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Old 2013-06-12, 00:36   Link #2201
magnum12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Second law is flat out broken.
It includes things from:
- No villains using a curse to kill in a locked room.
to
- No detectives using a crystal ball to see who did the crime.

Solving the crime because the character remembers from a previous life is right out.


Rule 4 is focused on "Keep things within the realm of the possible." To be able to use device, poison, or disease, such a thing should be real-world possible. (I'd consider _The Caves of Steel_ to be compliant here; while technology in the book was far ahead contemporary times, everything relevant was described in-story.)


Rule 8: As far as the disappearance of Rika & Satoko in Watanagashi-hen goes, I disagree. The results of Rena's investigations aren't disclosed until she gives her solution with the explanation. Even the flier mentioning the soy sauce (which Keiichi could have seen on his own) isn't mentioned until her solution.

Also, I view "clue" as much stronger than "foreshadowing". In Higurashi, I remember a lot of parts where a reader could say "Explanation B is also possible", but I don't remember much that could be shown "Explanation B is possible, and explanation A is wrong."
Point conceeded on Knox's 2nd. Completely utterly forgot about the
Spoiler for general spoilers:
.

In terms of real world possible, based on my field of study (microbiology), I can argue that that solution is most definately within the realm of real world possible. Based on the commonalities, I think I have a pretty solid idea as to
Spoiler for spoilers for the 8th novel:


Just found the manga. Don't know if I'm allowed to post the link though. The investigation starts on page 13 of chapter 9. Seems to show the soy sauce bottle to be empty and the cooker is off with a panel specifically dedicated to each. There also seems to be an object the size of a large piece of paper next to the cooker on the right side. Could this be the note? On page 14, Rena inspects the contents of the cooker noticing a bunch of cube like objects inside and checks the refridgerator, noticing the same cubes wrapped in plastic wrap (apparently tofu) with an expression that seems to indicate that she thinks something's wrong. I think it is at this point that where a "predatory trap" theory can be established, even if the clues require some knowledge of cooking (which I admittedly didn't have until Rena's explaination) to fully notice.

In chapter 10, page 29, Rena has what appears to be a large piece of paper in her hands, indicative that she found something important. Since the contents of the note weren't shown, I concede on the paper, but it seems everything else regarding the dinner were presented to the reader in the manga incarnation. Enough at least for a "Rika and Satako were lured to their deaths by a predatory trap" hypothesis. That combined with the "psycho rant" and Ooishi's comments about the whereabouts of certain individuals are enough clues for the reader to figure out the identity of the culprit. Of course, my argument is completely moot in the visual novel.

Last edited by magnum12; 2013-06-12 at 01:23.
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Old 2013-06-12, 21:42   Link #2202
rogerpepitone
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Except it wasn't a predatory trap; it was an opportunistic trap. Shion had no way of knowing that Rika would run out of soy sauce. She had no plans to kill Rika until Rika pulled out the spray can. (Shion was unsure whether Rika was involved at that time.) Also, the paper describing the soy sauce had been distributed to the town as a whole. Keiichi could have potentially read about the soy sauce days before.

And the rule is "The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader." The reader might guess that something important was written on the paper; Rena knew that the Sonozakis were distributing soy sauce.

Side comment: Who is the detective in Higurashi? Ooishi? Keiichi? Rena? Rika?
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Old 2013-06-12, 23:23   Link #2203
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I think who the detective is might vary by arc. I know Van Dyne's rules mandate the presence of a detective, but I don't think Knox says anything about it. Keiichi is never the detective. Mion and Shion are never the detective. I don't think Rika is the detective in any arc either (except MAYBE???) Minagoroshi-hen. This is just a guess, but the closest person to a detective in novels 1, 3 and 6 is Ooishi, and his role is minor. Akasaka is the detective in the 4th novel. The closest to detective's objectivity in Watanagashi-hen is Rena. Ooishi is also helpful in that arc as well.

On the whole, I'd say Higurashi is about as compliant with the concept of "fair play" mystery as Persona 4; i.e. some violations, but on the whole it seems to try to play fair by providing adequete clues and foreshadowing for the player to find the culprit. Yes, I know Persona 4 snaps Knox's 2nd in half, but the point is the same (the smoking gun in that series being found in October).

