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View Poll Results: To Aru Kagaku no Railgun S - Episode 14 Rating
Perfect 10 94 68.61%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 25 18.25%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 5 3.65%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.65%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.46%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.73%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 2.19%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.73%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.73%
Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-07-21, 11:36   Link #161
ninryu
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
I bet no one would be bitching if Touma were a girl in this instance.
Because that won't bring out the message that even the strongest, most independent female characters need to sit on their asses and let the man save everyone and be the hero. Because every girl is just waiting to be swoon off her legs by prince-charming who will take her to his castle and will do everything for her.
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Old 2013-07-21, 11:47   Link #162
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by ninryu View Post
I fucking HATE this episode. The "hero in shining armor" comes to save the "damsel in distress" - it was said in the episode itself! Once again a strong character who happens to be a female is regressed to a crying and blushing mess to please those moe-shit loving fanboys.
Mikoto is portrayed as a poor weak girl who can't even protect herself, let alone save someone else, and needs the "big strong man" to swoop in to save the day whilst swooning into his arms.
One of the strongest espers of Academy City's Level 5s? Only before the man arrives into the picture, then she will go back to her natural place as a woman - waiting for the guy to do the job. SO. MUCH. HATE.
Third strongest not same as strongest level 5

Even if she can defeat Accelerator = it's useless.
Power is not everything, after all if she team up with touma she will easily defeat him (Touma touch Accelerator to cancel his reflection than Mikoto defeat him with her power but it will become like Mars winning the battle but losing the war )

and it's not that can't even protect herself
since she can but the problem is that she need to find away to save over 9000 life which she can't do that alone + don't want to ask her friends for help since the enemy = is academy city dark side

Touma point of view which was been remove (they mostly show it from Misaka & Accelerator pov)

She didn't said that she want to die or must die to save them but have no choice but to die to save them > it mean even though she want to live she already steal her resolve to kill her self for the Sisters = if that is weakness I don't know what is strength...

That was the main reason why he didn't move from his place even though at that point he don't have any idea how to save the Sisters.
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Old 2013-07-21, 12:15   Link #163
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by ninryu View Post
Because that won't bring out the message that even the strongest, most independent female characters need to sit on their asses and let the man save everyone and be the hero. Because every girl is just waiting to be swoon off her legs by prince-charming who will take her to his castle and will do everything for her.
Did you rage this hard when the same thing happened in Index? Or were you fine with it because Touma was the protagonist and not Mikoto? Railgun's a spin-off and needs to keep in line with the original work, so don't fault it for that. You're coming off as a psychotic feminist otherwise and it's really, really unnecessary.
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Old 2013-07-21, 14:05   Link #164
ninryu
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Did you rage this hard when the same thing happened in Index? Or were you fine with it because Touma was the protagonist and not Mikoto? Railgun's a spin-off and needs to keep in line with the original work, so don't fault it for that. You're coming off as a psychotic feminist otherwise and it's really, really unnecessary.
I haven't seen Index, mainly for the fact it has even more Touma.
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Old 2013-07-21, 14:14   Link #165
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The same thing happened in the other story mediums. And it had absolutely not a goddamn thing to do with Mikoto or Touma's genders. Touma told her stay behind because she could not win against Accelerator, a fact they BOTH realize. The exact same thing would've happened if Kamijou was a girl and Misaka a boy.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-07-21 at 23:47. Reason: removed flamebait
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Old 2013-07-21, 16:07   Link #166
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by ninryu View Post
I haven't seen Index, mainly for the fact it has even more Touma.
Boy plz, a girl kicked Touma's ass in the very first story and left him k.o. for 3 whole days .


Mikoto has the "I can by myself, but if I can't nobody else can" typical behaviour, that is what makes her weak in problems like this one. Maybe her power was useless against Accelerator but has she ever considered about the next in rank, the Number 2? Maybe there is no info about him but there is no way someone would reject the chance of defeating the strongest, even the #4 Mugino tried to take advantage of the situation to take down the third strongest.
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Old 2013-07-21, 16:56   Link #167
Goldzero
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Boy plz, a girl kicked Touma's ass in the very first story and left him k.o. for 3 whole days .


Mikoto has the "I can by myself, but if I can't nobody else can" typical behaviour, that is what makes her weak in problems like this one. Maybe her power was useless against Accelerator but has she ever considered about the next in rank, the Number 2? Maybe there is no info about him but there is no way someone would reject the chance of defeating the strongest, even the #4 Mugino tried to take advantage of the situation to take down the third strongest.
kanzaki beast, that is all.
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Old 2013-07-21, 19:05   Link #168
Sackett
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Originally Posted by ninryu View Post
I fucking HATE this episode. The "hero in shining armor" comes to save the "damsel in distress" - it was said in the episode itself! Once again a strong character who happens to be a female is regressed to a crying and blushing mess to please those moe-shit loving fanboys.
Mikoto is portrayed as a poor weak girl who can't even protect herself, let alone save someone else, and needs the "big strong man" to swoop in to save the day whilst swooning into his arms.
One of the strongest espers of Academy City's Level 5s? Only before the man arrives into the picture, then she will go back to her natural place as a woman - waiting for the guy to do the job. SO. MUCH. HATE.
I predicted there would be someone who would react like that to this episode. Of course girls need role models so women should never require the help of a man. Too bad this is at odds with the very foundation of storytelling.

One of the reasons the Sister's Arc is so powerful is that it has a very classic story: The strong and powerful princess who learns that she can't do everything herself, and that yes, she needs a hero to rescue her. (It's also the type of story that goes very well with the Tsundere character type, as seen in stories with classic Tsundere characters from Akane Tendo to Asuka Langley).

