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Old 2013-07-09, 14:25   Link #8061
Xander
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
He's probably talking about how Karma Houdini was generally lavishly employed for a number of irredeemable secondary characters, yet not for Lelouch. Once you go into that territory, justification of moral cause and effect becomes pointless.
The thing is, I respectfully disagree. That's not how I look at it, because I think that's a dead-end argument and misses the core of the issue. Which is Lelouch himself.

Lelouch voluntarily chose to embrace punishment. I disagree with his views, but I understand them. For better or for worse, the other characters weren't going to do that.
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Old 2013-07-09, 17:08   Link #8062
npal
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
The thing is, I respectfully disagree. That's not how I look at it, because I think that's a dead-end argument and misses the core of the issue. Which is Lelouch himself.

Lelouch voluntarily chose to embrace punishment. I disagree with his views, but I understand them. For better or for worse, the other characters weren't going to do that.
A poor choice as far as storytelling goes, if you ask me. We all know reality doesn't care about retribution or justice, that's not really how you make a good story end from where I stand. I believe the whole R2 and ZR in particular are a case of poor storytelling, and one of the problems was that karma houdini issue. I consider most of the cast who are left behind irredeemable, some more than Lelouch, so if Lelouch didn't fake the whole thing, ZR looks like a "bad guys win, epic trolling" ending, a thing I wouldn't value in any conceivable story.

I don't disagree with Lelouch that much. I might find the whole ZR plan flawed to the point of being blissfully retarded in its supposed result (peace, after all that, with these people left alive and in charge, seriously), but I don't doubt Lelouch, besides doing something nice in the end, may indeed have wanted to die for his own reasons, an acceptable outcome after all the things he's done. I'm also pretty aware that there was no way the other characters would punish themselves for anything, such as they are. That doesn't make it any better really. Of course, if Lelouch faked the whole thing, that would be another matter.

You seem to believe otherwise, so I guess we can't really do much about it.
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Old 2013-07-09, 19:40   Link #8063
wredsa
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
ZR looks like a "bad guys win, epic trolling" ending, a thing I wouldn't value in any conceivable story.
It is not quite bad guys win but some bad guys redeemed after going through ordeals themselves ( like Cornelia ), however Schneizel got the short end of the stick. He had the worst outcome of all ( being a doll for Zero ).
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Old 2013-07-09, 23:31   Link #8064
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Blame Lelouch himself, who essentially says even in early R2 (and mid-to-late S1, from what I recall) that he was committing evil to defeat a greater evil.

Is evil not morally repugnant? The lesser evil is not an absolute good. Ask the victims or innocent observers what they would say about the morality of such things.

He was granting freedom to the people with one hand and carrying out numerous ethical offenses with the other. The man was (usually) not deluded about the fact that, for all his propaganda and the truth that he did produce good results, his rebellion included lots of evil actions taken for an ostensibly good cause. Which is where the logic of "the ends justify the means" comes in. If the means were absolutely good, there would be no such tension in place.

The real or perceived lack of options does not alter this.
Allow me to counter with the following: All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Lelouch would never succeed by playing fair, and any efforts would amount to naught, basically tantamount to doing nothing.

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To paraphrase Lelouch, even when he was just acting as Zero:

"I am Zero...the man who destroys the world...and creates it anew!"

"Destruction always comes before creation."

etc.

The scale of the destruction was obviously larger when he assumed the role of Emperor Lelouch, though one might well argue the details, but think back to Narita (a miscalculation, yes, but he embraced it after the fact) or even the original Black Rebellion which destroyed large portions of the Tokyo Settlement's surrounding area. Not to mention his co-responsibility for the actual destruction of Tokyo at the hands of the FLEIJA warhead. Calculate how many people had died in those events.
The FLEIJA warhead was practically Schneizel's doing, orchestrated against him. Besides, Lelouch allowed Schneizel to set Damocles in motion as part of the gambit.

Another thing, Tokyo Settlement destruction <<<<<<<< Mt. Fuji destruction.

Quote:
From Lelouch's perspective, he simply applied that same line of thought again.

