonable either, just as Taichi supporters are generally reasonable too. It's just that everyone has gotten so used to focusing on the evidence that backs up particular points of view that it's getting more and more polarised now.)
To be fair (well, maybe not fair), a lot of the evidence (ammo ) against Taichi still seems to hold up now, 50 episodes later.
Sure, there are claims of Taichi making some development (yes, even I'd admit that), but I rarely feel it's in the areas that he needs it most.
If someone (Taichi fan, balanced fan, ...anyone) can say "well, look here at episode X, where he redeemed that past action by doing Y", then I'd stop holding it against him (or maybe in reality I won't...)

The closest I can think of, is his declaration of Arata being his "teki" as a forward development of his coward behavior of his past, but even that a bit of a hard sell.
I feel that I could spin more positives regarding Sybil in Psycho-Pass than I can with Taichi...
It becomes harder and harder to see his development when it seems to be moving as slow as say, Kimi ni Todoke season 2.


In any case, I think it makes sense why the number of character discussions (and "discussions") is Taichi > Chihaya > Arata.
Taichi has the most screen time, and Arata has the least.
There isn't much to discuss about Arata as his issues tend to be resolved on the same episode it was raised in. That's why the only comments I can only say is usually, "that was touching" or something like that.
Maybe I could ask where does Yuu (Arata's neighbor) fit into this shipping catastrophe?
Her screen time has disappeared off the face of the earth...hopefully back in season 3? (no manga hints/spoiler, please)
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Old 2013-07-01, 20:42   Link #1511
GundamZZ
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The game manga is getting interesting peak now. I support anyone who win the competition this time. Several karuta players' personal story are re-introduced. It also the show is about karuta player. It's not just about Chihaya and friends. I can sympathize each of them(except the current karuta master). His story was skipped in the first season, but it made the anime story incomplete.
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Old 2013-07-02, 08:11   Link #1512
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
I will admit I have not always been on my best behavior in this thread (or maybe to say this entire forum), so I don't mind taking some of the blame.
LOL it's alright I know I have said stupid things in the past too. We all have.

I just wanted to make it clear that although I was responding directly to you my rant in this instance was not directed at you at all.
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Old 2013-07-02, 18:11   Link #1513
thundrakkon
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I'm a straightforward type of guy, and that does get me in trouble a lot times. My intent is (usually) not to demean people, but to make an analysis as straight as possible without holding back too much. I do apologize that I have offended some people.

I do have strong opinions, and it is difficult to hold back at times. I'm not as eloquent karice67, and I think I have offended her a few times in other threads (unintentionally).

I think at this point in the story, people's opinions on certain characters have been ingrained into each individual and is unlikely to change. We can discuss it back and forth, but it is more to prove our point than to try to change anyone's opinion. Unless a character has a huge change or presence, the opinions will still be the same.

As for Arata, I don't think discussion about him will increase until he becomes part of everyday life around Chihaya (i.e. move to Tokyo). The few snippets that he appears in have usually resulted in a positive light. If he has a fault, it is usually self-incriminating. I agree with DragoonKain3 that the author probably writes Arata in as a character she herself is in love with.

As for Taichi, yes he has made improvements. However, his improvements have been slow, and he still often shows unattractive personality attributes, considering how much screen time he gets. He also has a background that I usually don't like in characters either (rich, handsome, has everything he wants on a platter, girls are goggling over him, yet sulks over the fact he can't get the girl he really wants) and a personality that rubs me the wrong way.

Either way, I do love to discuss this show, but if I don't respond to something, it is because I'm trying to not escalate it to a full blown argument.
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Old 2013-07-02, 18:42   Link #1514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
As for Taichi, yes he has made improvements. However, his improvements have been slow
Well, his development is slow because it's supposed to last the whole series. So it's more an issue of storytelling than his characterization.

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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
he also has a background that I usually don't like in characters either (rich, handsome, has everything he wants on a platter
So being rich and good looking is a problem by default? That's a pretty strong prejudice there.

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girls are goggling over him, yet sulks over the fact he can't get the girl he really wants)
Should he just give up on the girl he loves because there are a million of other girls who do want him? For Christ's sake, no! That really would really ruin his character.

I do think he could be more proactive with Chihaya instead of wallow in self-pity like he does sometimes. But considering she still sees the world through karuta lenses, he would probably have a better chance with her if he beats her in karuta beforehand.
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Old 2013-07-03, 01:58   Link #1515
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
So being rich and good looking is a problem by default? That's a pretty strong prejudice there.

