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Old 2013-07-19, 15:24   Link #1781
J4n1
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Aladdin does have a bias. He thinks the magicians grief and their lives are important enough to risk the world and fight a war on their behalf. If he really wanted to avoid a worst case scenario, he would have struck at the furnace directly and ignored the war. He would have let the people in the 5th level die and he would have let the city fall. And even when there was a ceasefire, rather than go after the furnace, he negotiates Reim's withdrawal without any concessions from Magnostadt.
That's less a pro mage bias, and more naivete in my opinion.
Aladdin tries to do things with 0 casualties, and refuses to let people die even if their deaths would ultimately serve to save more lives.

And, let's face it, while Magnostadt is horrible, so's pretty much everywhere else, the main difference is how they are horrible, and who they are horrible to.
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Old 2013-07-19, 16:23   Link #1782
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That's less a pro mage bias, and more naivete in my opinion.
Aladdin tries to do things with 0 casualties, and refuses to let people die even if their deaths would ultimately serve to save more lives.
No, it's pure bias. That's the only explanation.

He casually disregarded Reim's grievances, as well as the grievances of everyone else Magnostadt has hurt, but holds the anger of the mages' up as something that needs to be placated. He also called Scherazade arrogant and talked down to her, proclaiming her a failure of a Magi (and she rolled over like a dog for him. Truly the worst character in the manga at this point. Came off as being strong, ended up incredibly weak).

While he doesn't agree with Mogamett's disdain for goi, you can rest assured that he has Aladdin's respect and probably admiration despite everything he's done. He paid her absolutely no such respect, despite her success as a fellow Magi and the unique way in which she's full-filled her duties.

What's more, this isn't Aladdin refusing to let people die to save more later. This is Aladdin risking absolutely everyone's life for a handful of people that have pretty much done everything they can to make everyone their enemy.

And he's been incredibly lucky.

Lucky that Alibaba was there to save his smart little ass.

Lucky that Scherazade completely lost her spine after speaking with him for a few minutes (she was a f-ing tiger up to that point). Aladdin didn't make any promises to halt Magnostadt's policies, both foreign and domestic, and she completely backed off despite the fact that her side was the righteous one with the most to lose. (In fact, they have already lost much due to this conflict, and she just casually disregards that, not even promising to live to fight another day)

What would he have done if Reim instead escalated the conflict? He'd already held the mages up as a special snowflake group that matter more than everyone else. What if Scherazade had done the same for Reim? Could you blame her for mirroring Aladdin's stance that her people are more important than the world?

Here is a woman nearly 300 years old and she's talked down by a punk kid that is excused for being "naive" and she doesn't even challenge him on any level. Not on what he's done, what he's going to do, or what he's even willing to do. She doesn't strike a single blow against his apparent idealism, sparing him from having to embarrass himself by putting it out there and having to defend it.

He's been insanely lucky. Almost as if he were a...

Quote:
And, let's face it, while Magnostadt is horrible, so's pretty much everywhere else, the main difference is how they are horrible, and who they are horrible to.
But that's not the issue here. Aladdin had already faced this situation before with the Kouga. A large group making a move to absorb a smaller one.

Under the circumstances, wouldn't the most obvious solution to the conflict have been to roll Magnostadt up like a blunt and smoked it instead of Reim? What's Mogmaett going to do if all of his defenses have suddenly crumbled faster than anyone's expectations? Why didn't Aladdin side with Reim and aid them in conquering Magnostadt?

He had no way of knowing Reim was going to give up right then and there with his little display of power. And even if he shell shocked them into submission on that particular day, there's no promises for tomorrow. Not to mention the fact that Kou also had designs on Magnostadt.

So he came down on one side of the conflict? Does he choose the bigger, stronger, more righteous side or the weaker, but more familiar one? Does he choose to resolve the conflict right then and there or does he leave the outcome up in the air, even so far as possibly committing himself to the on-going defense of Magnostadt forever?

This is why I've grown to dislike Aladdin. He turned a good war into a sand-box and a seemingly strong female character into a china doll and there's no skin off his nose for having done it. He played god and is not held the least bit responsible.
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Old 2013-07-19, 22:12   Link #1783
J4n1
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
No, it's pure bias. That's the only explanation.

