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Old 2013-07-07, 16:26   Link #21
Draco Spirit
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Most simple method to take him out the good old poisoned food/drink trick. Direct attacks are pointless and self defeating. Therefore you need to use attacks that don't rely on vectors.
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Old 2013-07-07, 16:34   Link #22
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He can do calculations and control on a molecular level.

He did rewrite a brain after all.
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Old 2013-07-07, 16:53   Link #23
dniv
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I don't think Accelerator would lose in his strongest form straight and simple.

Spoiler for Volume 2 of New Testament Index Light Novels :


@Ilidsor I don't think he could lose. We have the power level chart after all. I'm guessing that's a somewhat ranking of esper abilities. We realize that Accelerator was most likely
Spoiler for Season 3 of Index:
which means that it is not true that magic is more powerful than esper abilities.

If it were, why even learn esper abilities? (I guess if you don't know about magic... but then the esper side wouldn't be as strong as it is... maybe... I don't know.

I feel like Accelerator could be beaten via a simple method:
Spoiler for episode 15 Railgun S maybe :


@Chaos: yes. BTW: what I said is probably the only way of beating him now if he were trying his hardest.
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Old 2013-07-07, 18:41   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
He can do calculations and control on a molecular level.

He did rewrite a brain after all.
True, but that used up so much of his calculation ability he couldn't even reflect one bullet. With the sister's network only able to reach 50% of Accelerator's calculation ability, he might not be able to perform vector manipulation on a molecular level.

Winged Accelerator is probably a different story.
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Old 2013-07-07, 18:55   Link #25
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Hmm not really, attacks with vectors (including magic) can work. He doesn't just reflect (or redirect) everything with a vector. If there was a "setting" for that, he couldn't breathe or see (or even hold a glass or something, you saw what happened just by placing his foot on someone's chest with reflection on). So clearly he has his reflection set up specifically for everything, therefore if you could hit him with something he didn't know existed or what it was, it wouldn't get auto reflected even if it had a vector. So there is a clearly exploitable weakness... in theory, though where Mikoto could get something even if she knew about it is another story.
Actually he does have a setting for "reflect everything" (which does have the draw back you describe) he even has a setting for "reflect everything except for specific exceptions" and that is his usual default setting before being injured.

It's not that Accelerator is unbeatable, just that for most people beating him requires a non-reflectable attack with surprise and speed sufficient to defeat Accelerator before he figures out how to counter it. An attack that confuses Accelerator (such as magic) is a plus.
Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:
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Old 2013-07-07, 19:32   Link #26
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Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:
Right, just grade as "bad writing" whatever you don't agree with/understand and problem solved. "Great argument!". [/facepalm]
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Old 2013-07-07, 19:37   Link #27
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Actually he does have a setting for "reflect everything" (which does have the draw back you describe) he even has a setting for "reflect everything except for specific exceptions" and that is his usual default setting before being injured.

It's not that Accelerator is unbeatable, just that for most people beating him requires a non-reflectable attack with surprise and speed sufficient to defeat Accelerator before he figures out how to counter it. An attack that confuses Accelerator (such as magic) is a plus.
Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:
Spoiler for volume 22:


I think Accelerator is well-balanced. My favorite power in this series is IB for hopefully obvious reasons. Accelerator is partially so powerful after all because of the experiments. I think though that he was really strong when he was younger as well (to a point) [spoiler=episode 15] remember the flashback when he was a kid with Aiho... enough said. [/episode 15]

I am pretty sure that Accelerator has one of the richest character developments in Index. His one major weakness
Spoiler for post railgun S and somewhat during Railgun S:
He is sort of like Mikoto in that he will dish out his own vigilante justice to punish any criminals
Spoiler for LN volume 14:
. Accelerator is really one of my favorite characters here for this reason. He's very interesting. (I'm not sure if that last part should be moved to his character discussion... I'll just rewrite it there I guess...
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Old 2013-07-07, 19:57   Link #28
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Spoiler for volume 22:
Spoiler for volume 22:
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Old 2013-07-07, 20:21   Link #29
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Spoiler for Spoilers for future events in LN:
Spoiler for Reply to spoiler:
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-07-07 at 22:19. Reason: Please use spoiler tags when replying to spoilers
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Old 2013-07-07, 21:48   Link #30
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Even if he can solve poisons and stuff with vectors what if what is delivered in the food is not poison but miniature explosives?
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Old 2013-07-07, 22:13   Link #31
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Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
Right, just grade as "bad writing" whatever you don't agree with/understand and problem solved. "Great argument!". [/facepalm]
1: That was bad writing. Please provide justification for how that could possibly work.

