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Old 2013-07-01, 08:15   Link #8041
darthfury78
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Originally Posted by Masurao45 View Post
not really, my side believes that Lelouch is alive and he'll come back like Milliardo Peacecraft/Zechs Merquise and Mu La Flaga/Neo Roanoke did. That's Sunrise and they screw up deaths even now.
If one wants to believe the unspoken word of Zero's Requiem, Lelouch is an immortal like C.C. because:

1. During the meeting between Charles and Marianne, Lelouch's geass symbol appeared in both of his eyes, which are high enough for Lelouch to take the Code of the Geass giver.

2. Since Lelouch never took C.C.'s Code, we must assume that his father slapped his Code unto his son when he grabbed his neck.

3. As we have seen with C.C.'s scar at the base of her heart, this would mean that the Code could only be activated when the heart is pierced with a sharp object. The Geass user dies and awaken once the Code is activated.

4. Suzaku killed Lelouch in the same manner. Nunnally felt his hand and got a flashback of all of his memories. The same thing happened when Lelouch felt C.C.'s hand and got a glimpse of her past memories.

All of this could prove that Lelouch is alive as an immortal like C.C. since her wish was for Lelouch to make her happy instead of wanting to die.

Personally, I hope that the new Code Geass movies as a remake of Lelouch of the Rebellion with a different ending as an alternate to Zero's Requiem.
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Old 2013-07-02, 12:42   Link #8042
wredsa
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post

1. During the meeting between Charles and Marianne, Lelouch's geass symbol appeared in both of his eyes, which are high enough for Lelouch to take the Code of the Geass giver.

2. Since Lelouch never took C.C.'s Code, we must assume that his father slapped his Code unto his son when he grabbed his neck.

3. As we have seen with C.C.'s scar at the base of her heart, this would mean that the Code could only be activated when the heart is pierced with a sharp object. The Geass user dies and awaken once the Code is activated.

4. Suzaku killed Lelouch in the same manner. Nunnally felt his hand and got a flashback of all of his memories. The same thing happened when Lelouch felt C.C.'s hand and got a glimpse of her past memories.

All of this could prove that Lelouch is alive as an immortal like C.C. since her wish was for Lelouch to make her happy instead of wanting to die.

Personally, I hope that the new Code Geass movies as a remake of Lelouch of the Rebellion with a different ending as an alternate to Zero's Requiem.
Nunnally can feel anyone's mind, so it was not like Lelouch touching CC.

I know this is going round and round but I got to say this again. If Lelouch faked his death, it would make him really evil, which he is not.
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Old 2013-07-03, 13:32   Link #8043
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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
Nunnally can feel anyone's mind, so it was not like Lelouch touching CC.

I know this is going round and round but I got to say this again. If Lelouch faked his death, it would make him really evil, which he is not.
Yeah. Either it would be him not knowing he ended up with the code at the time, or him being resurrected later on.
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Old 2013-07-06, 20:33   Link #8044
GreyZone
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Yeah. Either it would be him not knowing he ended up with the code at the time, or him being resurrected later on.
How about "if someone has to have this curse of immortality then I will carry it"? He fakes his death for his "zero requiem" and goes on living with this curse in the shadows. I don't understand what is supposed to be so "evil" about that...
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Old 2013-07-06, 21:03   Link #8045
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How about "if someone has to have this curse of immortality then I will carry it"? He fakes his death for his "zero requiem" and goes on living with this curse in the shadows. I don't understand what is supposed to be so "evil" about that...
Yeah. These claims are really random in my eyes.

Last I checked being a live hardly constitutes as evil. Certainly not more evil than the things he did leading up to his own personal form of "salvation" for the world.

It's funny that years later people are still arguing these same points and running these same conclusions that it's technically possible for Lelouch to have gained the immortality of Norio Wakamoto.
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Old 2013-07-07, 13:04   Link #8046
wredsa
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Yeah. These claims are really random in my eyes.

Last I checked being a live hardly constitutes as evil. Certainly not more evil than the things he did leading up to his own personal form of "salvation" for the world.