He casually disregarded Reim's grievances, as well as the grievances of everyone else Magnostadt has hurt, but holds the anger of the mages' up as something that needs to be placated. He also called Scherazade arrogant and talked down to her, proclaiming her a failure of a Magi (and she rolled over like a dog for him. Truly the worst character in the manga at this point. Came off as being strong, ended up incredibly weak).
He is helping Magnostadt because that's where he is.
If he had been in Reim, and Magnostadt attacked them, he'd be helping Reim instead.
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Old 2013-07-19, 22:14   Link #1784
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He is helping Magnostadt because that's where he is.
If he had been in Reim, and Magnostadt attacked them, he'd be helping Reim instead.
So you're saying no one is allowed to defend themselves as far as Aladdin is concerned?
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Old 2013-07-19, 22:21   Link #1785
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So you're saying no one is allowed to defend themselves as far as Aladdin is concerned?
When did i say that?
Aladdin is naive and has fairly limited scope of vision, he usually acts on what is front of him without thinking about larger picture.
So while Reim is retaliating for things Magnostadt has done, that's not what Aladdin sees, so that's not what he reacts to.
And even if he understood that Reim is simply defending itself (presumably) from further hostilities by Magnostadt, he still does not want to see people die, so he tries to stop the war by driving away Reim who are mobile, instead of Magnostadt who are a city.

Also, i am not defending what Aladdin has done/is doing, but merely debating on his motives for doing that.
Not biased, just stupid.
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Old 2013-07-19, 22:50   Link #1786
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
When did i say that?
It's implied.

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Aladdin is naive and has fairly limited scope of vision, he usually acts on what is front of him without thinking about larger picture.
So while Reim is retaliating for things Magnostadt has done, that's not what Aladdin sees, so that's not what he reacts to.

And even if he understood that Reim is simply defending itself (presumably) from further hostilities by Magnostadt, he still does not want to see people die, so he tries to stop the war by driving away Reim who are mobile, instead of Magnostadt who are a city.
So you think that Aladdin would have smacked down Hakuei for killing her own men after they'd betrayed and assaulted her? If he had arrived a few minutes earlier to find her killing them by the dozens with her Djinn equip, he would have attacked her? Because in Aladdin's eyes, the one with the advantage is always wrong (except when it's him)?

Quote:
Also, i am not defending what Aladdin has done/is doing, but merely debating on his motives for doing that.
Not biased, just stupid.
The thing is I don't know if he's really been portrayed as stupid or naive. Not since Balbaad anyway.

Scherazade for her part was made to agree with him completely and she's one of the oldest and wisest persons on the planet. She initiated a war and didn't see fit to justify her actions in the slightest in the face of the main character being critical of her.

He's also been shown to be much smarter than Alibaba, who is actually an intelligent and educated person to the point he knows the Toran language and understands the mystery behind it and it's importance to the dungeons, but Alibaba is made to look dumb and completely out of the loop when Aladdin sits down to explain what it really means to him. This is a guy that followed the fantastic (and extremely embellished exploits) of the High King of the Sea, but he doesn't have enough imagination to grasp the concept of a parallel world?

Plus the fact that pretty much no one has questioned Aladdin's actions. I guess we're supposed to simply take it for granted that Aladdin is right to do what he does, because even when faced with people that Aladdin has crossed, they don't bare him any ill will, the lone exception being Kougyokou.
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Old 2013-07-20, 02:13   Link #1787
J4n1
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Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
So you think that Aladdin would have smacked down Hakuei for killing her own men after they'd betrayed and assaulted her? If he had arrived a few minutes earlier to find her killing them by the dozens with her Djinn equip, he would have attacked her? Because in Aladdin's eyes, the one with the advantage is always wrong (except when it's him)?
If all Aladdin knew/saw was Hakuei killing her men, then yes, he probably would have tried to stop her, context is everything.

And no, it's not that the one with advantage is wrong, it's that he does not really see further than his immediate surroundings in most situations.
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The thing is I don't know if he's really been portrayed as stupid or naive. Not since Balbaad anyway.
I think he has been portrayed as naive, and kinda stupid (well, book smart, street stupid), it's just less obvious now.
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Scherazade for her part was made to agree with him completely and she's one of the oldest and wisest persons on the planet. She initiated a war and didn't see fit to justify her actions in the slightest in the face of the main character being critical of her.
Why would she need to justify herself to some random kid that starts shouting at her?