2: This franchise is infamous for its horrible writing. Have you tried to actually read the Light Novels? They are quite possibly the worse written books I have ever read. Show don't tell is regularly violated, the structure is awful and mind numbing, the plots are full of holes and filled with reams of scotch tape. The Sisters Arc is one of the few decent plots.

I don't read this stuff for the writing quality, I come for the incredible world building, and interesting characters.

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Spoiler for Reply to spoiler:
Spoiler for Later events:


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Even if he can solve poisons and stuff with vectors what if what is delivered in the food is not poison but miniature explosives?
Still vectors.

Fast acting poison might work though, because it could disable him before he has a chance to manipulate the vectors. Since that would need more then simple reflection.
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Old 2013-07-07, 22:27   Link #32
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
Spoiler for volume 22:
That's very....off the mark
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Old 2013-07-07, 22:31   Link #33
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Spoiler for Later events:

...Are you trolling here? Because I literally just explained why that happened in the post you are responding to. He didn't 'turn it off' he was so busy calculating something else he didn't have the spare calculation to make it work by default like it normally does.

It's explained why he can breath and stuff so many times it's not even funny so I'm not even going to bother replying to that.
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Old 2013-07-07, 22:33   Link #34
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Without spoiling much, teleportation does have vectors.

It's been argued whether Kuroko's teleportation works with the same principle, but the safest assumption is to say it does too.

Regardless, Mikoto would never involve Kuroko with such a dangerous thing, not to mention ask her to kill anyone, for all that matters.
The problem is that, as I understand it, Accelerator cannot control vectors from distance, he needs to touch something in order to change its vectors.

So the point with teleportation, whether it has a vector or not, is that when Accelerator exactly enters in contact with a teleported object?

The episode of the glasses in Toaru Kagaku in my opinion should have never existed, because it simply makes Kuroko practically unbeatable.
For a glass to cut a column made of reinforced concrete there's no getting around it, it must have literally materialized directly in place, it would have never worked otherwise.

The only way to justify a way for Accelerator to survive that is by some kind of convoluted pseudo-scientific explanation, like "teleportation creates some kind of invisible gate on the destination first which Accelerator can deflect".


But then again Sackett is right, it's probably better to not think too much, there's too much stuff that doesn't quite make sense.
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Old 2013-07-07, 22:45   Link #35
Ilidsor
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The problem is that, as I understand it, Accelerator cannot control vectors from distance, he needs to touch something in order to change its vectors.

So the point with teleportation, whether it has a vector or not, is that when Accelerator exactly enters in contact with a teleported object?

The episode of the glasses in Toaru Kagaku in my opinion should have never existed, because it simply makes Kuroko practically unbeatable.
For a glass to cut a column made of reinforced concrete there's no getting around it, it must have literally materialized directly in place, it would have never worked otherwise.

The only way to justify a way for Accelerator to survive that is by some kind of convoluted pseudo-scientific explanation, like "teleportation creates some kind of invisible gate on the destination first which Accelerator can deflect".
.
Teleportation in this series works by having the espers move an object through the elventh dimension. Now I'm not a mathematician or a physicist so I don't really know what that means in detail but regardless it allows me to understand how Accel can reflect teleportation. Basically when it's about to return from the eleventh dimension to our normal three directions it has to interact with him. Therefore he can deflect it when it starts to interact with him. We never see this happen but we know it causes a 'strange phenomenon' to happen
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Old 2013-07-07, 22:56   Link #36
dniv
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
That's very....off the mark
???

This isn't wrong; at least I think so. I'm only talking about
Spoiler for volume 22, NT 7:
, but of course I might be wrong I guess....

@Sackett I think you're mistaking with the light novel. The reason the light novel is not as great as you would like it is because it is translated to english unprofessionally. BT does a great job and the translators are great, but it's hard or impossible to translate a book close to as near as well as a the original Japanese version. When the author uses character names and events and kanji that have multiple layered meanings, it is impossible to use english to show this. It's a weakness of the English language. I speak 4 languages and 3 fluently, so I recognize some of the weaknesses of English compared to other languages. Here... you have to realize that Kamachi's novels are most likely written much better than what you have seen. We don't see the original version... you do understand that... The same author does the railgun manga after all. It's just that the railgun manga volumes sold in the US were done via a professional translation and even the volumes online were done pretty well and there is much less to translate per chapter, but the volumes sold are probably slightly better done anyway because they are obviously professional compared to people who are doing it that are not being paid.