It's funny that years later people are still arguing these same points and running these same conclusions that it's technically possible for Lelouch to have gained the immortality of Norio Wakamoto.
being alive is not evil, but deceiving billions of people into thinking he is death but still living on is the work of decepticons. Lelouch himself said those who shoot should be ready to be shot at. He wanted to be executed for killing Euphie and Katase.
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Old 2013-07-07, 13:14   Link #8047
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
If one wants to believe the unspoken word of Zero's Requiem, Lelouch is an immortal like C.C. because:

1. During the meeting between Charles and Marianne, Lelouch's geass symbol appeared in both of his eyes, which are high enough for Lelouch to take the Code of the Geass giver.

2. Since Lelouch never took C.C.'s Code, we must assume that his father slapped his Code unto his son when he grabbed his neck.

3. As we have seen with C.C.'s scar at the base of her heart, this would mean that the Code could only be activated when the heart is pierced with a sharp object. The Geass user dies and awaken once the Code is activated.

4. Suzaku killed Lelouch in the same manner. Nunnally felt his hand and got a flashback of all of his memories. The same thing happened when Lelouch felt C.C.'s hand and got a glimpse of her past memories.

All of this could prove that Lelouch is alive as an immortal like C.C. since her wish was for Lelouch to make her happy instead of wanting to die.

Personally, I hope that the new Code Geass movies as a remake of Lelouch of the Rebellion with a different ending as an alternate to Zero's Requiem.
Jesus, not this again.
No, you are not getting it.
No, he's as dead as one can be. It was stated by the authors and himself(sound awkward, but yeah...)
No, he made CC happy already.
No, Nunnaly didn't have any flashbacks, it was just her understanding his doings.

>C.C.'s scar at the base of her heart, this would mean that the Code could only be activated

VV didn't have one. Not when he was immortal nor after Charles took his code. Code transfers apon full-geas user killing a code carrier. It doesn't matter how.

Anyway - this is the wrong thread for that kind of discussion.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-07-08 at 23:29.
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Old 2013-07-08, 06:28   Link #8048
darthfury78
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Originally Posted by konart View Post
Jesus, not this again.
No, you are not getting it.
No, he's as dead as one can be. It was stated by the authors and himself(sound awkward, but yeah...)
No, he made CC happy already.
No, Nunnaly didn't have any flashbacks, it was just her understanding his doings.

>C.C.'s scar at the base of her heart, this would mean that the Code could only be activated

VV didn't have one. Not when he was immortal nor after Charles took his code. Code transfers apon full-geas user killing a code carrier. It doesn't matter how.

Anyway - this is the wrong thread for that kind of discussion.
I am not debating anything. It's the unspoken word if one wants to believe that Lelouch is alive. I never said that Lelouch was alive. But if he was, that might be one of those possible options. Besides, I seriously doubt that any new series dealing with Code Geass is going to pick up from where Season 2 had left off anyway.

Let's all agree that Lelouch's story is finished with Zero's Requiem. If Sunrise wants to bring back Lelouch, then they would have to retell his entire story all over again with a different ending because it would not make any sense to recreate a story from a popular TV show if we all know what the ending will be?

Afterall, Lelouch did kill Clovis in coldblood instead of using him as a puppet informant.
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Old 2013-07-08, 07:18   Link #8049
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Lelouch is dead. I killed him -_-
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Old 2013-07-08, 12:41   Link #8050
wredsa
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I am not debating anything. It's the unspoken word if one wants to believe that Lelouch is alive. I never said that Lelouch was alive. But if he was, that might be one of those possible options. Besides, I seriously doubt that any new series dealing with Code Geass is going to pick up from where Season 2 had left off anyway.

Let's all agree that Lelouch's story is finished with Zero's Requiem. If Sunrise wants to bring back Lelouch, then they would have to retell his entire story all over again with a different ending because it would not make any sense to recreate a story from a popular TV show if we all know what the ending will be?

Afterall, Lelouch did kill Clovis in coldblood instead of using him as a puppet informant.
Please let's take this debate to Generic Discussion thread.

Clovis deserved it ( and probably lot worse ).