Also, just because war is necessary (subjective judgement), does not mean that it's good, or easy to justify in the heat of the moment, especially to a kid who is in the opposite side.

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He's also been shown to be much smarter than Alibaba, who is actually an intelligent and educated person to the point he knows the Toran language and understands the mystery behind it and it's importance to the dungeons, but Alibaba is made to look dumb and completely out of the loop when Aladdin sits down to explain what it really means to him. This is a guy that followed the fantastic (and extremely embellished exploits) of the High King of the Sea, but he doesn't have enough imagination to grasp the concept of a parallel world?
Not sure what this has to do with the bias debate.
Aladdin is not stupid in that he can't think, or understand difficult concepts, but he still can't really see things past the horizon from where he is, and gets pulled into whatever group of people he is with.

Also, what should he have done?
He tried to minimize bloodshed, and drive the army away without slaughtering them, because even if the mages of Magnostadt suck, there are innocent people in there, and being conquered is almost surely going to get many of them killed.

But anyway, we're veering of from the original point.

Pro-mage bias, or anti-muggle bias, i don't really see it in Aladdin, possibly pro-peace bias if such can be said to exist, in that he tries to avoid conflict even when it would be smarter in the long run to not to.
But favoring mages over muggles, not really.
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Old 2013-07-20, 09:52   Link #1788
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If all Aladdin knew/saw was Hakuei killing her men, then yes, he probably would have tried to stop her, context is everything.

And no, it's not that the one with advantage is wrong, it's that he does not really see further than his immediate surroundings in most situations.

I think he has been portrayed as naive, and kinda stupid (well, book smart, street stupid), it's just less obvious now.
If he were meant to be seen as naive and stupid, there'd be examples of him involving himself in situations where he didn't look especially good. He'd also be subject to criticisms from others for getting involved in things that have nothing to do with him.

He'd make mistakes and the manga hasn't really shown that he has made them. Certainly, Aladdin doesn't think he's made any mistakes. No one in the manga thinks he's made mistakes.

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Why would she need to justify herself to some random kid that starts shouting at her?
Because he's a punk kid with the power to present himself as an obstacle to Reim's goals and he is a fellow Magi with a butt load of power, but apparently lacks the sense to use it.

Quote:
Also, just because war is necessary (subjective judgement), does not mean that it's good, or easy to justify in the heat of the moment, especially to a kid who is in the opposite side.
A lesson in objectivity and personal responsibility would have been sufficient. I still hope a lesson like that is coming for Aladdin, but the way Scherazade rolled over for him doesn't give me hope.

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Not sure what this has to do with the bias debate.
Aladdin is not stupid in that he can't think, or understand difficult concepts, but he still can't really see things past the horizon from where he is, and gets pulled into whatever group of people he is with.
You're saying rather than bias, he's stupid and naive. I'm saying that the manga hasn't portrayed him as being such since lots of seemingly smart people are made to look stupid by him.

Quote:
Also, what should he have done?
He tried to minimize bloodshed, and drive the army away without slaughtering them, because even if the mages of Magnostadt suck, there are innocent people in there, and being conquered is almost surely going to get many of them killed.
He should have ended the conflict right out and paved the way for Reim to conquer Magnostadt. All Aladdin did was delay the Reim army, set it back. The only thing that ended the war was Scherazade's rather stupid decision to leave without any assurances from Aladdin that he would actually solve the issues that caused the war in the first place. Or that he'd actually be able to take care of the medium.

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Pro-mage bias, or anti-muggle bias, i don't really see it in Aladdin, possibly pro-peace bias if such can be said to exist, in that he tries to avoid conflict even when it would be smarter in the long run to not to.
But favoring mages over muggles, not really.
Why did he choose to side with Magnostadt then, if not personal bias? If he wanted to end the conflict, their defeat was the only way to be sure. If he thought they were the right side of the conflict, that would mean he's accepted everything Magnostadt has done as being right and you can't say he's ignorant of what they've done, since he's seen all of it first hand.

I don't buy that he's stupid and impulsive. Not after the way Alibaba and Scherazade were made to look like fools by him. I also don't think he is especially idealistic, since he doesn't talk about anything like that. He does things, but doesn't say why he does the things he does.
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Old 2013-07-20, 10:39   Link #1789
J4n1
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I don't buy that he's stupid and impulsive. Not after the way Alibaba and Scherazade were made to look like fools by him. I also don't think he is especially idealistic, since he doesn't talk about anything like that. He does things, but doesn't say why he does the things he does.
Well, i don't buy that he is particularly biased for mages, or against non mages.
Nor do i think that we are supposed to see him as one.