As for the last part, that's where the other theme repeated numerous times throughout both seasons comes in:

"When Lelouch and Suzaku are together, they can accomplish anything."

Unrealistic and risky? Absolutely, but it's thematically consistent.



Lelouch either forgave them or didn't care about that. He only chose to deal with his own fate, not theirs.
He only ran away from the duty of helping with the reconstruction of the world and not caused as many deaths by taking another route to world peace.

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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
Without Suzaku's help Lelouch would not achieve World Peace. For one of those reasons ZR was born. Lelouch seemed satisfied enough chilling in the World of C, but then Suzaku came with CC and they intended to stop Schneizel.

All those talk about transgression of Emperor Lelouch is mostly made up. Lelouch did not commit any real crime while being Emperor ( except for chaining up his former allies ).

Lelouch's guilt was using geass and the collateral damage his rebellion caused. Funny thing is even Abraham Lincoln caused collateral damage while saving the African-Americans from slavery.
Lelouch caused less collateral damage and geass usage during the rebellion than the ZR. And if you think he didn't commit any real crime, you might want to check out the 2nd to last picture drama (Turn 22.05).

Lelouch could have also achieved world peace without Suzaku's interference at key moments: keeping Nunnally in Britannia's grip, ready to be used against him as a pawn, the 2nd fight over Tokyo where he refused to back down even though he knew he was outclassed, resulting in FLEIJA going off.

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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
It is not quite bad guys win but some bad guys redeemed after going through ordeals themselves ( like Cornelia ), however Schneizel got the short end of the stick. He had the worst outcome of all ( being a doll for Zero ).
Cornelia was WORSE than Lelouch ever was during the rebellion, and had been at it for much longer. She razed a ghetto of innocents for pete's sake. Never really atoned or repented for her barbaric racism. Just read a plausible fanfic scene where a Saitama refugee encounters her in the infirmary where she is recovering from Schneizel's bullets, and threatens to kill her as payback for her family.
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Old 2013-07-10, 02:18   Link #8065
npal
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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
It is not quite bad guys win but some bad guys redeemed after going through ordeals themselves ( like Cornelia ), however Schneizel got the short end of the stick. He had the worst outcome of all ( being a doll for Zero ).
I don't recall Cornelia being in any kind of predicament, not sure since it's been ages. As for Schneizel, Schneizel was who he was, no trying to justify everything depending on the side he's in (his viewpoint was what it was till the end), no heel face turn. And indeed, he did get the short end of the stick. The people left in charge aren't any better. Nunnaly aside, I consider them worse than Schneizel. I wouldn't have pardoned Schneizel, but I'd certainly have given him a better end, although I'm pretty sure some people might have seen the whole thing as allowing Schneizel to live. Cornelia, Ohgi, Viletta, the black knights, the britannian knights... Most don't deserve what they got. They showed no sign of remorse, they paid for nothing and just reap the benefits of ZR when they, too, were part of the problem.
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Old 2013-07-10, 02:26   Link #8066
wredsa
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
I don't recall Cornelia being in any kind of predicament, not sure since it's been ages. As for Schneizel, Schneizel was who he was, no trying to justify everything depending on the side he's in (his viewpoint was what it was till the end), no heel face turn. And indeed, he did get the short end of the stick. The people left in charge aren't any better. Nunnaly aside, I consider them worse than Schneizel. I wouldn't have pardoned Schneizel, but I'd certainly have given him a better end, although I'm pretty sure some people might have seen the whole thing as allowing Schneizel to live. Cornelia, Ohgi, Viletta, the black knights, the britannian knights... Most don't deserve what they got. They showed no sign of remorse, they paid for nothing and just reap the benefits of ZR when they, too, were part of the problem.
Cornelia lost her beloved sister, Ougi got shot by Viletta. Viletta missed her chance to be a noble and felt guilty shooting Ougi, etc. Cornelia was shot by Schneizel. See everyone got punished somewhat for their crime. Now all they have to do is not mess up ZR and help Lelouch's peace plan come to fruition.
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Old 2013-07-10, 02:42   Link #8067
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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
Cornelia lost her beloved sister, Ougi got shot by Viletta. Viletta missed her chance to be a noble and felt guilty shooting Ougi, etc. Cornelia was shot by Schneizel. See everyone got punished somewhat for their crime. Now all they have to do is not mess up ZR and help Lelouch's peace plan come to fruition.
Ohgi and Villetta got a better end out of the deal, even after screwing Lelouch over. And Villetta was a baroness for helping catch Lelouch and watching him on behalf of Britannia. Cornelia getting shot by Schneizel and losing Euphie does not make up for what she did while colonizing other nations and killing innocents. Besides, Euphie's death was also felt hard by Lelouch, who also lost Shirley, and he ended up dead.
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Old 2013-07-10, 03:36   Link #8068
Xander
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
A poor choice as far as storytelling goes, if you ask me. We all know reality doesn't care about retribution or justice, that's not really how you make a good story end from where I stand. I believe the whole R2 and ZR in particular are a case of poor storytelling, and one of the problems was that karma houdini issue. I consider most of the cast who are left behind irredeemable, some more than Lelouch, so if Lelouch didn't fake the whole thing, ZR looks like a "bad guys win, epic trolling" ending, a thing I wouldn't value in any conceivable story.
Ultimately, I'd say that sounds like a matter of personal preference rather than an objective obligation of the show.