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-07-08 at 23:29.
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Old 2013-07-08, 15:11   Link #8051
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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
being alive is not evil, but deceiving billions of people into thinking he is death but still living on is the work of decepticons. Lelouch himself said those who shoot should be ready to be shot at. He wanted to be executed for killing Euphie and Katase.
Katase probably deserved it. Plus, the way Lelouch went about getting to said execution, Zero Requiem, was worse than anything he did before. Euphie would be horrified.

(Yes, this too should be taken to Generic Discussion.)

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-07-08 at 23:29.
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Old 2013-07-08, 17:20   Link #8052
wredsa
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Katase probably deserved it. Plus, the way Lelouch went about getting to said execution, Zero Requiem, was worse than anything he did before. Euphie would be horrified.

(Yes, this too should be taken to Generic Discussion.)
Lelouch only started this "kill all your clanmen who does not follow the World Emperor" manure does not mean that he actually did any evil. It was a self destructive propaganda.

Katase did not deserve to be killed like that.

I am requesting mods to move all our Lelouch related posts to "Code Geass Generic Discussion" thread. MOD EDIT: Done

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-07-08 at 23:30.
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Old 2013-07-08, 17:45   Link #8053
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Lelouch only started this "kill all your clanmen who does not follow the World Emperor" manure does not mean that he actually did any evil. It was a self destructive propaganda.

Katase did not deserve to be killed like that.

I am requesting mods to move all our Lelouch related posts to "Code Geass Generic Discussion" thread.
Whoops, my bad. I confused Katase with whatshisname from the Lake Kawaguchi incident. Katase was killed more possibly because Lelouch saw his window to protect him decreasing, and a tactical gain to be had by exploding his ship. His sin there would be complete dishonesty.

Regarding the ZR, given what C. C. had been saying, he was doing it for real. Not to mention everything else (brainwashing his soldiers and using them as faceless mooks/cannon fodder/human shields/etc., and later blowing up Mt. Fuji).
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Old 2013-07-08, 18:54   Link #8054
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Whoops, my bad. I confused Katase with whatshisname from the Lake Kawaguchi incident. Katase was killed more possibly because Lelouch saw his window to protect him decreasing, and a tactical gain to be had by exploding his ship. His sin there would be complete dishonesty.

Regarding the ZR, given what C. C. had been saying, he was doing it for real. Not to mention everything else (brainwashing his soldiers and using them as faceless mooks/cannon fodder/human shields/etc., and later blowing up Mt. Fuji).
All C.C said is "Lelouch felt guilty using Geass" ( he had been using it mostly to kill opponent soldiers but that means he meant to be shot as he shot using his Geass ) so he implemented Zero Requiem. ( His biggest guilt was Euphie ... if only Orange boy gained Anti-Geass before ).
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Old 2013-07-08, 23:24   Link #8055
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All C.C said is "Lelouch felt guilty using Geass" ( he had been using it mostly to kill opponent soldiers but that means he meant to be shot as he shot using his Geass ) so he implemented Zero Requiem. ( His biggest guilt was Euphie ... if only Orange boy gained Anti-Geass before ).
No, you forget the second to last picture drama, where C. C. said the nobles he executed were within their rights.

Plus, the ZR caused more death, destruction, and Geass abuse than his rebellion did. It was an absolution of guilt in the same way all of Suzaku's idiotic self contradicting death seeking actions earlier on were, in that it was an easy way out. Lelouch was a lot more practical during the rebellion and mostly used geass amongst other extremities due to being low on options because of the oppressive nature of the Britannian Empire.
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Old 2013-07-09, 00:01   Link #8056
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That doesn't exactly make Lelouch's use of Geass and several other actions during the rebellion, as well as their consequences, any less morally repugnant both from his own personal perspective or that of a truly innocent observer. You can say that everything he did as Zero was justified, but the man himself knew his hands had a lot of blood on them.

If anything, he was only able to do ZR because, in addition to the impact of losing people he cared about, Lelouch already considered himself beyond any constructive redemption and worthy of punishment. Unlike Suzaku, however, he did not want to die without first accomplishing his objective of changing the world. Just having Suzaku kill him without that would be meaningless. It's the opposite of death "absolving" him from guilt though: it's basically saying, yes I am guilty and deserve to die, but I can't die before my final plan is concluded and then I'll take all the blame for this.