And just because someone is a bit naive, or we are meant to see someone as naive, does not mean the author will put them in a situation where they are seen in a bad light.
And even then, aren't you seeing him in a bad light in the Magnostadt arc?
I know i am, i just feel that he is in the wrong due to naivety/lack of vision instead of bias.

Also, everyone is biased, Aladdin included, but it's not anti or pro mage bias, it's a "people close to me/people nice to me" bias.
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Old 2013-07-20, 11:12   Link #1790
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And even then, aren't you seeing him in a bad light in the Magnostadt arc?
I know i am, i just feel that he is in the wrong due to naivety/lack of vision instead of bias.
I see him making all of the wrong decisions, but the fact that the manga hasn't even reflected on him at all makes me think that he's not supposed to be seen in a bad light. I'm wrong for thinking he's wrong as far as the manga is concerned. It's not even an honest difference of opinion, Aladdin is simply right as a matter of fact. And that's extremely irritating to me.

Quote:
Also, everyone is biased, Aladdin included, but it's not anti or pro mage bias, it's a "people close to me/people nice to me" bias.
If he were blinded by having lived in Magnostadt for a year and felt a personal attachment to the place and that is what spurred him to act out as he did, that would be fine. He'd still be completely wrong for siding with them in the conflict, but if he honestly wanted to protect the place because he liked it, it'd be fine.

Except he actually comes off as being extremely high and mighty the way he handled it and the way he talked down to Scherazade. Magi are supposed to care about the world in his opinion, which means he's supposed to be above personal attachments. And as far as the manga is concerned, he doesn't have personal attachments, because no one has held him up as a hypocrite.

So I guess rather than being stupid and naive or having a personal bias towards a place and people, Aladdin is right because the author said he was. The author's bias towards her pet.

The arc was shaping up to be pretty good, but it really took a major nose-dive when Aladdin stuck his nose in it and didn't dirty himself in the process. He's not conflicted. He knows exactly what he's supposed to do. No one speaks badly of him. And characters are even being made to act and behave dumb to reinforce how right he apparently is supposed to be.
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Old 2013-07-20, 11:37   Link #1791
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I see him making all of the wrong decisions, but the fact that the manga hasn't even reflected on him at all makes me think that he's not supposed to be seen in a bad light. I'm wrong for thinking he's wrong as far as the manga is concerned. It's not even an honest difference of opinion, Aladdin is simply right as a matter of fact. And that's extremely irritating to me.
Well that's where we disagree.
The manga has not spent lot of time contemplating his decisions, but then it has not spent that much time truly contemplating anyones decisions (well, maybe Alibabas in the arc where he was at his home kingdom).
We are free to come to decisions, and the manga has not tried to browbeat us into following any given example (well, except maybe that "destroying world = bad").

If i was going to make a guess on how we are supposed to see Aladdin, then i'd vote for "Well meaning, but naive and overly optimistic.".
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Old 2013-07-20, 12:07   Link #1792
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Well that's where we disagree.
The manga has not spent lot of time contemplating his decisions, but then it has not spent that much time truly contemplating anyones decisions (well, maybe Alibabas in the arc where he was at his home kingdom).
We are free to come to decisions, and the manga has not tried to browbeat us into following any given example (well, except maybe that "destroying world = bad").

If i was going to make a guess on how we are supposed to see Aladdin, then i'd vote for "Well meaning, but naive and overly optimistic.".
Everyone has their motives and actions broken down. Absolutely everyone. Except Aladdin. They might not spend an entire arc on each character, but there's usually something and you see characters reacting to one another.

Hakuryuu kills the pirate lady. Alibaba is critical of him and Hakuryuu bluntly says him right out that he probably did it because she reminded him of his mother. And that was pretty much just a preview of what Hakuryuu might be willing to do in order to get his revenge or even if he's capable of pulling it off. He says he wants to destroy the Kou Empire and he might just kill millions of people to take down his mother.

Morgiana wonders what she should do or what kind of sacrifices she has to make. Where do her loyalties lie? Which promise does she break?

