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Old 2013-07-04, 23:31   Link #32481
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Forgery of the Purple Logic's last chapter was scanned some time ago...the culprit was...

Spoiler:


Wish someone would translate it. It seemed like a fun story.
If it was in japanese I'd be happy to translate, .
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Old 2013-07-07, 13:29   Link #32482
Dormin
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I like how there are certain persons who were basically never expected to be the culprit. Even though Nanjo as doctor gets suspected of being accomplice, people like he and Gohda are not considered main culprits very often, at least in many theories, and I haven't heard any person playing the game actually suspecting them to be the main culprit. I have seen pictures of Nanjo wearing Beatrice's dress and the image kind of made me think how he was always treated lightly and even the theories about him killing anyone are mostly considered bad jokes.

On the other hand, persons on the island that don't seemingly have any motive got suspected relatively easily. Maybe the structure of Ryu heavily indicating need for money as a partial motive actually guided the suspicion away from the "obvious" culprits. So in this way, I feel like writing the story in a way that the final revelation about the culprit (at least board) would anticlimactically have been "the murderer was krauss, he totally needed the money" would actually been kind of a successful mindgame.
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Old 2013-07-07, 13:49   Link #32483
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A random thing I felt the need to share - I don't really know much about the Enneagram of Personality, but I happened to stumble upon this and was really struck by how strongly the description resembles Yasu/Beatrice. Does anyone else see what I mean?

EDIT: I find these parts particularly insightful:

Quote:
While it is true that Fours often feel different from others, they do not really want to be alone. They may feel socially awkward or self-conscious, but they deeply wish to connect with people who understand them and their feelings. The “romantics” of the Enneagram, they long for someone to come into their lives and appreciate the secret self that they have privately nurtured and hidden from the world. If, over time, such validation remains out of reach, Fours begin to build their identity around how unlike everyone else they are.
Quote:
Fours typically have problems with a negative self-image and chronically low self-esteem. They attempt to compensate for this by cultivating a Fantasy Self—an idealized self-image which is built up primarily in their imaginations.
Quote:
In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings. When Fours look inward they see a kaleidoscopic, ever-shifting pattern of emotional reactions.
Quote:
One of the biggest challenges Fours face is learning to let go of feelings from the past; they tend to nurse wounds and hold onto negative feelings about those who have hurt them. Indeed, Fours can become so attached to longing and disappointment that they are unable to recognize the many treasures in their lives.
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Old 2013-07-07, 15:53   Link #32484
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
A random thing I felt the need to share - I don't really know much about the Enneagram of Personality, but I happened to stumble upon this and was really struck by how strongly the description resembles Yasu/Beatrice. Does anyone else see what I mean?

EDIT: I find these parts particularly insightful:
Well, it's pretty fitting.
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Old 2013-07-07, 17:52   Link #32485
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Hi, I hope this is the right place for VN questions. I've been rereading Chiru and came across a part in Dawn that confused me. When Kyrie is talking about the hell she was in after Asumu stole Rudolf away, she says it lasted 18 years. Why? Shouldn't it be 12, until Asumu died and Rudolf and Kyrie married?
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Old 2013-07-07, 17:57   Link #32486
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Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie View Post
Hi, I hope this is the right place for VN questions. I've been rereading Chiru and came across a part in Dawn that confused me. When Kyrie is talking about the hell she was in after Asumu stole Rudolf away, she says it lasted 18 years. Why? Shouldn't it be 12, until Asumu died and Rudolf and Kyrie married?
But Asumu "left something behind" after her death that made Kyrie remember her: Battler... Oh the irony
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Old 2013-07-07, 18:15   Link #32487
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
But Asumu "left something behind" after her death that made Kyrie remember her: Battler... Oh the irony
She says it ended though: "I was lucky to be pardoned after just 18 years."
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Old 2013-07-07, 18:37   Link #32488
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Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie View Post
She says it ended though: "I was lucky to be pardoned after just 18 years."
I am not sure, but maybe Rudolph told Kyrie the secret about Battler at that time already. That would also mean that in EP6 we got a hint that could be easily missed about Kyrie being Battlers real mother.
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Old 2013-07-08, 01:19   Link #32489
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Maybe Rudolf was married to Asumu for 6 years before Battler was born? I don't really remember the specifics.
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Old 2013-07-08, 05:35   Link #32490
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So i watched the 9 hour youtube video and now I'm heavily leaning towards Rosatrice theory despite the fact that there are plenty of holes in it. Fact is i hated Yasu/Shannon theory since it's inception. I still find it absolutely stupid how Yasu is switching between multiple personas and killing them off one by one.

