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Old 2013-07-04, 12:43   Link #61
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but so is obito
No, Obito is not a genius, and by genius i do not mean having special abilities but to have a brilliant mind that can analyze jutsu and ninja moves and abilities in a very short time and solve secrets and think of a plan to counter the enemy, to learn the enemy's jutsu and fighting style, to discover weaknesses in seconds, etc. To be a genius the way Itachi and Minato are.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it would be nonsensical for kakashi to be able to use kamui as effectively as obito. also with the lack of chakra kakashi has it makes it doubly wrong
I agreed with that one, but that's another matter. He still can copy it or at least analyze it and come up with an effective counter move.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but back when we had this debate it was speculated that it's due to his zetsu body and hashirama cells that obito can spam whatever he wants. so far, i see no reason to think otherwise
Ahh yeah, i forgot that. But officially it was never explained and i don't think that a debate on some random internet forum is enough

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
my problem with obito throwing the kakashi fight is that obito started it in the first place...
Well if we go by your explanation then we could also assume that the reason for that is Obito trying to prove to himself that he has not emotions when it comes to killing Kakashi. I mean he wants to prove to himself that by going into a fight with Kakashi and killing him in cold blood. But it might be that he fails similarily to how Sakura failed to kill Sasuke in the last moment. Of course not exactly like Sakura since nobody can be as lame as she is in her worst moments
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Old 2013-07-04, 13:20   Link #62
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
No, Obito is not a genius, and by genius i do not mean having special abilities but to have a brilliant mind that can analyze jutsu and ninja moves and abilities in a very short time and solve secrets and think of a plan to counter the enemy, to learn the enemy's jutsu and fighting style, to discover weaknesses in seconds, etc. To be a genius the way Itachi and Minato are.
well i'm not sure how this is even a debate but he is certainly a genius no matter how you slice it. is he the superior genius of the series? no. i'd probably give that to minato. like you said, itachi and minato are a little faster on their feet, although keep in mind that he fooled itachi pretty completely and got his way in the end. and minato had quite a lot more fighting experience than obito did when they fought. we saw obito learn edo-tensei instantly so he's a quick learner as well. not to mention his impressive skill right after implanting rinnegan. how can he not be called a genius? he was able to control the gedo mazo, the kyuubi, the 6 jinchuuriki, the juubi and now made himself the juubi jinchuuriki. we've never even seen someone make themselves a jinchuuriki aside from the rikuudo sennin. so yea, obito's a genius

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Ahh yeah, i forgot that. But officially it was never explained and i don't think that a debate on some random internet forum is enough
the effect hashirama's cells has on sharingan techniques was explained during danzo's fight with sasuke. they improve their capability. it's a fact

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Well if we go by your explanation then we could also assume that the reason for that is Obito trying to prove to himself that he has not emotions when it comes to killing Kakashi. I mean he wants to prove to himself that by going into a fight with Kakashi and killing him in cold blood. But it might be that he fails similarily to how Sakura failed to kill Sasuke in the last moment. Of course not exactly like Sakura since nobody can be as lame as she is in her worst moments
sure, that's entirely possible. we dont have the benefit of knowing what obito is thinking like we usually do with team 7 and most of the other good guys. even some bad guys sometimes. but obito is usually pretty tough to read like when he fought minato and in these current fights. we can only know this once the revelation about him still harboring feelings for kakashi comes about
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Old 2013-07-04, 13:46   Link #63
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Wait... so the Juubi doesn't need great power to be controlled? A half (and that's being generous) dead nin can still take it in?

Also, what happened to it's final transformation?
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Old 2013-07-04, 14:51   Link #64
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
well i'm not sure how this is even a debate but he is certainly a genius no matter how you slice it. ...
I meant "genius" in an intellectual way, not as a measure of his skills and abilities that he obtained in different ways. Having a good eye, a good bloodline, lots of chakra, or even extreme talent in a special field (as Naruto has with natural energy, the sage stuff) does not mean he is intellectually a genius. Same goes for Obito even if it's to a lesser extent, i mean Obito is nowhere as dumb as sometimes Naruto is (counting animal penises and such)
Here my original point was that Kakashi is simply smarter than him when it comes to analyzing the enemy or the enemy's jutsu or tactics. Obito got a huge amount of powers and knowledge from Madara for free. You see the difference between Obito and Minato's level of intellect when they fight, despite the fact that Minato didn't know anything about his enemy and was caught off guard - while Obito knew quite a lot about his former sensei and also had all those new godlike powers - Minato beat him in a few minutes. We saw in that fight how fast Minato analyzed his enemy and chose a winning strategy.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
the effect hashirama's cells has on sharingan techniques was explained during danzo's fight with sasuke. they improve their capability. it's a fact
It explained that the cells enhance the duration of the jutsu but it was never said that they prevent blindness. If we went further with that logic then it should even be possible to use izanagi and izanami without losing the rinnegan eye. Obito now has a rinnegan eye but he did nothing with it (except some lesser stuff that's nowhere near the power that Nagato showed us). His corpses were even tailed-beast powered, so imagine a shinra tensei done with that amount of chakra.

