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View Poll Results: Danganronpa - Episode 3 Rating
Perfect 10 4 10.26%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 10 25.64%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 20.51%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 17.95%
6 out of 10 : Average 5 12.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 5.13%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 7.69%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-07-21, 10:57   Link #81
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathscyther View Post

I have a feeling that she chose to get closer to Naegi for 3 reasons: Naegi's innocence, Naegi's potential and a common goal.

Kirigiri noticed Naegi's innocence. She probably thinks that he's not the kind of person to murder someone in order to help himself. This makes him a 'safe' partner. During the first trial she also noticed Naegi's potential. With some help from her in the beginning of the trial, he managed to solve the case quite easily in the end. After all, she said 'I expect great things from you.' to him after the trial. In other words, she thinks that he'll be useful to her. Lastly, Naegi blames Monokuma for everything instead of Maizono and Kuwata, so she's probably expecting him to fight against Monokuma's tricks/trials instead of murdering someone himself. This might be her own plan as well, since she told Naegi 'Don't do it now. If you really want to avenge her, that is.' when he was about to attack Monokuma. So she decided to cheer him up after the trial, because she wants him to move forward and help her to reach their common goal.
That sounds really good to me. The innocence/potential combination is a strong one given the circumstances.
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Old 2013-07-21, 12:10   Link #82
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many said Leon should stop... but why should he?
If the most weak looking girl try to kill him = how he know that no one else will try and succeed??
after all they are in prison but some criminal...
( fear make people do a lot of shit + it's like Maizono > throw pebble on snow mountain... )
+
true to be told both Sayaka and Leon don't know about all the rules > that why Sayaka try to blame Naegi while Leon didn't bother to hid his crime...
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Old 2013-07-21, 12:13   Link #83
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I dunno about you, but in comparison, Touko is already much more "weak looking" than Sayaka.

Also, the discussion was about Leon's claim to use self defense, while it isn't for reasons already explained. He had plenty occasions to prevent the situation escalating any further.
From another angle, killing Sayaka is a "good opportunity" considering she was cornered, but not only it just backfired with the additional rules, it is also quite questionable.
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Old 2013-07-21, 12:27   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandofFate View Post
Poor Leon.
Just an anime only watcher, but didn't mind the pacing much. Trial was pretty quick, but it was within acceptable parameters imo.

What happens in the game if you guess wrong? Do you just get a "GAME OVER. YOU ALL ARE DEAD" screen?
Bullseye...
No it's not.... You just rewind to the start of that particular segment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiryuu View Post
I can only hopefully assume that she sincerely believed half of them would be able to get out, and that since all of them surely had similarly desperate motivation to get out fast, she'd only be briefly letting others think he did what he had to do and that once she got out she could help him or wait for him. And I'm fine believing this. Since she's gone, we have no way of knowing how she'd have taken the fuller knowledge. Who knows, upon finding out that everyone else would have to die for her to get out, she might have even broken down and revealed the truth on her own.
Uhm, you're saying that leaving the rest to rot in the school with no way out other than to keep killing eachother... is virtuous? No, I don't actually think that's what you were trying to say. But not knowing the details about the trial is not an exenuating circumstance. It still means forsaking everyone except yourself, whether or not you know about them dying really doesn't make a difference. At least, not if you ask me.

Also, reveal the truth? Hah, that's suicide. No one who has committed murder would admit to it if the result would be their death.

Last edited by Dengar; 2013-07-21 at 12:40.
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Old 2013-07-21, 13:37   Link #85
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no matter, I'll just call her super duper best girl from now on.
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Old 2013-07-21, 16:05   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I dunno about you, but in comparison, Touko is already much more "weak looking" than Sayaka.

