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Old 2013-07-08, 23:06   Link #32501
Poetic Justice
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Out of curiosity, define "holes." There are a few actual genuine plot holes (like the missing door in ep3 that gets addressed in the manga, and a few character threads that are dropped), but I'm curious what doesn't work otherwise. I mean, we can't even be sure Shannon and Kanon existed separately on a regular basis outside of the stories, and in the stories we can't use the "people would notice" argument because they can be written not to notice as a genre convention.
How about the red statement in the linked room murder where it was stated in red that 6 people are dead. And shanon and kanon were stated as different people
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Old 2013-07-09, 03:00   Link #32502
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Out of curiosity, define "holes." There are a few actual genuine plot holes (like the missing door in ep3 that gets addressed in the manga, and a few character threads that are dropped), but I'm curious what doesn't work otherwise. I mean, we can't even be sure Shannon and Kanon existed separately on a regular basis outside of the stories, and in the stories we can't use the "people would notice" argument because they can be written not to notice as a genre convention.
Out of curiosity, which part of the manga addresses the ep3 missing door?
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Old 2013-07-09, 06:23   Link #32503
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How about the red statement in the linked room murder where it was stated in red that 6 people are dead. And shanon and kanon were stated as different people
It has to do with the definition of the word "people" in the game. The same way they can claim that "Battler" was dead in EP8. Its also how how they can claim Kanon/Shannon to be dead regardless of the episode really.

Its how the "author" of the stories actually feels about it. Or in case of RK07 its a backhanded trick to try and deflect suspicion from them since by his own admission the servants were getting lots of suspicion at the time.
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Old 2013-07-09, 07:27   Link #32504
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As I've said before, the arguments used by Rosatrice supporters to claim that Shkanontrice is "impossible" are all built on the assumption that the red truth must be taken absolutely literally, and that terms like 'people' must have a single consistent definition that applies to every single red statement made throughout the series. KNM's entire video series is built on this assumption, but I really don't know where it comes from. There's no reason to think that Ryukishi is particularly concerned with being absolutely logically consistent, and the whole point of a lot of Chiru was that he wants the readers to look for the bigger picture, the "heart", rather than becoming preoccupied with little details in closed room puzzles and coming to clear, unambiguous definitions for everything.

I honestly don't understand what it is people even see in Rosatrice in the first place. Even if they do believe that Shkanontrice is "full of holes", by the same standards Rosatrice must be as well. Given a choice between two explanations that are full of holes, it would make much more sense to take the one that's thematically consistent and makes for a much better story, as well as a much more interesting and three-dimensional culprit. But I think the source of a lot of this confusion is probably simply that a lot of Rosatrice supporters just don't remember the series that well when they watch KNM's videos, and have to rely on his own extremely biased summaries to remind them of the details.

To anyone who seriously believes in Rosatrice, I'd ask them to just reread the second half of EP7 with KNM's theory in mind. I genuinely feel that it would be completely impossible for anyone to do that and come out of it at the end still thinking that Rosatrice makes any sense.
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Old 2013-07-09, 08:12   Link #32505
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On the positive note it seems that EP 8 manga version is getting even more awesome as it looks like the goats, while facing Dlanor and Will, are giving more theories than just the ones we got in the visual novel. The pictures implies the goat tried to deal with some mysteries in... Ep 2 I think as there's Battler with Rosa facing Natsuhi's door all covered in paint and there's also the chapel door closed with a key. There's also Shannon's death always in Ep 2. Maybe there's Ep 1 as there's a hand picking up or placing down a letter behind Jessica and Battler's back, and I think they talk about who gave Maria the umbrella. Also a bunch of theories on Ep 3 and 4 I think, expecially Nanjo's death in Ep 3 and Kumasawa's and Gohda's death in Ep 4?

At least those are the pictures shown although I can't read the dialogues and some other pictures aren't really clear.