Man, I really must be bored to be posting about this again.
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Old 2013-07-09, 01:53   Link #8057
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How can you say the rebellion wasn't any less morally repugnant? That's just false equivalency. Here's the thing: his rebellion, destruction aside, was done for a lack of options, yet at the same time yielded positive results along the way, such as the liberation of the Chinese Federation from the corrupt eunuchs along with other nations, and subsequently the eventual creation of the UFN, a legitimate body for the sake of opposing the Britannian empire.

ZR on the other hand, was one of many options Lelouch now had after taking down Charles. On top of that, it involved causing more destruction than the rebellion. Further still, with Schneizel, on top of the likes of Kallen and Xing-ke against him, there was a huge chance he wouldn't be able to finish it anyway.

Besides, if he deserved to die, what about the likes of Villetta and Cornelia?
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Old 2013-07-09, 03:18   Link #8058
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How can you say the rebellion wasn't any less morally repugnant? That's just false equivalency. Here's the thing: his rebellion, destruction aside, was done for a lack of options, yet at the same time yielded positive results along the way, such as the liberation of the Chinese Federation from the corrupt eunuchs along with other nations, and subsequently the eventual creation of the UFN, a legitimate body for the sake of opposing the Britannian empire.
Blame Lelouch himself, who essentially says even in early R2 (and mid-to-late S1, from what I recall) that he was committing evil to defeat a greater evil.

Is evil not morally repugnant? The lesser evil is not an absolute good. Ask the victims or innocent observers what they would say about the morality of such things.

He was granting freedom to the people with one hand and carrying out numerous ethical offenses with the other. The man was (usually) not deluded about the fact that, for all his propaganda and the truth that he did produce good results, his rebellion included lots of evil actions taken for an ostensibly good cause. Which is where the logic of "the ends justify the means" comes in. If the means were absolutely good, there would be no such tension in place.

The real or perceived lack of options does not alter this.

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ZR on the other hand, was one of many options Lelouch now had after taking down Charles. On top of that, it involved causing more destruction than the rebellion. Further still, with Schneizel, on top of the likes of Kallen and Xing-ke against him, there was a huge chance he wouldn't be able to finish it anyway.
To paraphrase Lelouch, even when he was just acting as Zero:

"I am Zero...the man who destroys the world...and creates it anew!"

"Destruction always comes before creation."

etc.

The scale of the destruction was obviously larger when he assumed the role of Emperor Lelouch, though one might well argue the details, but think back to Narita (a miscalculation, yes, but he embraced it after the fact) or even the original Black Rebellion which destroyed large portions of the Tokyo Settlement's surrounding area. Not to mention his co-responsibility for the actual destruction of Tokyo at the hands of the FLEIJA warhead. Calculate how many people had died in those events.

From Lelouch's perspective, he simply applied that same line of thought again.

As for the last part, that's where the other theme repeated numerous times throughout both seasons comes in:

"When Lelouch and Suzaku are together, they can accomplish anything."

Unrealistic and risky? Absolutely, but it's thematically consistent.

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Besides, if he deserved to die, what about the likes of Villetta and Cornelia?
Lelouch either forgave them or didn't care about that. He only chose to deal with his own fate, not theirs.
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Old 2013-07-09, 10:27   Link #8059
npal
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Lelouch either forgave them or didn't care about that. He only chose to deal with his own fate, not theirs.
He's probably talking about how Karma Houdini was generally lavishly employed for a number of irredeemable secondary characters, yet not for Lelouch. Once you go into that territory, justification of moral cause and effect becomes pointless.
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Old 2013-07-09, 10:43   Link #8060
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Without Suzaku's help Lelouch would not achieve World Peace. For one of those reasons ZR was born. Lelouch seemed satisfied enough chilling in the World of C, but then Suzaku came with CC and they intended to stop Schneizel.

All those talk about transgression of Emperor Lelouch is mostly made up. Lelouch did not commit any real crime while being Emperor ( except for chaining up his former allies ).

Lelouch's guilt was using geass and the collateral damage his rebellion caused. Funny thing is even Abraham Lincoln caused collateral damage while saving the African-Americans from slavery.
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