Also, the discussion was about Leon's claim to use self defense, while it isn't for reasons already explained. He had plenty occasions to prevent the situation escalating any further.
From another angle, killing Sayaka is a "good opportunity" considering she was cornered, but not only it just backfired with the additional rules, it is also quite questionable.
still in weak catalog + it is self defense if he have good lawyer
some crap like he was in fear for his life that after he leave she will just go after him so he have to act first to save his life + no one will believe him if he ask for help...etc ( injured idol girl >>>>>>> uninjured selfish person who play baseball for chick )
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Old 2013-07-21, 16:14   Link #87
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still in weak catalog + it is self defense if he have good lawyer
some crap like he was in fear for his life that after he leave she will just go after him so he have to act first to save his life + no one will believe him if he ask for help...etc ( injured idol girl >>>>>>> uninjured selfish person who play baseball for chick )
As stated earlier, there is no way the other students would believe in Sayaka more than Leon in this case, especially if Leon were to report the problem right after she went to the bathroom.
And self defense is absolutely not possible to invoke there, even moreso in court. The definition of self defense isn't only about protecting oneself, but also resorting to force that is proportional to the context. If Sayaka were to be killed on the moment of the assault, that would be self defense. The moment she was disarmed, nope. Going after her despite she locked herself in the bathroom isn't self defense either. No lawyer would be able to claim it was self defense.

In general, self defense situation would be granted for any individual that were to use force against an aggressor, provided
1) the threat was reasonably expected if no action was taken (thus, it can also justify preemptive self defense if the aggressor were to be identified as a threat even before their assault).
2) the force used was proportional to the aggressor behaviour/means (so using lethal force when the aggressor couldn't kill you would turn your self defense claim void)
3) the timing was appropriate (acting on instinct etc is fine. Coming back at the burglar with a shotgun with live ammo 10 min later isn't)
4) No other action could be possible and/or reasonably considered during this situation (no means for escape, no other means to stop the aggressor without harming them etc)

If -any- of these conditions isn't fulfilled, that's not SD at all.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2013-07-21 at 16:43.
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Old 2013-07-21, 17:15   Link #88
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Well, the US is notoriously a bit more lenient than that, but even there, if you have to break down a door to get at someone, it's not self-defense anymore. (Plus, they're not in the US.)
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Old 2013-07-21, 17:42   Link #89
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Just to be clear, guys, I was half-joking about the self-defense thing.

I really do feel a bit sorry for Leon, though, because I think that he understandably snapped a bit when a girl tried to take his life.

There's a certain survival-based pragmatism to his choice that's hard to deny, too. If Maizono tried to kill him here, then what's stopping her from trying again? Her motivation is still there, and there's no cops to drag her away and lock her up. You can tell your fellow classmates that she tried to kill you, but would they believe you? It's certainly doubtful that Naegi would have. And even if they do believe you, what then? Monobear isn't likely to allow her to be locked up - If anything, he'd want to encourage her on to commit the first murder.
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Old 2013-07-21, 17:51   Link #90
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You can tell your fellow classmates that she tried to kill you, but would they believe you? It's certainly doubtful that Naegi would have. And even if they do believe you, what then? Monobear isn't likely to allow her to be locked up - If anything, he'd want to encourage her on to commit the first murder.
Kyouko and Byakuya would be plenty enough to change any argument to Leon's favor considering the evidences and circumstances I mentioned before.
Due to how Sayaka was already hesitating with her plan, being exposed would shatter her confidence, because she would be ostracized within the group and the likes of Mondo and Sakura would definitely be a huge deterrent.

The simple thing to prevent her doing anything funny is to deprive her of her room key. She can obviously open from inside, but once outside, they can always lock it, which means she would be doomed the moment she has to sleep, and it is unlikely people will be fine to let Makoto help her after what she tried to do. Note also that Makoto was shocked to learn about Sayaka's deception, but still accept it as being naive. He didn't try to deny once the evidences pointed to this conclusion, so evidently he would not trust her after the mess.
Even if Monokuma tries to involve himself, you bet the other 14 students attention would be focused on her, so Sayaka has basically no room to do anything stupid.

That being said, I think the issue is rather how long Sayaka could stay alive after that, since she might be targeted, depending of Makoto actions. Still, since he rightfully blame Monokuma for all the mess (be it Sayaka or Leon), he would probably stick with her regardless, so her survival would be rather "ok".