Or it could be the oppsite: since the cells enhance the power of the eye they could also as a side effect make you lose your eyesight faster.
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Old 2013-07-04, 15:36   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
You see the difference between Obito and Minato's level of intellect when they fight, despite the fact that Minato didn't know anything about his enemy and was caught off guard - while Obito knew quite a lot about his former sensei and also had all those new godlike powers - Minato beat him in a few minutes. We saw in that fight how fast Minato analyzed his enemy and chose a winning strategy.
i agree minato is quicker about everything than obito, but i would still call obito a genius. he managed to outsmart itachi within such close contact over a long period of time. it's true that obito learned a lot of what he knows from madara and black zetsu (presumably), but the same could be said about minato learning a lot from kushina and the uzumaki shrine (presumably). when it comes to a straight up fight as we saw, they both resorted to their space/time technique 1 trick pony shows
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Old 2013-07-04, 15:59   Link #66
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How does obito do it?

Through sheer Rin driving will power.The flash back images we seen this chapter shows how his Rinness can even break Madara's power on him.Rin keeps him going and Kakashi is a part of that.So for the sake of Rin he will not fail.I think it's funny and enjoy it very much.
I also enjoy Madara's funny quirk of hating mr perfect Hashirama.Nothing else bothers him,the world coming to an end "oh well".But look at that Hashirama with all his do gooder BS attitude grrr.
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Old 2013-07-04, 20:02   Link #67
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Am I the only one, or do any of you also get confused for the last few chapters? First it looked like Naruto tried to stop Sasuke from attacking then suddenly Obito came back completely fine from his fight against Kakashi that Obito was supposed to have lost, then Minato uses his "god-flash-jutsu" and appears next to Obito... but suddenly Naruto is not seen anymore and we see Minato and Sasuke next to each other. THEN Naruto suddenly reappers next to both of them again (after we see a short scene with Harashima and Madara)... what is going on here? It is almost as if Kishimoto would take some unknown drugs for the last few chapters...
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Old 2013-07-04, 23:13   Link #68
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It's pretty much confirmed

"My fellow Judas...are you sure that's enough to bring an end to this war?"

Sasuke will betray them.
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Old 2013-07-05, 01:46   Link #69
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Dang, Story finally got interesting. If only Obito wasn't such an awful villain.
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Old 2013-07-05, 07:30   Link #70
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I think a lot of people are underestimating Obito's emotional pain. He was in love with a girl who didn't want him, but instead was in love with his comrade who treated him like an outcast. And then when Obito and Kakashi finally do become friends, he witnesses his friend murdering the girl that was everything to him in cold blood. Any normal person would be traumatized for the rest of their life.
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Old 2013-07-05, 21:00   Link #71
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^In the end Obito's motivations are not worse than Pain's or even Orochimaru's who wanted to destroy Konoha just for the hell of it.
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Old 2013-07-06, 03:03   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Monster0 View Post
How does obito do it?

Through sheer Rin driving will power.The flash back images we seen this chapter shows how his Rinness can even break Madara's power on him.Rin keeps him going and Kakashi is a part of that.So for the sake of Rin he will not fail.I think it's funny and enjoy it very much.
No coincidence it's called 'Rinegan'.
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Old 2013-07-06, 05:51   Link #73
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i agree minato is quicker about everything than obito, but i would still call obito a genius.
That's ok, i was comparing him to Kakashi and such, it's only in that relative situation the he's not as smart as them in battle situations. One thing that confirms what you say in this chapter is how Minato tells to Obito that he could have been hokage and that Minato did see the great potential in Obito despite how bad his performance was compared to Kakashi's at that young age. Of course one could argue that Minato's faith in Obito and Naruto was not based on facts but purely on feelings

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
he managed to outsmart itachi within such close contact over a long period of time.
I wouldn't call that outsmarting, it was simply his huge advantage of knowing secrets that Itachi didn't. I still think Itachi outsmarted Obito in every way he could based on his knowledge: he planted amaterasu in Sasuke's eye assuming Obito would approach Sasuke to corrupt him, he planted Shisui's eye in Naruto assuming that Obito would lead Sasuke to fight against Naruto in which case Sasuke would be subverted to Konoha's side and attack Obito.
When you have the upper hand based on some secret knowledge i don't have then you aren't really outsmarting me. Let's say you are Kishimoto in reality, and we discuss your manga in this forum, then if i don't know who you are i have absolutely no chance against you if we discuss what will happen in the manga next