Hopefully a few years from now Ryukishi will reveal the truth in an episode or something.
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Last edited by Poetic Justice; 2013-07-08 at 05:48.
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Old 2013-07-08, 06:19   Link #32491
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Urgh, yeah that video has been discussed to death here. You wont find many that subscribe to what it proposes in here though.

e-Yes, Shkanon is dumb, but you simply cannot discard it as the truth given everything that happened in the stories and Our Confessions. They are part of the "reality" of the stories. Whether or not it actually happened in Prime is something else entirely.

The only way I would think that Shkanon wasnt an actual thing was trough Wave theory as one of the possible paths that was collapsed at one point the story and RK07 didn't really do a good job explaining quantum mechanics in the story to justify using it.
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Old 2013-07-08, 06:57   Link #32492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Maybe Rudolf was married to Asumu for 6 years before Battler was born? I don't really remember the specifics.
Kyrie mentions in Episode 3 that Asumu was pregnant when Rudolf married her.
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Old 2013-07-08, 07:09   Link #32493
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Kyries "18 years of hell" ended with the revelation that Battler is actually Kyries' son. I cannot see any other reason.
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Old 2013-07-08, 07:34   Link #32494
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Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
So i watched the 9 hour youtube video and now I'm heavily leaning towards Rosatrice theory despite the fact that there are plenty of holes in it. Fact is i hated Yasu/Shannon theory since it's inception. I still find it absolutely stupid how Yasu is switching between multiple personas and killing them off one by one.

Hopefully a few years from now Ryukishi will reveal the truth in an episode or something.
Yeah, what Cao Ni Ma said. Yasu/Shannon/Kanon on the gameboards is a solution which has problems, certainly, and I can see how people would dislike it and find it stupid, but hating the author's clearly intended solution does not make the solution wrong. Ryukishi's not going to pop out with "Hah! I lied about Yasu, and actually Rosa was Beatrice" in a few years. If Ryukishi had had a better editor working on the second half of the series, maybe he would have been able to explain Shkanontrice in a way more of the audience found satisfying.

It's good when people put effort into making a case for alternatives, though. Knownnomore's theories may be full of gaping holes and fail to provide a credible alternative, but he tried, as a good goat should. 9 hour videos are impressive! It's just, well. In terms of trying to get a theory taken seriously, Shkanontrice may be ridiculous, but Rosatrice is much more ridiculous, and Rosatrice is contrary to Ryukishi's intentions to boot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
The only way I would think that Shkanon wasnt an actual thing was trough Wave theory as one of the possible paths that was collapsed at one point the story and RK07 didn't really do a good job explaining quantum mechanics in the story to justify using it.
Huh, that sounds interesting. It'd be fun if someone made up a more comprehensive Umineko wave collapse Shkanon theory. Even if Ryukishi didn't lay the groundwork well enough for it.
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Old 2013-07-08, 08:36   Link #32495
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Of course that theory can be dismissed out of hand simply for cherry-picking its "facts," particularly from ep7 and ep8. Rosa does make a more compelling culprit than many by nature, but the fact of the matter is that there's just very little to actually suggest she has the necessary background to do what is done to the victims after death. It also has trouble accounting for the truth of Shkanon, which we pretty much have to accept even if we don't like it as a culprit theory.

Essentially a coherent Rosatrice theory would have to:
  • Cite actual dispository evidence of her mystery background and association to Battler.
  • Account for why Shkanon is true (and why it's even happening) but why all the things that point to Shkanon/Yasu as Beatrice are misleading.
  • Explain either how Rosa can be the culprit on all game boards or why Shkanon or someone else is being used as a gameboard culprit to cover for Rosa (and how evidence on the boards actually proves this).
  • Provide a coherent explanation for why neither Eva nor Battler would wish for information of Rosa's involvement to go public, and why Eva would refuse to even tell Ange about it in private.
  • Explain both how ep7 applies to Rosa, why it's presented the way it is, what textual evidence proves it's strictly metaphorical and/or related by second degree to the actual culprit, and why Clair accepts Will's answers.
  • Provide coherent rationalization for how someone as impulsive as Rosa managed to outwit her considerably sharper siblings (she doesn't do so hot in the ep7 Tea Party, for example) and everyone else, while sometimes being dead.
  • Address the additional information provided in Our Confession and the manga that shows a near 1:1 correspondence of Yasu to Beatrice, such as the ep8 manga suggesting Shannon and Beatrice use the same spraypaint trick, or the extra material detailing Beatrice's conversation with Natsuhi about the baby.
  • Oh right, address the baby.
  • Not use any of the information pertaining to Bern's gameboard in ep8 unless it can be demonstrated that it is relevant and all rules from the board are accepted if any rule from the board is used (e.g. if you're going to cite to it, you also have to accept things like Shkanon and George only being able to murder children).
KNM attempts to do some of these things, but falls flat on others or reaches for very flimsy explanations for others (the ep7/ep8 stuff especially). I'm sure it's possible, but it runs up on a lot of issues. Shkanon is basically a case of "stupid, but apparently true." It's understandable why people would look for a better solution; it's easier than accepting that the one we got wasn't good. That doesn't mean that better solution actually exists in the text. In fact, if Rosatrice were true I'd argue it makes the ending of the work even worse, because it fails to address that point and make sense of it in its entirety. At least we got some resolution to the Battler/Yasu thing in ep8.