Anyway I'm pretty excited with it as it could provide even more hints! Though Dlanor and Will shot down all the theories, of course so hints are likely solely on what's wrong, not on what's right... but well, I seem to remember I wasn't the only one who wanted to see the goats trying to address the mysteries in Ep 8, was I?
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Old 2013-07-09, 08:36   Link #32506
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Originally Posted by Poetic Justice View Post
How about the red statement in the linked room murder where it was stated in red that 6 people are dead. And shanon and kanon were stated as different people
I agree that's a cheat, but it's clear where he intended to go with it. Personalities or characters or whatever are people and a person can die with their body still being alive. Whether you like it or not (and I don't), it applies to Battler in ep8 and "Battler" is biologically alive in some form. If you're going to take all red as literal and all death as permanent biological death, then Toya isn't Battler at all and how does that work exactly? Likewise if everything that has the weight of red truth is literally true in all games everywhere then Jessica survived and George is only capable of killing Maria.

Certainly you could argue that amnesia and killing off a character you're portraying are different, and I'd agree with you, but it's not a hole if we look at what the author was claiming. It's just a very poorly-defined exploit of a rule nobody knew existed because he didn't tell us first. The simpler explanation for that is bad writing to cover up something that was more obvious than he thought it was going to be.

Now I would ask you, which is more reasonable: That he did this deliberately despite almost exclusively providing evidence, particularly in Chiru, of Shkanon/Yasu as the core of Beatrice solely to mislead you from the "real truth;" or that he just isn't a very good writer and had to cheat to temporarily deflect suspicion from a theory that people were pretty much aware of as early as ep2? Shkanon wasn't hated so much because it wasn't supported by anything as because people didn't want it to be true, because it appeared blatantly obvious that it was possible from the outset of the story and seemed a phenomenally stupid idea (and still is, but what can you do at this point?).
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Old 2013-07-09, 09:16   Link #32507
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If I've to be honest I also didn't like ShKanon because it should have been an obvious solution for the poeple on Rokkenjima too... and one that requires an insane amount of accomplices and early preparations. A solution that should have been considered by Toya's readers and something over which the police would have investigated.
It also felt like cheating because no one mentioned/noticed that Shannon and Kanon's faces, despite them not being related, resemble each other SO VERY MUCH they could as well be the same person...

But yes, ShKanon is the intended solution. It's interesting how Ep 7 manga version dealt with Yasu becoming Beatrice and leaving Shannon behind.
Previously Shannon was always seen as older and dressed as a maid even when Yasu is in common clothes. However when Yasu expresses his wish to become a witch Shannon is dressed as her (the same happens in a flashback in the same chapter about Yasu talking of how she wanted to become like her) (chap 25). And, of course, she'll later look younger (chap 26). Also interesting is how in chap 22, when all the servants are standing in line with Genji saying he'd found some keys, sometimes Shannon is in the line with the others, just after Yasu, sometimes she's not (although it could look like she was just hidden from the view as she's close to Yasu bits of her should at least be visible...).
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Old 2013-07-09, 13:32   Link #32508
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Frankly my only problem with Shkanon is that he went all David Cage and hurt his own narrative in order to protect his twist as long as possible. If he just let Shkanon exist on its own merits without working so hard to conceal it once it was guessed, it'd of been fine to me.

And considering my personal canon for Umineko, his proper response should've been "Yea, Shkanon. BUT YASU'S BODY DIDN'T COMMIT MURDER OOOOOO~~"
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Old 2013-07-09, 18:16   Link #32509
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About Kyrie's 18 years thing, I've always thought:

1. Ryukushi made a mistake, and just meant '12'
2. Kyrie was involved with Rudolf at least 6 years before he married Asumu
3. EP3 and EP6 are gameboards where he confessed to her
4. Kyrie is speaking with much more Meta than she probably should, in the sense that everything ends for her in 1986
5. Battler's return to the family in 1986 is some kind of symbolic, "my place over even Asumu's memory in this household is complete" thing for her

I tend to roll with door #2, since Asumu wasn't even her first rival for Rudolf's attention in the first place, just the first one she couldn't shoo off easily.