Titus is conflicted over his loyalty to Scherazade, Reim, and his own impending death and the promise from Mogamett that he doesn't actually have to die. Titus doesn't actually take action until his final moments, but he is confronted by numerous people over what he should do and where he belongs.

Sinbad brainwashed Kogyokou. He wasn't happy about doing it, and you can be damn sure that when that little time bomb goes off, lots of people are going to be pissed off at him.

Scherazde as I keep pointing out was talked down to by Aladdin and ends up regretting everything she'd ever done in her entire life.

But Aladdin? No one calls him out on his shit. The most difficulty he's ever had in the manga up to this point was figuring out whether or not Mogamett was a good guy or a bad guy. And when he did reach a conclusion, he's completely satisfied and takes no action.

Aladdin is the Savior. The Chosen One. Completely above criticism.
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Old 2013-07-21, 12:24   Link #1793
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Ch 190

Well, that was certainly worth the wait.

Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2013-07-21, 12:53   Link #1794
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Great chapter, glad to see Alibaba not being sidelined again.

Funny conversation between Koumei and Alibaba, Kouen and self sacrifice?
No, he's just telling them to get the **** out of his way.

Aladdin finally realizes with what kind of person he made a deal with, if his answer doesn't satisfy Kouen, who knows what he'd to to him.

Kouen simply abducts Alibaba and pushes him into the lava, forcing him to absorb the magoi.
After this, Kouen may respect Alibaba more after he tried to use Kouha to his advantage.

So extreme magic are literally the extreme form of fire magic? Titus used multiple magic types to form his aberrant magic, Djinns achieve the same result by having high specialization of one type?
Since it's possible for one extreme magic to support another, maybe we'll see more combinations in the future? Like fire and wind or water and electricity?
It makes sense they never tried to use two extreme magic at the same time, I'd rather not experiment carelessly with powers that can annihilate cities.
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Old 2013-07-21, 12:55   Link #1795
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Kind of disappointed. I thought with all that prep En performed in the last chapter, he'd perform a single, super charged attack to breach the shield in one go. I certainly didn't think he'd begin killing black djinn again (that's all they've been doing for the past 3 months) or turn Alibaba into his side kick.

And I thought Djinn-users could only refuel their metal vessel once from an outside source?
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Old 2013-07-21, 13:25   Link #1796
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Aladdin is regretting asking help from Kouen adn Kouen just taking Alibaba away so that he could kick some ass faster.
In the end we learn not to get in Kouen way or you fucked
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Old 2013-07-21, 13:56   Link #1797
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In a way I'm finding more parallels between Kouen and Sinbad after this chapter:

1. They both genuinely care for their countries.
2. They're both very powerful and ambitious.
3. On the surface they're more or less likeable people.
4. In private they're both willing to go pretty far to achieve their goals, the only difference is Sinbad seems to be more manipulative in his methods whereas Kouen is more "get the **** out of my way".

By the way, did anyone else find it funny how Hakuei seemed to be the only person who completely understood what Kouen was planning?

I wonder if we'll ever get to see how those two are so familiar with each other.
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Old 2013-07-21, 14:11   Link #1798
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I wonder if we'll ever get to see how those two are so familiar with each other.
They'll probably get married after all is said and done.
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Old 2013-07-21, 14:19   Link #1799
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...I don't think he said all of that either. Hakuei's just adept at putting the best possible spin on what Kouen does for the benefit of others' understanding.

Kouen: **Crap, I can't take them on by myself. Hey, he's a flame user too - we'll just tag team this sh-t! Why didn't he think of this himself!?**
"HEY GET OVER HERE!

Hakuei: **Ah, they are both flame users, and he would most definitely need help with something like this. It would only make sense for him to use Prince Alibaba to aid him since they both can use the same element. Still, to just grab him like that, Kouen hasn't changed a bit...**



Hakuei is the best PR (Public Relations) manager anyone could hope to have. XD And NO! I don't want her marrying Kouen! (or anyone really for that matter!) ><
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Old 2013-07-21, 15:01   Link #1800
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Funny how last chapter I suspected that Kouen turned into a kid after switching his equip, and in the next chapter he's actually ACTING like one.



Anyway, I've got no issues with seeing Alibaba team up with him. At the very least, they were able to strike the "medium" with their extreme spells. Though I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the medium can instantly regenerate any damage its taken, lol.
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