Most of the survivors are misguided at best but still good people at the end of the day. Other than Schneizel, who was forcefully redeemed in practice, I don't sincerely think anyone else is truly irredeemable. No, not even the two surviving characters I really happen to dislike (guess who!) are necessarily forever irredeemable despite their selfishness.

Plus I find the idea that the bad guys "won" quite preposterous, and not applicable, on multiple levels.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Allow me to counter with the following: All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Lelouch would never succeed by playing fair, and any efforts would amount to naught, basically tantamount to doing nothing.
Yes, but it's precisely his willingness to act that pushes Lelouch from just being a good man to...a good man who cannot claim to have a clean conscience anymore. All for the sake of results, but no matter how admirable they are...he knows very well his miracles and his contributions to society were partially built on a castle of lies with a moat of blood. There's no arguing that much.

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The FLEIJA warhead was practically Schneizel's doing, orchestrated against him. Besides, Lelouch allowed Schneizel to set Damocles in motion as part of the gambit.
Of course, but Lelouch shares at least part of the blame too for not taking Suzaku's warning seriously, especially when the Knight of Seven isn't usually the kind to bluff.

The other examples -and others I've left unsaid- still continue to apply.

But I will admit Lelouch seems to have miscalculated about that last part.

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Another thing, Tokyo Settlement destruction <<<<<<<< Mt. Fuji destruction.
Probably, though technically that's uncertain given the lack of figures for Mt. Fuji, but you can definitely count it as a form of escalation from his Narita operation.

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He only ran away from the duty of helping with the reconstruction of the world and not caused as many deaths by taking another route to world peace.
I suppose a cynical viewer could apply the Stalin quote here: one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

In the end Lelouch wasn't quite that far gone, since that's more Schneizel's logic in truth, but it seems he did see himself as already too tainted by blood to suddenly turn back to the light. Instead, he adds more blood and more hate to his list of sins. What you propose is more reasonable, sure, but for Lelouch living on to enjoy the world would be running away from his own twisted sense of ethics. He wouldn't say "I did a lot of horrible things, but if I clean my name and help rebuild the world it'll all be fine!"

Quote:
Lelouch caused less collateral damage and geass usage during the rebellion than the ZR.
Less but not insignificant by any means when you take everything into account, especially not for Lelouch.

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Cornelia was WORSE than Lelouch ever was during the rebellion, and had been at it for much longer. She razed a ghetto of innocents for pete's sake. Never really atoned or repented for her barbaric racism. Just read a plausible fanfic scene where a Saitama refugee encounters her in the infirmary where she is recovering from Schneizel's bullets, and threatens to kill her as payback for her family.
I know you don't see things this way, but even if that hypothetical refugee killed her, she probably wouldn't suffer as much as living on without Euphemia and knowing that her beloved sister will be remembered as a yet another murderous Britannian nutcase.
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Old 2013-07-12, 19:26   Link #8069
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by wredsa View Post
Lelouch did not commit any real crime while being Emperor ( except for chaining up his former allies )..
I won't call that guilt since he done that to save them
all name allied >>> in prison or MIA>>> all soldiers= with mask
so people can only hate Lelouch
( after he been killed == no one will want to kill them for helping Lelouch since they are no longer on his side)
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Old 2013-07-13, 13:40   Link #8070
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Ultimately, I'd say that sounds like a matter of personal preference rather than an objective obligation of the show.