Regarding Shkanon's face, I of course agree with the majority ; and it's the fact that it could have been resolved with even just a few throwaway lines that makes it so grating. Off the top of my head:
1. Shannon and Kanon do, in fact, claim to be blood related
2. Kanon started working just after the 1985 conference, so most of the relatives had never seen him before
3. Kanon works almost entirely overnight shifts or taking care of the obscenely large garden, so he's barely around people to be remembered much in the first place
4. Maybe Shannon's a girly girl who's known for wearing a lot of makeup

It reminds me of when I was reading And Then There Were None, and
Spoiler for spoilers for And Then There Were None:
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Old 2013-07-09, 18:58   Link #32510
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Or, for a number 5:

People's ability to recognize faces is vastly overrated, and Shannon's headgear, hairstyle, servant attire, height and mannerisms go a long way towards distinguishing her from the creepy quiet boy in the garden. Hey, it works for Clark Kent, right?
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Old 2013-07-09, 22:47   Link #32511
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Originally Posted by MysteriousLurkerGuy View Post
Or, for a number 5:

People's ability to recognize faces is vastly overrated, and Shannon's headgear, hairstyle, servant attire, height and mannerisms go a long way towards distinguishing her from the creepy quiet boy in the garden. Hey, it works for Clark Kent, right?
Everyone in the family suffers from extremely severe myopia, except for Maria. This is why Maria can recognize various people as Beatrice, because she's not freaking blind.
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Old 2013-07-10, 02:18   Link #32512
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Regarding the often big discussion on how well or not Ryukishi wrote, I reread Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation today, where in his first chapter he talks a lot about the quality of the real, reality and hyperreal in (post)modern society...and it really made me question whether Ryukishi had read it, considering that some aspects can almost be directly copy-pasted into an Umineko scenario.

I'm planning to do my first video-critique on this topic, but I wanted to quote one part here, which really jumped out to me the most:

Quote:
Organize a fake holdup. Verify that your weapons are harmless, and take the most trustworthy hostage, so that no human life will be in danger (or one lapses into the criminal). Demand a ransom, and make it so that the operation creates as much commotion as possible - in short, remain close to the "truth," in order to test the reaction of the apparatus to a perfect simulacrum. You won't be able to do it: the network of artificial signs will become inextricably mixed up with real elements (a policeman will really fire on sight; a client of the bank will faint and die of a heart attack; one will actually pay you the phony ransom), in short, you will immediately find yourself once again, without wishing it, in the real, one of whose functions is precisely to devour any attempt at simulation, to reduce everything to the real - that is, to the established order itself, well before institutions and justice come into play.

This is certainly why order always opts for the real. When in doubt, it always prefers this hypothesis (as in the army one prefers to take the simulator for a real madman). But this becomes more and more difficult, because if it is practically impossible to isolate the process of simulation, through the force of inertia of the real that surrounds us, the opposite is also true (and this reversibility itself is part of the apparatus of simulation and the impotence of power): namely, it is now impossible to isolate the process of the real, or to prove the real.
It is something that in terms of Umineko can be seen as a plot-internal process on the island, as well as one concerning the forgeries, but also concerning us (the reader). It is impossible to discern the real of the events that happened on Rokkenjima, from the murder case that is presented to us through fiction and to the characters on the island through presentation. Yasu's plan was forced to fail because in the light of the option between threatening real and harmless fiction, people will choose to believe in the threatening real and attempt to protect themselves from it.
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Old 2013-07-10, 16:50   Link #32513
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
About Kyrie's 18 years thing, I've always thought:

1. Ryukushi made a mistake, and just meant '12'
2. Kyrie was involved with Rudolf at least 6 years before he married Asumu
3. EP3 and EP6 are gameboards where he confessed to her
4. Kyrie is speaking with much more Meta than she probably should, in the sense that everything ends for her in 1986
5. Battler's return to the family in 1986 is some kind of symbolic, "my place over even Asumu's memory in this household is complete" thing for her
Also, it can be Rudolf is lying. He knows it's all a game and he has already told Kyrie and possibly Battler but telling he didn't have them the time to tell the truth makes the scene so much more dramatic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Regarding Shkanon's face, I of course agree with the majority ; and it's the fact that it could have been resolved with even just a few throwaway lines that makes it so grating. Off the top of my head:
1. Shannon and Kanon do, in fact, claim to be blood related
2. Kanon started working just after the 1985 conference, so most of the relatives had never seen him before
3. Kanon works almost entirely overnight shifts or taking care of the obscenely large garden, so he's barely around people to be remembered much in the first place
4. Maybe Shannon's a girly girl who's known for wearing a lot of makeup
Hum... If I'm not wrong Shannon said she tried make up once but messed up.