Last edited by Klashikari; 2013-07-21 at 18:04.
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Old 2013-07-21, 18:00   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Kyouko and Byakuya would be plenty enough to change any argument to Leon's favor considering the evidences and circumstances I mentioned before.
Due to how Sayaka was already hesitating with her plan, being exposed would shatter her confidence, because she would be ostracized within the group and the likes of Mondo and Sakura would definitely be a huge deterrent.

The simple thing to prevent her doing anything funny is to deprive her of her room key. She can obviously open from inside, but once outside, they can always lock it, which means she would be doomed the moment she has to sleep, and it is unlikely people will be fine to let Makoto help her after what she tried to do.
Even if Monokuma tries to involve himself, you bet the other 14 students attention would be focused on her, so Sayaka has basically no room to do anything stupid.
You're basically assuming a best-case scenario for Leon here. And you're assuming this on the basis of what you know as a viewer of the anime. Leon himself doesn't necessarily know all of this (especially what you raised in your linked post - For example, Leon doesn't know that Maizono was seen retrieving the knife, and that's a pretty key detail in determining the likely initial aggressor here).

It's understandable that Leon would fear this becoming a he-said/she-said sort of deal if he accused Maizono of trying to kill him. I think you're being a bit too hard on Leon here. It shouldn't be hard to sympathize with his decision to try to kill Maizono after she tried to kill him, given the circumstances at play here.
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Old 2013-07-21, 18:11   Link #92
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I'm "hard" on his decision because the visible circumstances related to him leave little to nothing that would confirm he was the perp, simply due to the sword and the note.
Let's see this way: Leon have little to nothing to lose if he ask help from others. The simple fact he went ahead to get his tools confirm he thought she won't get out of there any time soon, so he had the advantage in term of options and discussions, even if he doesn't have every clues and all.

That's the very reason why I only criticize his course of action after Sayaka went in the bathroom. Even if you fear for your life, instead of killing the threat, you should rather maximize your safety, which means: being surrounded by allies and/or witnesses. Killing the threat might just lead to further complication (even if he didn't know about the trial system). And to make things worse, Sayaka was no longer a threat after being disarmed completely.

Hence why I conclude that Leon was acting purely on the urge of getting outside, as much as Sayaka did. He wasn't protecting himself when he broke through the door.
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Old 2013-07-21, 18:43   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I'm "hard" on his decision because the visible circumstances related to him leave little to nothing that would confirm he was the perp, simply due to the sword and the note.
You're expecting him to think extremely coolly and calmly and carefully when...

1) He's been caught in a horrible nightmare game.
2) He (as was every student) showed a highly disturbing video, likely hinting at the brutal slaying of friends and/or loved ones.
3) Just had someone make a surprise attempt on his life.

Given all of that, and given the heat of the moment, is it really that hard to believe that he honestly felt he had to kill Maizono to ensure his own safety?

So...


Quote:
Hence why I conclude that Leon was acting purely on the urge of getting outside, as much as Sayaka did. He wasn't protecting himself when he broke through the door.
I totally disagree with you on this. I definitely think you're being far too hard on Leon. I think that getting outside was, at most, a secondary motivation for Leon.
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Old 2013-07-21, 18:55   Link #94
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I would agree if Sayaka was in a state that could be a threat for him (as in, ready to attack again), but it is arguably not the case.

Like I said, if Leon killed her when she attacked him, I wouldn't raise any objection. Here, he deflected her attack, disarmed her and rendered unable of attacking again (broken wrist and loss of initiative due to the surprise attack advantage). From there, I wouldn't be surprised if someone get heated up and try to knock the door to give a punch or two.
But that's that. He was no longer in an imminent danger, and whereas anger and stress are one thing; deliberately dismantling a door, then picking a knife and THEN finish the job are three actions that tick me off.
It is really the fact there was a moment of respite, yet he still pursued this chain of actions that I do not consider that as "honestly trying to protect oneself". Imho, at best, it is either "revenge for being almost killed" and/or "want to get the hell outta here". That's all, and I just wanted to clear the self defense context brought by other people.