As per the theory I mentioned in spoilers for those interested.

Spoiler for spoilers for 8th novel:


A bit off topic, but I think we might have a way to find some answers to some of our unresolved questions. Apparently, R7 answers questions on his twitter page. If we have someone who's fluent in Japanese, perhaps we could have someone ask the questions as a representative to the anime suki community. Personally, I would just love to get some answers regarding HS (which I found to be a really cool yet absolutely scientifically plausible solution), and maybe find out if the theory above was correct or not. I wonder how R7 would react to said theory. Maybe even some of the questions that are currently ambiguous in terms of how they're interpreted.

Last edited by magnum12; 2013-06-13 at 00:02.
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Old 2013-06-29, 14:25   Link #2204
KanonTheFurniture
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I'm reading the Higurashi VN for the first time (having only seen the anime before and bits and pieces of the manga), and I'm at the part of Tatarigoroshi-hen where Keiichi calls "Mion" and asks to make sure she can take Satoko to the festival...but I'm starting to feel a little confused about the situation.

Spoiler for Meakashi-hen:

Edit: I've now finished Tatarigoroshi-hen in the VN and I have a few more questions.

Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:

Sorry for all the questions!!

Last edited by KanonTheFurniture; 2013-06-30 at 16:46. Reason: Added more questions.
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Old 2013-07-02, 06:43   Link #2205
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
I'm reading the Higurashi VN for the first time (having only seen the anime before and bits and pieces of the manga), and I'm at the part of Tatarigoroshi-hen where Keiichi calls "Mion" and asks to make sure she can take Satoko to the festival...but I'm starting to feel a little confused about the situation.

Spoiler for Meakashi-hen:
Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:


Quote:
Edit: I've now finished Tatarigoroshi-hen in the VN and I have a few more questions.

Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:
Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:


Quote:
As for my questions...first, Keiichi wakes up after about a day and a half (?) of sleeping on the riverside after his fall is broken by a cushion of some kind. As he walks towards the school he notices not only the rotten egg smell but that several bugs are dead, and the leaves and grass nearby are unseasonably yellow. Now, if the gas disaster was in fact from a natural source like we're meant to believe at this point, that makes enough sense, but...we know that's not the case. The villagers were rounded up and gassed inside the school building...so isn't it a little odd that the nearby area shows effects of the gas so drastically as well? I think it also said something in the epilogue about complaints from the surrounding areas of Hinamizawa, before the actual discovery of the incident, where people smelled rotten eggs or something...so why would something that happened in an isolated area spread out so much that the effects were noticed some distance from the school? Then again, I suppose there would need to be some sort of coverup to make the disaster look more natural to match the fake story, but I don't recall anything like that ever being explained in the anime (though it's been quite a while and I really only remember the major details of Kai, not little specifics like that).
Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:


Quote:
Oh, I also had a question that had only occurred to me at this point - I'm playing MangaGamer's English version and considering its...questionable translation quality, I initially thought nothing of the fact that sometimes it talked about 'cicadas' and other times 'higurashi' (I figured it was just inconsistency). But I've heard that higurashi isn't the word for cicada but a specific type of cicada (like how umineko is a specific type of seagull)...the ones that only cry in the evening. So is that 'miiiiiiiiiiiin miiiiiin miiiin miiiin miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin' cicada sound effect that plays at all hours of the game different from the other cry that only shows up in nighttime scenes? I honestly hadn't paid enough attention to notice the cries sounded different and assumed higurashi = cicada in general
Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:


Quote:
Finally, what's the point of the post-credits interview with Keiichi? We know that he didn't have the power to curse people to death and all those deaths can be explained logically, and his wishing them (even specifics like Takano burning) were just coincidence. So...why the scene? Just for scare factor value? It's pretty obvious from the reader standpoint that it was Keiichi being interviewed since he knew things only Keiichi would know, and there are no zombies or doppelgangers walking around. When the truth of everything that happened comes to light, the whole interview segment seems to have little purpose aside to add some extra, mysterious creepiness to the end of the story.
Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:


Quote:
Oh, and one last question - at the end of the 'All-Cast Review Session' (which seem to be the inspiration of Umineko's tea parties), Keiichi reveals that Shion will be the star of 'the next chapter'. Obviously he means Meakashi-hen, the first answer arc, but...what about Himatsubushi-hen? At the very end of the party, too, you unlock Himatsubushi-hen and it's announced as a sort of bonus side-story (I think they say it was an arc that wasn't originally planned for release...kinda like Land of the Golden Witch?), but this leaves me a little confused about how the games were originally released in Japan. I thought that the 4 question arcs were released on individual discs, where each new episode contained the previous ones. Thus, the one containing all 4 arcs in Japan would have been Himatsubushi-hen, right? You'd have to buy it individually so it wouldn't be as much of a 'secret chapter' then...and...the Tatarigoroshi-hen disc, I assumed, would just contain Onikakushi-hen, Watanagashi-hen, and Tatarigoroshi-hen. So what's the deal? Did Japanese players who bought the Tatarigoroshi-hen disc still unlock this secret chapter? Was Himatsubushi-hen written in advance, then, since the end of Tatarigoroshi-hen makes it sound like Ryukishi was already writing Meakashi-hen and it'd be the next release? I know this has nothing to do with the story itself but I'm a little curious.[/spoiler]
Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:

Quote:
Sorry for all the questions!!
How do you like the visual novel so far compared to the anime and the manga?
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Old 2013-07-04, 22:01   Link #2206
KanonTheFurniture
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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
How do you like the visual novel so far compared to the anime and the manga?
Well, I've read the Umineko VN, so I had an idea of what to expect going in, but even so it's nice to see all the extra insight you just don't get from the anime and even the manga. The manga is definitely more faithful, but even then, with the exclusion of some inner monologues or the TIPs, you don't get as detailed a picture as you do from the VN. My main regret is that, going in, I already know the solution to the mystery of the Higurashi world, and I'm just reading it for fun to try and get that extra detail (mostly because I thought it'd be fun to go through Higurashi again during June, and after re-watching Season 1 decided trying the VN would be more interesting). I keep trying to think like someone who doesn't know the answers, and trying to feel what it would be like to 'solve' things going along, but...well, I guess I'm like Rika in that sense even though I'm going through past scenarios that are presenting a mysterious situation, I already have knowledge from the future in my mind, so knowing what's going to happen before it happens cheapens the effect a little. But it's still a fun experience.

I think it'll be a lot more interesting when I hit Tsumihoroboshi-hen (I just finished Himatsubushi-hen and will be starting Meakashi-hen next), because I've ONLY experienced the anime version of it (and I know they left a ton out) - Meakashi-hen is as far as I've collected the Yen Press volumes of the manga, and the scanlation project for Tsumihoroboshi-hen didn't get very far either, so I think it'll feel a lot more revealing to me from this point on (I've also yet to read more than the first chapter or two of the Minagoroshi-hen or Matsuribayashi-hen manga). Plus, coming from Umineko, I was expecting lots of epic music in Higurashi, and the question arcs were very short on that...I hear Kai really turns it around, so I'm definitely more excited to go on from here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:
Spoiler for response:


Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
I always assumed it was the same cicada species, the Higurashi's
I did too at first, but it's strange that sometimes MangaGamer uses the word 'cicadas', and other times 'Higurashi'. Since there are cicada sound effects all throughout the game, day or night, and I heard Higurashi are only known for crying in the evening, I thought maybe there was a difference here...but I guess I'm not paying enough attention to their sound effects to really know for sure if the cry is different. I just know I've also heard that 'kana kana kana' is the onomatopoeia for cicadas crying (hence Rena's catchphrase), but so is the 'miiin miiiin miiin miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin' sound...and the latter is how I'd describe the cicada noises I hear through most of the VN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Spoiler for Series-wide spoilers:
Spoiler for response:
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Old 2013-07-05, 03:44   Link #2207
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Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
Well, I've read the Umineko VN, so I had an idea of what to expect going in, but even so it's nice to see all the extra insight you just don't get from the anime and even the manga. The manga is definitely more faithful, but even then, with the exclusion of some inner monologues or the TIPs, you don't get as detailed a picture as you do from the VN. My main regret is that, going in, I already know the solution to the mystery of the Higurashi world, and I'm just reading it for fun to try and get that extra detail (mostly because I thought it'd be fun to go through Higurashi again during June, and after re-watching Season 1 decided trying the VN would be more interesting). I keep trying to think like someone who doesn't know the answers, and trying to feel what it would be like to 'solve' things going along, but...well, I guess I'm like Rika in that sense even though I'm going through past scenarios that are presenting a mysterious situation, I already have knowledge from the future in my mind, so knowing what's going to happen before it happens cheapens the effect a little. But it's still a fun experience.