And you should add also a 5 which is "Jessica is rarely on the island and she barely knows Shannon so when she'll see Kanon and fall in love with him she totally won't connect him to her childhood friend Shannon with whom she had friendly chats each time she can and that she's trying to hook up with her cousin, George."

Because really, Jessica looks really dumb for not noticing the boy she's crushing on is the friend she's trying to pair up with her cousin.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It reminds me of when I was reading And Then There Were None, and
Spoiler for spoilers for And Then There Were None:
Spoiler for spoilers for And Then There Were None:


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It is something that in terms of Umineko can be seen as a plot-internal process on the island, as well as one concerning the forgeries, but also concerning us (the reader). It is impossible to discern the real of the events that happened on Rokkenjima, from the murder case that is presented to us through fiction and to the characters on the island through presentation. Yasu's plan was forced to fail because in the light of the option between threatening real and harmless fiction, people will choose to believe in the threatening real and attempt to protect themselves from it.
Well, this would remind me of the old theory of someone having fun organizing a mystery game and someone else taking it for real and killing people like it sort of happen in Ep 6.
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Old 2013-07-10, 23:17   Link #32514
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
There's no reason to think that Ryukishi is particularly concerned with being absolutely logically consistent, and the whole point of a lot of Chiru was that he wants the readers to look for the bigger picture, the "heart", rather than becoming preoccupied with little details in closed room puzzles and coming to clear, unambiguous definitions for everything.
Absolutely agree here. To this end, I also believe that the best Umineko theories are the ones that best explain the WHITE text and the various magical allusions that I've brought up recently. Even though a lot of the white text and magic scenes may not have physically occurred on the gameboard, they are nonetheless extremely significant in terms of providing clues regarding the true "heart" of the culprit/mystery. In this respect, every Rosatrice theory fails miserably and deviates so ridiculously away from what R07 wanted us to understand regarding the "heart" of Chiru that it seems outright disrespectful to not only the series but also to the author as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One idea regarding Umineko that has always intrigued me was the theory first proposed by Kylon99 in this post here regarding the loss of self-identity following traumatic brain injuries. According to this theory, a lot of Yasu/Beatrice's actions can be considered under a completely new (and certainly a far less sinister) light, in which Yasu's lack of self-identity as a single sentient being (i.e. Lion) caused her to only be able to express herself via the three personas that eventually emerged. As a result, there is no single "Yasu" persona behind the curtains pulling the strings for Shkanontrice, but rather a series of subconscious action that had to be performed by Yasu's physical body in order to sustain the continued existences of these personas. In essence, these existences are governed by an entirely separate set of rules (i.e. the same ones governing "magic") that Yasu had no choice but to follow in order to keep them alive, such as making sure to prevent or avoid any situations that demanded the simultaneous presence of two or more of her personas. The reason for Shannon's freakout during her first meeting with Will can be explained by the possibility that Yasu's mind is just unable to process Will's seemingly innocuous request to see Shkanon simultaneously. For Yasu, the loss of Shannon, Kanon, or Beatrice is equivalent to the loss of a significant part of "self" since she honestly has no other outlet to express herself except for these three.

Another possibility to consider under this theory is that the various episodes written by Yasu may have been a way for her to carry out the Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) that Kylon99 also referred to in his discussion of the "chessboard" analogy. According to this analogy, the Yasu's personas can be considered as various "pieces" on the board in significant conflict with each other and that Yasu's stories can be considered as an expression of her struggle to embrace the "gameboard" itself rather than a particular "piece" of the gameboard. Only when she is able to identify with the "gameboard" will she finally be able to accept all of her personas as part of her unified "self", recovering the self-identity that had been previously lost due to trauma.