And like I stated before, Leon surely didn't plan to kill her prior the incident, but the opportunity was there.After that, it is a matter of perspective.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2013-07-21 at 19:10.
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Old 2013-07-21, 19:02   Link #95
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I said it before and I'll say it once more. If you think that Leon is legitimately pulling a self-defense card, you are completely and entirely wrong. It's not your fault, because the adaptation does not make this very clear. They cut out dialogue responding to his self-defense assertion as to why it's a laughable claim. The fact of the matter is, though, that they didn't think it and nor should you. One does not simply return to their room to acquire tools, break open a 'lock', and then murder someone in self defense.

The assertion that Leon was acting on his own motivations is a bit fishy to me. It was a convenient opportunity for him to win. Someone else started it, and he wanted to finish it. It gave him an excuse to justify the murder to himself. If you imagine him saying to himself "I'm just defending myself, she has to die or I will!" as he's breaking into the shower room, you've likely tapped into the mindset of Leon at the time.

It's an issue of 'fate' if you want to use such words. You're thinking about doing something but you're not quite sure if you should, and then an opportunity arises. It's fated that you should do it and life has decided for you. Not sure if you should buy that thing and you miss the sale, but then it goes on sale again? Consider it bought, as you were fated to acquire it! Leon almost certainly considered murder as a possibility, but then someone gave him the option and was so easily overpowered, leaving him in control. To him, I think he thought it fate that life gave him the way out so easily.
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Old 2013-07-21, 21:14   Link #96
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LOL I just noticed Monobear's visage on his slot machine is a take off of the Monopoly guy.
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Old 2013-07-22, 06:14   Link #97
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In Leon's defense: Depending on how much canon the manga is hee might have never intended to actually kill her.
Hard to tell whether its considered canon though, as there is a small contradiction with his end dialogue in the game.

Still Togami was partly right; Sayaka died because she switched rooms with Naegi.
Our dear protatgonist made a few mistakes here, starting by the way he tried raising flags (note in the game monokuma even states that he raised a flag).

She didn't need a hug she needed someone to splash cold water in her face

He should have been more suspicious of her too, after she told him how she did terrible things in the past (cut out dialogue in the anime)
It was imho pretty clear that she would either turn yandere or kill someone at some point, so yeah everyone shouldd have been more cautious, that includes Leon and Naegi.

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No it's not.... You just rewind to the start of that particular segment.
And before that you get a game over screen - Tried it for fun once to see if there is an - everyone gets executed video without spoiling myself
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Old 2013-07-22, 06:57   Link #98
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
In Leon's defense: Depending on how much canon the manga is hee might have never intended to actually kill her.
Hard to tell whether its considered canon though, as there is a small contradiction with his end dialogue in the game.
Dialogue alone isn't the only issue. The situation portrayed in the manga is very unlikely considering the evidences, and some characters aren't exactly the same, be it Leon, Byakuya etc.
Quote:
Our dear protatgonist made a few mistakes here, starting by the way he tried raising flags (note in the game monokuma even states that he raised a flag).
That's more like Monokuma joke regarding "galge looking" situation for Makoto there. Past that, it has little to no meaning. In fact, generally, this flag made most people used to VN/galge think that Sayaka would not commit a crime and/or won't die any time soon, being the love interest.
Quote:
He should have been more suspicious of her too, after she told him how she did terrible things in the past (cut out dialogue in the anime)
It was imho pretty clear that she would either turn yandere or kill someone at some point, so yeah everyone shouldd have been more cautious, that includes Leon and Naegi.
Shady business in entertainment field doesn't mean you are ready to kill someone. Idols are basically stuck in a strife for popularity, which include fishy business done by the manager, taking all opportunities for shows/live, spreading rumors etc. Arguably nothing close to murder, and I never heard of a murder case specifically related to idol business in Japan.
Considering how she was portrayed thus far, if Sayaka had a proper psychological support (as in thorough discussion over her inability to cope her loss of "purpose"), past the initial shock, she would be on the same page than Aoi. The mental unstability was due to the shock and the lack of time to think more about it, hence why her murder plan was prepared the very same day, with a very high risk.
Also, Dangan Ronpa IF confirms that she isn't dead set on murder to the point she would take every opportunity. To the contrary, it was a one time pressured decision.
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Old 2013-07-22, 09:39   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That's more like Monokuma joke regarding "galge looking" situation for Makoto there. Past that, it has little to no meaning. In fact, generally, this flag made most people used to VN/galge think that Sayaka would not commit a crime and/or won't die any time soon, being the love interest.
I wouldn't say neagi didn't try to raise them though.
The scene we are both referring opened up 3 possibilities:

- she turns out to be a yandere
- she will kill someone either way
- she won't die any time soon

I kinda had a feeling it would be either the first or the second, as she looked like a good actor to me, even before I played the game.