Most of the survivors are misguided at best but still good people at the end of the day. Other than Schneizel, who was forcefully redeemed in practice, I don't sincerely think anyone else is truly irredeemable. No, not even the two surviving characters I really happen to dislike (guess who!) are necessarily forever irredeemable despite their selfishness.

Plus I find the idea that the bad guys "won" quite preposterous, and not applicable, on multiple levels.
If they aren't irredeemable, then neither is Lelouch.

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Yes, but it's precisely his willingness to act that pushes Lelouch from just being a good man to...a good man who cannot claim to have a clean conscience anymore. All for the sake of results, but no matter how admirable they are...he knows very well his miracles and his contributions to society were partially built on a castle of lies with a moat of blood. There's no arguing that much.
That's the black and white way of looking at it. You're forgetting about the show's Black and Grey Morality. As for the path of blood and lies part, he had few to no options at the time. (The obvious exception being the Zero Requiem.)

Now granted, he was no saint, but at the very least he was looking out for the long term, which is more than can be said for most other characters.

Quote:
Of course, but Lelouch shares at least part of the blame too for not taking Suzaku's warning seriously, especially when the Knight of Seven isn't usually the kind to bluff.
Lelouch suspected he was full of crap after the sabotaged meeting that made it appear that Suzaku intentionally set him up.

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The other examples -and others I've left unsaid- still continue to apply.
Not sure what other examples you refer to.

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Probably, though technically that's uncertain given the lack of figures for Mt. Fuji, but you can definitely count it as a form of escalation from his Narita operation.
Indeed. My point exactly.

Quote:
I suppose a cynical viewer could apply the Stalin quote here: one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

In the end Lelouch wasn't quite that far gone, since that's more Schneizel's logic in truth, but it seems he did see himself as already too tainted by blood to suddenly turn back to the light. Instead, he adds more blood and more hate to his list of sins. What you propose is more reasonable, sure, but for Lelouch living on to enjoy the world would be running away from his own twisted sense of ethics. He wouldn't say "I did a lot of horrible things, but if I clean my name and help rebuild the world it'll all be fine!"
He wouldn't be solely be enjoying it. As I said, he'd be too busy with the day-to-day of the world rebuilding for that. Plus, judging by his inner dialogue post-betrayal ruminating over his losses, he lost his will over those, not the blood on his hands. The suicide by proxy method was the easy way out.

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Less but not insignificant by any means when you take everything into account, especially not for Lelouch.
That depends. Consider whatever it is he did during ZR that made him the most despicable person in existence in such a short time. (Considering what Charles, etc. were responsible for, that's a TALL order.)

Also, during his rebellion, he achieved a lot of good results, such as create an international union to counter Britannia legitimately.

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I know you don't see things this way, but even if that hypothetical refugee killed her, she probably wouldn't suffer as much as living on without Euphemia and knowing that her beloved sister will be remembered as a yet another murderous Britannian nutcase.
That really depends. Cornelia looked reasonably content in the couple post-canon shots, meaning she's moved on in her sister's memory.
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Old 2013-07-14, 01:11   Link #8071
kaiser11492
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Despite the fact that the Britannian uniforms are mostly fictional, but what real-world uniform style would Britannia uniforms most resemble?

I ask because the uniforms to me show a complex mix of British, Prussian, French, and some other styles I can't put my tongue on.
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Old 2013-08-02, 04:30   Link #8072
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Originally Posted by kaiser11492 View Post
Despite the fact that the Britannian uniforms are mostly fictional, but what real-world uniform style would Britannia uniforms most resemble?