Finally, perhaps one of the biggest consequences of this theory is that it paints Beatrice's ultimate riddle, "Who am I?" (introduced at the end of EP4), in a completely new light. Rather than Beatrice knowing the answer to that riddle and testing Battler to solve it, Beatrice herself may have been just as tortured by this riddle as Battler had been and that the riddle may not have been intended as a "challenge" to Battler but rather as a desperate plea begging him to recover her lost self-identity.

Anyway, I've always considered this theory very intriguing even though it doesn't necessarily preclude other Shkanontrice theories. Nonetheless, it's been giving me so much more to think about as I reread the series that it's almost like reading it for the first time again.
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Old 2013-07-11, 09:40   Link #32515
Renall
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Well, this would remind me of the old theory of someone having fun organizing a mystery game and someone else taking it for real and killing people like it sort of happen in Ep 6.
The problem is that we have no real motive for someone doing this. Most people don't normally look at a fake game and go "You know, I could use this opportunity to really murder them." Especially without gain; we don't know that the game involved the adults or anyone else seeing where the gold was or that the bomb exists to cover up crimes, so if they never knew about that then they have no way of knowing for sure that killing anyone will even get them anything.

I think the point haguruma is referencing is this: If someone not "in on it" sees a bunch of murder game stuff happening, what are they going to think? Will they correctly guess it's all a game, or will they take the more reasonable step of thinking it's real? If they do think it's real, what's the most reasonable reaction? If I think someone is murdering everybody, I will act to defend myself and my family.

This is a way to have something premeditated that isn't a crime - the murder game - and have a crime occur, yet not have a single person actually be culpable for a criminal mental state. In fact, it's just about the only way. Essentially Yasu creates a murder mystery for Battler, but someone is not aware that she's done so... possibly Battler himself, possibly just one of the adults not chosen to be an "accomplice" or "victim." If you look at the message bottles, you can kind of see what scenarios function well: Probably the single smoothest scenario is when all seven adults are "in on it," if we pretend the murders are fake in Turn. The worst case is when the servants are the only "victims" of the First Twilight, in Banquet.

This suggests to me that Yasu didn't account for one of the adults probably, as I don't think Battler would kill somebody for real even in self-defense bar some particularly strange scenario. If one of the adults, however, were to think this was all real and get paranoid, they could kill people out of a wholly reasonable fear that the murders are actually happening and they need to kill the murderer and any accomplices to save themselves and anyone who is left. The only way the adults would think this is if they were left out as accomplices. In short, Yasu fucked up by not getting everybody but Battler in on things. Or she did, and Battler is the one who screwed up somehow... but he'd have to have screwed up really badly.
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Old 2013-07-11, 15:19   Link #32516
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Going off that idea. What if Yasu got everyone involved except for the cousins and perhaps told the adults that whichever one of the cousins solved the mystery would become the next head. Then what if George figured out that all the adults and servants were involved(And at the time Shannon's death was already faked but he thought it was real) and he decided to get revenge and kill them all.
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Old 2013-07-12, 21:18   Link #32517
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The problem is that we have no real motive for someone doing this. Most people don't normally look at a fake game and go "You know, I could use this opportunity to really murder them." Especially without gain; we don't know that the game involved the adults or anyone else seeing where the gold was or that the bomb exists to cover up crimes, so if they never knew about that then they have no way of knowing for sure that killing anyone will even get them anything.
Maybe I've explained myself poorly. I meant someone organized a mystery game didn't warn the others it was just a game and someone else believes murders are real and ends up killing people for real in paranoia or believing is self defence or anything.

Yes, in EP 6 meta Erika said she killed people on purpose but piece Erika might have done that in fear one of them was a culprit and was hiding among the others. After all piece Erika has no reason to kill other than to make sure they're really dead...

Alternatively, the game was organized but something went wrong and someone died (maybe Krauss killed himself in attempt to save his family's honor as he feared his actions could be discovered and either Natsuhi hid his suicide letter or it ended up being misplaced). People believed he'd been killed taking advantage of the game and go paranoid.