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Shady business in entertainment field doesn't mean you are ready to kill someone. Idols are basically stuck in a strife for popularity, which include fishy business done by the manager, taking all opportunities for shows/live, spreading rumors etc. Arguably nothing close to murder, and I never heard of a murder case specifically related to idol business in Japan.
Might be the sprite, but it sounded a bit more serious, than the average shady business. Not dead serious (pun intended9 but still a bit more serious

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Considering how she was portrayed thus far, if Sayaka had a proper psychological support (as in thorough discussion over her inability to cope her loss of "purpose"), past the initial shock, she would be on the same page than Aoi. The mental unstability was due to the shock and the lack of time to think more about it, hence why her murder plan was prepared the very same day, with a very high risk.
As I said, she didn't need hugs but water in her face. After that observation. - So yeah the missing psychological support is pretty much what I meant.

For naegi's mistakes:
It was a mistake to leave her alone in the room, without telling anyone.
By 'anyone' I mean especially Sakura, who would probably be able to get past doors without a key. - thus not fitting Sayaka's imaginary visitor's profile.

And yes, her plan was outright stupid.
Leaving aside that naegi would tell everyone Sayaka killed him, and Kyouka probably believing him once they know that everyone will die if the culprit isn't identified, she still made several other mistakes going from her target up to the weapon.
I don't say that she was dead set on murder, but the situation called for her being observed.
I agree that it was obvious she wasn't dead set on killing somoene, her lacking ability to pick the right target (she had a reason to pick leon) and her MO clearly suggest that.
if she was really all dead set on killing someone she could have just used another girls sewing kit against them.

Don't get me wrong.
Sayaka is certainly a victim of circumstances, prepared by monokuma, but from the point on where she broke none of the others should have left her alone for some time.
Also don't forget that Sayaka and Naegi went to look for a weapon, on her suggestion.
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Old 2013-07-22, 10:23   Link #100
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
as she looked like a good actor to me, even before I played the game.
Gut feeling based on looks etc is not even an argument. Characters aren't just set with the visual tropes, and the game proved it I believe.
Also, really, I see nothing that would lead her into Yandere rampage whatsoever. She doesn't have the profile for that.
Quote:
Might be the sprite, but it sounded a bit more serious, than the average shady business. Not dead serious (pun intended9 but still a bit more serious
The fact she was serious doesn't mean the gravity of her actions were anything close to murder. Also, you have to factor the idol industry and its usual shenanigans, instead of taking every words for face value.
Quote:
Sayaka is certainly a victim of circumstances, prepared by monokuma, but from the point on where she broke none of the others should have left her alone for some time.
Also don't forget that Sayaka and Naegi went to look for a weapon, on her suggestion.
I don't think that it is others' fault either in such instance. Remember that Japanese culture has a huge emphasis on privacy and individual personal space. As result, for anyone who isn't close enough to Sayaka, it would be unatural for them to "care" as in going as far sticking with them, unless it is the actual person who asked for this (hence why only Aoi had someone with her, because she was actually the one asking Sakura's company). Suffice to say, the other students thought she was under Makoto's care as well, and I can't blame Makoto either because he didn't think that "you will remain by my side for sure?" plea would go as far as taking the fall for her. It is a messy chain of cirmcunstances there.
As for the weapon, I must remind you that it was solely for self defense, and she asked an item that "could be used as a SD defense", otherwise she would take the knife. This also happened prior the incentive, and she dropped the necessity for it once she learned that Makoto would protect her.
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