But hey, if you don't like the answer, write a nine-hour video or fan episode about it. He kinda left the door open for that in Dawn. Then got mad about it later I guess, for some reason.
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Old 2013-07-08, 12:01   Link #32496
gdmcrjunkie
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Kyries "18 years of hell" ended with the revelation that Battler is actually Kyries' son. I cannot see any other reason.
In Episode 6 Rudolf says he still hadn't told them after the 1st twilight. So, I can only think of three explanations:

1. Kyrie somehow found out by herself (although I'd expect her reaction to be more along the lines of "You not only dumped me but also stole my baby?!?" Maybe she has accepted it...)

2. Battler returning home was one of the conditions for her hell to end (maybe because Rudolf and Ange didn't consider their family complete without him there? Doesn't sound like hell to me)

3. "Battler will die here, we'll also get rid of our debt and the three of us will live happily ever after~"

And then there's of course 4. Ryukishi got confused, but I promised myself I wouldn't think that again after I found out Shannon starting to work at Rokkenjima 10 years earlier wasn't a mistake. Either way now I know I didn't misunderstand something simple, thanks
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Old 2013-07-08, 17:22   Link #32497
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
If Ryukishi had had a better editor working on the second half of the series, maybe he would have been able to explain Shkanontrice in a way more of the audience found satisfying.
So in the end we're just supposed to accept that Ryukishi made mistakes if the official explanation is true? Because there are plenty of holes in it too.
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Old 2013-07-08, 18:07   Link #32498
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The man forgets doors exist when he constructs closed rooms. Should anyone be surprise?
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Old 2013-07-08, 19:30   Link #32499
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Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie View Post
In Episode 6 Rudolf says he still hadn't told them after the 1st twilight. So, I can only think of three explanations:

1. Kyrie somehow found out by herself (although I'd expect her reaction to be more along the lines of "You not only dumped me but also stole my baby?!?" Maybe she has accepted it...)
Maybe she looked in a mirror. At least with Ryukishi07's artwork, Battler looks a hell of a lot more like her than Ange does, and Ange is said to resemble her a great deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdmcrjunkie View Post
2. Battler returning home was one of the conditions for her hell to end (maybe because Rudolf and Ange didn't consider their family complete without him there? Doesn't sound like hell to me)
If #1 is true, could well be. Her son doesn't want to be part of her family, and she can't reveal her own relationship without exposing his father's greatest sin....Ehh, probably not.

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3. "Battler will die here, we'll also get rid of our debt and the three of us will live happily ever after~"
If Bern and Featherine know the undisputed truth at the end of EP7, then what the hell is EP8 about, besides paying off the rest of Ryukishi07's mortgage?
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Old 2013-07-08, 21:51   Link #32500
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So in the end we're just supposed to accept that Ryukishi made mistakes if the official explanation is true? Because there are plenty of holes in it too.
Out of curiosity, define "holes." There are a few actual genuine plot holes (like the missing door in ep3 that gets addressed in the manga, and a few character threads that are dropped), but I'm curious what doesn't work otherwise. I mean, we can't even be sure Shannon and Kanon existed separately on a regular basis outside of the stories, and in the stories we can't use the "people would notice" argument because they can be written not to notice as a genre convention.

Thematically, most everything is basically wrapped up. You can not like it (and I don't, personally), but the intent of the author seems clear enough and I can't think of a single reason why the official position cannot be true. It would take an outright contradiction of that nature to really constitute a fatal flaw in the original intention.

Further, even if the original intent appears to fail, that's not proof of deliberate concealment of higher knowledge. That's an easy trap to fall into, but there's no rational reason to assume that absent considerable evidence that there is such knowledge present. Notably, the ending of the story has to be explained in the language of the "hidden story," and wrap it up properly. Otherwise you've just claimed there's another, hidden answer that's wrapped up in an even worse manner than the fake "surface" one. That is, you're saying not merely that the story ends badly, but that it's unworkably pretentious and ends badly.
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