I ask because the uniforms to me show a complex mix of British, Prussian, French, and some other styles I can't put my tongue on.
Always think that Brittanian fashion is French-Roman oriented. And yes, a bit of Gothic Prussia and Russia in the mix!
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Old 2013-08-05, 06:32   Link #8073
Mcfart
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
If they aren't irredeemable, then neither is Lelouch.



That's the black and white way of looking at it. You're forgetting about the show's Black and Grey Morality. As for the path of blood and lies part, he had few to no options at the time. (The obvious exception being the Zero Requiem.)

Now granted, he was no saint, but at the very least he was looking out for the long term, which is more than can be said for most other characters.



Lelouch suspected he was full of crap after the sabotaged meeting that made it appear that Suzaku intentionally set him up.



Not sure what other examples you refer to.



Indeed. My point exactly.



He wouldn't be solely be enjoying it. As I said, he'd be too busy with the day-to-day of the world rebuilding for that. Plus, judging by his inner dialogue post-betrayal ruminating over his losses, he lost his will over those, not the blood on his hands. The suicide by proxy method was the easy way out.



That depends. Consider whatever it is he did during ZR that made him the most despicable person in existence in such a short time. (Considering what Charles, etc. were responsible for, that's a TALL order.)

Also, during his rebellion, he achieved a lot of good results, such as create an international union to counter Britannia legitimately.



That really depends. Cornelia looked reasonably content in the couple post-canon shots, meaning she's moved on in her sister's memory.
I think that fact that he was transparent was what made people hate him in such a short amount of time. The Elevens didn't like him because they felt betrayed by Zero, and everyone knew what Geass was and that Leleuche was mind controlling the populace. Plus the fact that he was gunning for controlling the world (trying to politic his way into controlling the UFN).
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Old 2013-08-05, 19:33   Link #8074
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Well, that is the dark part of the show! Code Geass is good at potraiting our real world: The elder trying to harvest as much as possible, while the youth feel useless. But the anime never giving a solution, instead going with the "masked anti-hero" route.
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Old 2013-08-07, 16:45   Link #8075
azul120
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Originally Posted by Mcfart View Post
I think that fact that he was transparent was what made people hate him in such a short amount of time. The Elevens didn't like him because they felt betrayed by Zero, and everyone knew what Geass was and that Leleuche was mind controlling the populace. Plus the fact that he was gunning for controlling the world (trying to politic his way into controlling the UFN).
No. Most of the Japanese don't know what went down with Zero (with the exception of the Black Knights who put up the lie after the betrayal, they thought he died), and Charles, and heck Schneizel were hardly any less transparent, and they were known tyrants. It would have required a massive body count to rival that.

Lelouch's original end-game prior to the betrayal was much more ideal.
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Old 2013-08-11, 03:29   Link #8076
kaiser11492
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Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Always think that Brittanian fashion is French-Roman oriented. And yes, a bit of Gothic Prussia and Russia in the mix!
could you explain what you mean by French-Roman if you can? i can see the french part sort of, but the Roman part is a little more difficult to make out.
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Old 2013-08-11, 20:10   Link #8077
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Well, the robe Lelouch wears as emperor.
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Old 2013-08-11, 23:30   Link #8078
kaiser11492
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Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Well, the robe Lelouch wears as emperor.
when you say Roman, do you mean the Roman Empire or the Roman Catholic Church because the robe Lelouch wears as emperor looks similar to the robes worn by some Catholic bishops.
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Old 2013-08-12, 11:51   Link #8079
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Originally Posted by kaiser11492 View Post
when you say Roman, do you mean the Roman Empire or the Roman Catholic Church because the robe Lelouch wears as emperor looks similar to the robes worn by some Catholic bishops.
Perhaps he is speaking about "Art Roman" an art style going from the XI century up to the second half of the XII century. I think it's called "Romanesque art" in English. But that has nothing to do with clothing
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Old 2013-08-12, 16:23   Link #8080
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@Miles: You got that partly right! And Kaiser, both.
Anyway, now remember it, while Britannia might be Napoleon's enemy, I noticed there are similarities between them. Both are semi-feudal countries (the reason why I don't use the term "Constitutional Mornachy" is because the Emperors still has major part of power) and a "feat of arm" society.
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