I think it'll be a lot more interesting when I hit Tsumihoroboshi-hen (I just finished Himatsubushi-hen and will be starting Meakashi-hen next), because I've ONLY experienced the anime version of it (and I know they left a ton out) - Meakashi-hen is as far as I've collected the Yen Press volumes of the manga, and the scanlation project for Tsumihoroboshi-hen didn't get very far either, so I think it'll feel a lot more revealing to me from this point on (I've also yet to read more than the first chapter or two of the Minagoroshi-hen or Matsuribayashi-hen manga). Plus, coming from Umineko, I was expecting lots of epic music in Higurashi, and the question arcs were very short on that...I hear Kai really turns it around, so I'm definitely more excited to go on from here.
I read the visual novel of Higurashi, before seeing the anime. Because I liked the visual novel very much and I'm always interested in finding out how things work I started taking notes throughout the question arcs. I used those notes to create a design analysis of Higurashi. If you are interested in reading it you can find it here.

Quote:
Spoiler for response:
Maybe Shion also said nothing, because she was startled that Keiichi said almost exactly the same thing as Satoshi had said before he disappeared.
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Old 2013-07-09, 07:39   Link #2208
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About the Shion/Mion telephone call in Tatarigoroshi:

I always thought that in Tatarigoroshi, Mion was the one who received both calls (the one before Watanagashi 1982 and the one in 1983) and therefore can connect the two conversations.

I have two problems ...

In Onikakushi,
Spoiler for whole story:


In Meakashi,
Spoiler for meakashi:
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Old 2013-07-09, 09:59   Link #2209
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Spoiler for onikakushi:
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Old 2013-07-14, 23:19   Link #2210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draugur View Post
About the Shion/Mion telephone call in Tatarigoroshi:

I always thought that in Tatarigoroshi, Mion was the one who received both calls (the one before Watanagashi 1982 and the one in 1983) and therefore can connect the two conversations.
Watch/read Meakashi-hen again. Satoshi calls Mion about the incident in the classroom (where Shion beat on Satoko) to apologize, but since Mion wasn't there, she goes to a public phone and calls Shion. She gives Shion the number and has her call Satoshi instead, pretending she's Mion. It's factually proven that Shion receives the phonecall from Satoshi. And, based on the things "Mion" says on the phone to Keiichi in Tatarigoroshi-hen (manga and VN especially), it's pretty obvious that it's also the same person who got the call from Satoshi and is experiencing a deep deja-vu...the things she says wouldn't make nearly as much sense if it was Mion on the phone, even if she knew the details of Satoshi's call because Shion told her. It's very obvious then that the person who got both calls is the same, and thus that person has to be Shion. It's just a mystery why Shion answers Keiichi's call in 1983 when she had no reason to pretend she's her sister at that point...that's why I theorized it's probably that she happened to pick up the phone, and the call got out of hand before she could tell Keiichi that she was Shion.

I have a new question...

Spoiler for Minagoroshi-hen:
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Old 2013-07-15, 02:57   Link #2211
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No, I know what happened in Meakashi. What I tried to say is that in Tatarigoroshi (not in Meakashi) Satoshi spoke to Mion (as he intended) about taking Satoko to the festival.

He also called Mion in Meakashi, but Mion said she was busy and would call him back later and then rang up Shion, so Shion could talk to Satoshi and apologize about what happened at school. Pretending to be Mion, of course.