Should he just give up on the girl he loves because there are a million of other girls who do want him? For Christ's sake, no! That really would really ruin his character.
Being rich and good looking is not a problem by itself. The combination of all those characteristics make it a problem. He is a character who does not appreciate what he has, but sulks for what he does not. He is a character types that has everything, but wants even more. And, to add on top of that, he gets upset (jealous) at others if he perceives that they have what he wants.

Now, the question of love is brought up for Taichi. Does Taichi really love Chihaya? Or does he lust for or is infatuated with her? Does he really want what is best for her? Or what he wants for his desires?
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Old 2013-07-03, 02:19   Link #1516
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
He is a character who does not appreciate what he has, but sulks for what he does not.
This isn't true. He wants to play Karuta because it's a way to fight against his cowardice, and he wants Chihaya because he loves her. None if this means he doesn't appreciate what he has.

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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
He is a character types that has everything, but wants even more.
He doesn't have everything. No one has everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
And, to add on top of that, he gets upset (jealous) at others if he perceives that they have what he wants.
He's jealous because he loves Chihaya. This is normal behavior for any person, rich or not.

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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
Now, the question of love is brought up for Taichi. Does Taichi really love Chihaya?
Yes. I don't think the series ever put that in doubt, so there's no reason for the audience to think otherwise.

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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
Or does he lust for or is infatuated with her?
Even Arata lusts after her, or why do you think he was ogling a photo of her sister in the last episode? But lust is a normal part of romantic love, so there's nothing wrong with this.

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Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
Does he really want what is best for her? Or what he wants for his desires?
He wants what is best for her, but he doesn't always know what that is. That's normal though. He's not psychic, after all.
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Old 2013-07-03, 07:29   Link #1517
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The fact that Taichi was pressing Chihaya to watch the match between Arata and Shinobu without even taking the time to celebrate his own victory proves that he wants what is best for her.
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Old 2013-07-03, 10:32   Link #1518
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He's definitely putting her wishes above his, or more exactly, putting what he thinks are her wishes above his own. We give Taichi props for doing so, but I'm not sure if that's the whole story.

For one thing, as it turns out Chihaya has a whole range of complicated feelings about watching Arata and Shinobu's match. Ultimately, she decides to see it, following Sakurazawa-sensei's sharp admonition (quoting from memory) "If you've decided to follow this path then there is nothing you are better off not knowing!" All of this has nothing to do with Taichi's chivalric gesture, which is nice but doesn't relate to her actual feelings.

The other thing is that earlier in the season we got some indications that Taichi needs to put himself first for a change. I recall Tsutomu or Nishida saying something to the effect of "He's finally putting himself first" when Taichi goes off to practice, following Chihaya's declaration that his making Class A was one of her goals for the season.

Loving Chihaya is a major--positive--impetus upon Taichi's character developemnt. It's a lot of the reason he's trying to become a person who doesn't run away (although I think that goal is based ultimately on gaining Arata's respect.) And Taichi's selfless devotion is inspiring.

At the same time, his love for her is probably getting in his own way to some extent. It's not helping him relate to Chihaya as she is: his gestures tend to be conventional, like the flowers in the hospital, and not personal. And to the extent his presence keeps other boys away, he contributes to Chihaya's own immaturity.

For what it's worth, I find character bashing and defending equally besides the point, insofar that reflects the poster's personal likes and dislikes. What's interesting is not you or me, but the anime, the manga.
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Old 2013-07-03, 11:27   Link #1519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
.
For what it's worth, I find character bashing and defending equally besides the point, insofar that reflects the poster's personal likes and dislikes. What's interesting is not you or me, but the anime, the manga.
But I think my defense of the character is never about my personal likes & dislikes but always comes down to the writing of the series and what the manga-ka is trying to portray with the character. And for the record I wouldn't just defend my favorite character but any character I feel is being bashed.

I don't care what people personally think of a character or who their favorite characters are but in the end that comes down to the writing not really the character.
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Old 2013-07-04, 00:04   Link #1520
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thundrakkon View Post
I think I have offended her a few times in other threads (unintentionally).
Hm...I don't really remember any particular incident, at least, not yet. Though pls don't take that as an invitation to try


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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
Loving Chihaya is a major--positive--impetus upon Taichi's character developemnt. It's a lot of the reason he's trying to become a person who doesn't run away (although I think that goal is based ultimately on gaining Arata's respect.) And Taichi's selfless devotion is inspiring.
Hm...if that's what it ultimately is, then I think that gaining Chihaya's respect is important too (in terms of karuta, at least).

Personally though, I feel that Taichi's goal is to ultimately become someone that he himself can be proud of.
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