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's true that obito learned a lot of what he knows from madara and black zetsu (presumably), but the same could be said about minato learning a lot from kushina and the uzumaki shrine (presumably). when it comes to a straight up fight as we saw, they both resorted to their space/time technique 1 trick pony shows
I don't think so because Obito was given a lot of abilities and powers as a gift, as opposed to that Minato has no bloodline and no special genetic abilities, he had to do it the hard way: learn everything. Minato was supposed to be Mr. Perfect in this context, because he can measure up to guys who are bloodline monsters and chakra monsters despite he doesn't have any special powers. And there's only one way to do it, to be smarter than them. Minato and Itachi are treated in a very special way by the author in this regard, they are simply better than other "geniuses".
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Old 2013-07-06, 11:19   Link #74
itachi-san314
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Let's say you are Kishimoto in reality, and we discuss your manga in this forum, then if i don't know who you are i have absolutely no chance against you if we discuss what will happen in the manga next
haha! well let's not get carried away here my point is just that someone as smart as itachi should have been able to figure out that obito wasn't madara, but he didn't. by you're own admission in this post, minato and itachi are the super geniuses of the series, but both were utterly clueless as to who obito was. yes, i know he had a mask on but he was still able to keep up his phony identity with them regardless of how much time they had to mull it over. that alone doesn't make him a genius of course. i'm just saying that he 'outsmarted' the two geniuses of the series in this particular instance.
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Old 2013-07-06, 11:58   Link #75
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It's not just Itachi. Kakashi, the Five Kages, Sasuke, everyone in the world was convinced that Tobi was Madara. He knew stuff he could not possibly have known unless he really was Madara. So yeah, it was a pretty convincing act, and even if you're smart, it's not just a case of putting two and two together.
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Old 2013-07-06, 12:50   Link #76
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I don't think anyone could have known who Obito was except kakashi.So even if they were like"i don't think this guy is realy Madara.",it wouldn't do much good. Itachi fooled him not caring who he really was\is.Obito as a person didn't matter to him Masked man as a threat to the village and his brother did
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Old 2013-07-06, 14:23   Link #77
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
It's not just Itachi. Kakashi, the Five Kages, Sasuke, everyone in the world was convinced that Tobi was Madara. He knew stuff he could not possibly have known unless he really was Madara. So yeah, it was a pretty convincing act, and even if you're smart, it's not just a case of putting two and two together.
but everyone in the world isn't a super genius. we've just established that only itachi and minato really have a right to that title. unless you want to disagree with that? and clearly your statement i bolded is false since he isn't madara.

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I don't think anyone could have known who Obito was except kakashi.So even if they were like"i don't think this guy is realy Madara.",it wouldn't do much good. Itachi fooled him not caring who he really was\is.Obito as a person didn't matter to him Masked man as a threat to the village and his brother did
i'm sure itachi knew obito since he knew kakashi pretty well. both itachi and minato must have known that obito was the son of kagami who logically must have been one of the elite uchiha to be on tobirama's team. there were pieces for them to work with, being 'super geniuses' and all. itachi was thoroughly convinced that obito was madara. if he wasn't he would have said so to sasuke before he died. instead he told sasuke a lot about madara and to be wary of him.
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Old 2013-07-06, 16:10   Link #78
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but everyone in the world isn't a super genius. we've just established that only itachi and minato really have a right to that title. unless you want to disagree with that? and clearly your statement i bolded is false since he isn't madara.

i'm sure itachi knew obito since he knew kakashi pretty well. both itachi and minato must have known that obito was the son of kagami who logically must have been one of the elite uchiha to be on tobirama's team. there were pieces for them to work with, being 'super geniuses' and all. itachi was thoroughly convinced that obito was madara. if he wasn't he would have said so to sasuke before he died. instead he told sasuke a lot about madara and to be wary of him.
que?? i thought this was shisui
plus kakashi is like what maybe about 10yrs older than itachi. its possible obito "died" before itachi meeting him or kakashi
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Old 2013-07-06, 16:19   Link #79
itachi-san314
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que?? i thought this was shisui
plus kakashi is like what maybe about 10yrs older than itachi. its possible obito "died" before itachi meeting him or kakashi
oh yea. that's correct. thanks. still though, they both knew obito for what it's worth. i guess obito's lineage is still a mystery (if it even winds up mattering or not)
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Old 2013-07-06, 16:47   Link #80
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but everyone in the world isn't a super genius. we've just established that only itachi and minato really have a right to that title. unless you want to disagree with that? and clearly your statement i bolded is false since he isn't madara.

i'm sure itachi knew obito since he knew kakashi pretty well. both itachi and minato must have known that obito was the son of kagami who logically must have been one of the elite uchiha to be on tobirama's team. there were pieces for them to work with, being 'super geniuses' and all. itachi was thoroughly convinced that obito was madara. if he wasn't he would have said so to sasuke before he died. instead he told sasuke a lot about madara and to be wary of him.
Ofcourse he isn't Madara, but Madara had told him things that nobody else but Madara knew. And people knew that there's no way anyone but Madara could know that. So in my opinion it still holds up, Obito knew things people thought only the real Madara could have known.
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