What I meant was that in Tatarigoroshi one year ago, the quarrel at school maybe didn't happen. So when Satoshi called Mion, she talked to him herself the whole time and didn't transfer the phone call to Shion as she did in Meakashi. And when Keiichi called Mion a year later, she remembered the whole conversation.
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Old 2013-07-17, 16:11   Link #2212
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Spoiler for spoilers for minagoroshi-hen:


As for Fredrica, I do have a theory about that:

Spoiler for spoilers for both higurashi and umineko??:
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Old 2013-07-18, 21:30   Link #2213
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Originally Posted by magnum12 View Post
Spoiler for spoilers for minagoroshi-hen:
Spoiler for Response:

Last edited by KanonTheFurniture; 2013-08-02 at 15:43.
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Old 2013-08-13, 07:27   Link #2214
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Is Miotsukushi-hen could be considered as canon? Did Ryukishi write this?

IIRC he is the supervisor of this game, but the scriptwriter is another person from Alchemist whose name is Kanou Kiichi (叶希一).

It seems that arc is pretty popular among Japanese fans, but I don't like it if it's not written by Ryukishi himself.
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Old 2013-08-13, 09:10   Link #2215
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everything is considered canon, even the katarinabashi-hen
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Old 2013-08-13, 09:14   Link #2216
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...I have no idea if you are serious or not, but better be safe.

It was never confirmed to be canon at all. Hell, it was an arbitrary mention by the fans just because it has a sort of bittersweet ending, and still involve more ridiculous stuff than it should be. The very fact Matsuribayashi-hen was still included in the Kizuna remake series says it all.

A good deal of the spin off scenario cannot be considered as canon considering the incompatible setting with the main plot. Advocating the fragments setting argument for these doesn't make sense at all.
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Old 2013-08-13, 11:59   Link #2217
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
everything is considered canon, even the katarinabashi-hen
Well, Kataribanashi-hen is not all serious stories at all. They're all pure fan-made.

The scanlated ones are fine, but others... Some of them just like Kira.
You know what I'm saying. If you're one of people who can't stand Kira, you can't stand the rest which is in shadow as well.
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Old 2013-08-14, 09:36   Link #2218
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...I have no idea if you are serious or not, but better be safe.

It was never confirmed to be canon at all. Hell, it was an arbitrary mention by the fans just because it has a sort of bittersweet ending, and still involve more ridiculous stuff than it should be. The very fact Matsuribayashi-hen was still included in the Kizuna remake series says it all.

A good deal of the spin off scenario cannot be considered as canon considering the incompatible setting with the main plot. Advocating the fragments setting argument for these doesn't make sense at all.
but what do you consider canon, the main "timeline" and fragments related to it or just anythign that can and does happen within the fragments; then again I stopped cargin about when they cry fan-theories when people started advocating rokkenjima-prime.

[EDIT]
did not mean to sounds rude, it's just that I recently had a talk with a guy who refused to acknowledge word of god regarding madoka, so I might have a bad tone.

Last edited by maximilianjenus; 2013-08-14 at 10:13.
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Old 2013-08-15, 04:31   Link #2219
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@maximilianjenus Thanks. I understand what you meant.

@Klashikari Thanks. But, someone with this post saying that Ryukishi declared it as the "true ending".

But, according to this Alchemist page, there are 3 original scenario with complete supervision by Ryukishi07. And it is just doesn't make sense if he didn't write it, but he declared it as canon.

Also, a guidebook says that according to Ryukishi07, Miotsukushi-hen is like another side of a coin of Matsuribayashi-hen. (Source: http://www.wikihouse.com/higurasi/in...D4%A4%B7%CA%D4)

Maybe I could take FMA to FMA:B (or original manga) relationship as an analogy to Higurashi: Matsuri to Higurashi (original VN). Maybe not.

Last edited by goldenlander; 2013-08-15 at 04:54.
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Old 2013-08-15, 09:49   Link #2220
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well, the thing about it being a true ending might be a misunderstanding; "true ending" usually means a bitter sweet ending, something that is not a bad end (like what we get for most higurashi arcs) but is not a happy end either, because some people tend to find hapy endings to be ridiculous ( i have seen people complain about the way higurashi kria ended becuase they think it's stupid that a few kids can beat a military platoon.)
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