The series is a lot better than what you read online. Most people on the English wiki can only look at translations that are made in order to understand it. I'm taking Japanese next year and for a while longer than that and want to learn it (well for many reasons), but partially to be able to understand anime/manga/LNs completely. You have to realize that it's not in its perfect form.

However, what Ilidsor was certainly true here.
Spoiler for Accelerator facial features explanation and power explanation:
.

Anyway, you guys seem to be trashing what's going on. Talking about Accelerator during Railgun S... he is initially pretty strong. We can obviously tell this when he beats Mikoto thoroughly. I want to re-iterate here that it was his first time battling another level 5 when he fought her. He didn't know she was that weak. He wasn't just trying to insult her. He didn't actually know about her powers... but he purposely didn't use railgun to send it back at her and destroy her via reflect...

I think Accelerator can most easily be beaten now because of his extreme arrogance because he has always won all of his fights easily seemingly without even being touched. I'm guessing damaging his ego is a good first step to win... anyway...

@Sackett:
Spoiler for Index II:
I don't feel like Railgun S has bad writing either... It's the same writer for both... so if you criticize one... you are kind of criticizing the other... ....
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Old 2013-07-07, 23:06   Link #37
leukrota
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
1: That was bad writing. Please provide justification for how that could possibly work.
Spoiler for Light Novel:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
2: This franchise is infamous for its horrible writing. Have you tried to actually read the Light Novels? They are quite possibly the worse written books I have ever read. Show don't tell is regularly violated, the structure is awful and mind numbing, the plots are full of holes and filled with reams of scotch tape. The Sisters Arc is one of the few decent plots.
I think that's an exaggeration, but I won't say that writing is perfect.

Nonetheless, that's no excuse to put a dark glass on everything and think by default that the narrative is bad and whatever you don't agree with is the author's fault. You could at least make an effort to read carefully and try to understand those parts before passing them as defective.

Last edited by leukrota; 2013-07-07 at 23:16.
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Old 2013-07-07, 23:12   Link #38
Ilidsor
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Accelerator's reflection is a trained ability (contrary to what Ilidisor said), but it's on the level that it's a reflex.
I don't think it's trained. He's had it since he was a child, before he got involved in the 'darkness' of AC. It's 'trained' in the sense that he only got it when he became an esper but from what we have seen it's an inherent part of his power.
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Old 2013-07-08, 01:05   Link #39
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@Sackett I think you're mistaking with the light novel. The reason the light novel is not as great as you would like it is because it is translated to english unprofessionally. BT does a great job and the translators are great, but it's hard or impossible to translate a book close to as near as well as a the original Japanese version. When the author uses character names and events and kanji that have multiple layered meanings, it is impossible to use english to show this. It's a weakness of the English language. I speak 4 languages and 3 fluently, so I recognize some of the weaknesses of English compared to other languages. Here... you have to realize that Kamachi's novels are most likely written much better than what you have seen. We don't see the original version... you do understand that... The same author does the railgun manga after all. It's just that the railgun manga volumes sold in the US were done via a professional translation and even the volumes online were done pretty well and there is much less to translate per chapter, but the volumes sold are probably slightly better done anyway because they are obviously professional compared to people who are doing it that are not being paid.
If Sackett were talking about 'bad writing' in terms of language, then I'll second this somewhat due to translation challenges. And also, while 'show-tell' is ideal, sometimes, there are times when I don't see how it can be done for certain parts.

But if Sackett were talking about plot problems, then I somewhat agree with him. The power levels do get a little messed up and nonsensical at some point. But then again, it's hard to find a series with concrete plot-hole-less (in a pseudo sense in terms of plausability) explanations when the world-view becomes huge. Mahouka is still by far the best in giving me satisfying explanations to the world mechanics, though even that too became debatable when it touches bio-chemical stuff (specifically restoration on bodies lolz), where the author seems to lack sufficient knowledge in. Problem is authors can't be experts in each and every field that their story is going to touch on.

So the conclusion is that it's best not to think too much on these things
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Old 2013-07-08, 10:15   Link #40
Cosmic Eagle
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???

This isn't wrong; at least I think so. I'm only talking about
Spoiler for volume 22, NT 7:
, but of course I might be wrong I guess....
Can't actually answer because it's spoilers but

Spoiler for Index stuff:
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