And let's not forget people was hiding Kinzo's death. What if someone finds one of Kinzo's bones or whatever remains of him?
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Old 2013-07-18, 12:03   Link #32518
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More interesting info from the manga.
Ep 8 confirms that in the future people knew about Battler being Kyrie's son as the police and the media investigated and the doctor tattled it out. Ange knew as well. Ange assumes Beatrice found out through Genji, implying that Rudolf might have told at least to Kinzo. Of course this can be an attempt to fix the logic of the fantasy background but while technically Yasu's knowledge wasn't required for EP4 as that one is written by Tohya and, being a person of the future, he knows the truth about Battler's birth, in EP1 there was also a hint about something Rudolf had to say something to Kyrie and Battler and EP 1 was written by Yasu so Yasu might have been aware of the truth.

Also I've been wondering on what we were discussing time ago when Kyrie said she'd been released from her hell after 18 years. As EP 8 implies she was told the truth maybe that's just what it meant, that, despite what Rudolf said, she knew the truth and Rudolf lied or that he didn't have the chance to tell the truth to Battler only (in EP 8 he's not there to listen to
the truth).

Rudolf said that, according to him Asumu probably guessed the truth although she loved Battler like a mother.

An important difference is that Rudolf said he switched the babies because he was afraid his father and Kyrie would press him into abandoning Asumu... and he didn't want to leave her... although since he felt guilty for stealing her baby to Kyrie, he decided also to always protect her. He also said if both babies had survived he planned to take care of both babies and mothers as he believed he had the money to do so.

In short the manga is softer with Asumu. The novel says:
That woman wasn't anywhere near as generous and accepting as she looked. ......There's a chance she figured it out.
while the manga says:
She looked composed and was unexpectedly sharp so perhalps she noticed.

and shoes that Rudolf had feelings for Kyrie also
And like this , officially, the child of my legal wife was born and the child of my mistress died. In exchange I made a vow to protect you as much as I could, since you had your child taken away as a result of this...
a thing that's not in the visual novel:
"I was better off financially back then. I was young, and I didn't give a damn about what lengths I went to. ......I threatened the hospital with money......and switched your kid with Asumu's."
If Kyrie had a child, Rudolf would have two households to worry about.
However, if Kyrie had a stillbirth and the child who survived was Asumu's, that would settle everything.
......The stillbirth might even have given him a chance to break off his relationship with Kyrie.


In a way there's a hint in how Kanon and Shanon faked being dead. They said since the game requires to say 'found you' if one is found they thought to scare them not to say it so they technically wouldn't be discovered and could hid some other place.

You can see it as a reference to how Umineko handled certain things.

Also, the duel between the two, that's never solved in the visual novel was to see who Ange would have exposed first but they're exposed together so their duel is a draw and they said that had to be expected from them.

Other hints like persuading to open a chained door by pretending to be someone trustworthy were already discussed but here Rosa confirmed she bought Sakutarou and didn't handmade him.
Also Rosa realizes that telling Maria Sakutarou was dead, in fact a remake of what her siblings did to her. Interesting enough when she has the bunny talking she has him asking if he can become Sakutarou's friend as to imply Rosa doesn't consider Sakutarou dead anymore.

As this was a requisite to revive the real Sakutarou maybe it's a hint that Rosa repaired it regretting what she did?
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Old 2013-07-18, 13:24   Link #32519
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I'm loving the EP8 manga
The vessel that allowed to us to exist in this world is only one
I wonder what Rosatricers response to that line would be. Speaking of Rosa, I really like here scene with maria.

Also in the last two chapters of EP5 manga during the discussion about love Battler talks about his first love and how they started dating someone else and you see a silhouette of George and Shannon in the background. It's interesting to see what Battler thought of his old relationship with Shannon.
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Old 2013-07-18, 13:33   Link #32520
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Also in the last two chapters of EP5 manga during the discussion about love Battler talks about his first love and how they started dating someone else and you see a silhouette of George and Shannon in the background. It's interesting to see what Battler thought of his old relationship with Shannon.
This is actually a CONFIRMATION that Battler REALLY cared for Shannon back then and didn't just joke around when giving that promise. One could have dismissed the "first love" not meaning Shannon at all, but after that scene in the manga we can be quite sure about it now.
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