I've seen several complaints about this aspect of the relationship between Touma and Mikoto. People complain that whenever Touma is around, Mikoto is turned into the helpless damsel who needs a hero to save her. (I'm sure Mikoto referring to herself as a damsel here will cause more heartburn for those critics.)

However, this isn't driven by a desire to show Mikoto as helpless. Rather it's about the relationship between Touma and Mikoto and evidence towards Mikoto being the main romantic interest for Touma.

If you read Booker's The Seven Basic Plots there is a lot of analysis about how important the relationship between the female lead and the male lead is to making a complete story. (Traditionally, happy endings end with a marriage, and tragic endings end with a funeral).

Mikoto is a fiercely independent girl. An essential part of her character development arc is her coming to accept that sometimes she needs help. This is combined with Touma as a romantic interest, and so Touma comes to symbolize her need for a male hero to be her match as a female heroine. As badass as she is, she is not complete without her male counterpart.

This is why Touma had several establishing character moments with Misaka in the first season of Railgun, (his initial meeting with Misaka, their fight on the riverbank, and his heroics during the early Level Upper arc), all of which have had flashbacks in Railgun's version of the Sisters Arc.

This is not a bad message. It's a very healthy message. Men and women need each other. Demanding that stories reject this reality is just a revolt against nature. Which is why stories keep on telling no matter how much people scream about it - it reflects an inherent aspect of human nature.

The problem isn't Mikoto needing help, the problem is Touma. Taken all together, Mikoto's development and her changing view of Touma has actually been handled very well.

On the other hand, Touma has not had a lot of character development himself. He always tries to get people to rely on him, but he won't rely on others. Touma ought to be moving in a similar arc towards realizing that he needs a heroine in his life who is matched well with him and can save him when he needs saving. (This is one of the reasons a lot of fanfiction has Touma actually call Mikoto and ask her for help with some problem, the fans instinctively realize that this is the important next step for Touma to develop properly).

Part of this is driven by the author's need to make Touma a semi-harem protagonist with multiple potential heroines, and Touma's resulting obliviousness to romance. As far as I can tell Mikoto is the only one that has been properly setup to truly play the other half role in a character development arc for Touma, (which is why Mikoto x Touma is the most popular pairing). The problem is that Touma is developing at glacier speed. Which always leaves open the possibility that one of the other heroines could shift into the romantic other half role.

This is why Railgun's Sisters Arcs is better then the Index version. In Railgun Mikoto is the main character and we see her development much better then Touma in Index. Additionally it's made more clear in Railgun that Touma needs Mikoto's help too. (See the next episode).
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Old 2013-07-21, 19:28   Link #169
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My take is a bit different. Hypothetically if Kamijo Touma were a female, then aside from the bit about him entering Mikoto's room, every single line of dialogue and inner thought used during the bridge scene would have stayed the same. The gender of the hero is irrelevant. If Mikoto had instead specifically implied the person rescuing her was male then you would have an argument. Calling Mikoto the damsel in distress is fitting but calling her a "poor weak girl who couldn't protect herself" would require you to ignore the past 10 or so episodes and throw away any of the context that has been established.
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Old 2013-07-21, 19:29   Link #170
Goldzero
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
I predicted there would be someone who would react like that to this episode. Of course girls need role models so women should never require the help of a man. Too bad this is at odds with the very foundation of storytelling.[...]
i never really did understood why some people had a major dislike towards touma but i guess this could be one of the many problems why he has quite the hate despite his popularity.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-07-21 at 23:50. Reason: Shortened quote
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Old 2013-07-21, 19:42   Link #171
Chaos2Frozen
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*shrugged*

Trust feminists to take a romantic scene and twist it into something ugly. This isn't the first time and it wouldn't be the last.
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Old 2013-07-21, 20:08   Link #172
lazydoggamer
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Originally Posted by ninryu View Post
I fucking HATE this episode. The "hero in shining armor" comes to save the "damsel in distress" - it was said in the episode itself! Once again a strong character who happens to be a female is regressed to a crying and blushing mess to please those moe-shit loving fanboys.
Mikoto is portrayed as a poor weak girl who can't even protect herself, let alone save someone else, and needs the "big strong man" to swoop in to save the day whilst swooning into his arms.
One of the strongest espers of Academy City's Level 5s? Only before the man arrives into the picture, then she will go back to her natural place as a woman - waiting for the guy to do the job. SO. MUCH. HATE.
*sigh* Overreacting much? What do you want Mikoto to do? She can't beat Accelerator and she already tried to stop the experiments but failed. What's wrong with a person, who happens to be a guy, helping her when she needs it because she was kinda considering suicide as an alternative. Nobody can do everything by themselves so quit hating just because your favorite character needed help. You sound like an icredibly paranoid feminist
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Old 2013-07-21, 20:13   Link #173
Marcus H.
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^ Let's not be too harsh to ninryu, but I think it's unfair to call Mikoto a "damsel in distress" just because someone unexpected comes to try to resolve something she can't on her own.

It has been established in the first season that she is "an independent woman who don't need no man". How she took on threats varying from thugs on the street to Kiyama-sensei makes her rather confident of what she has and what she can do. However, the Sisters Arc turns her into a fish out of the water by placing her in a situation that would really test everything she has. It's the perfect lesson to teach Mikoto — although it is a harsh reminder for her, there's no way she can do everything on her own. Touma just turns out to be a man with an unbreakable resolve, someone she can lean on when she realizes that she cannot do anything.
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Old 2013-07-21, 20:24   Link #174
Ilidsor
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I just don't understand why so many people latch on to this one moment and make such a big deal out of it when the fact is that Misaka has helped Touma and saved his life far more times than he has helped her. Most of the time Misaka is the one giving support to Touma and saving him when he can't do anything himself.
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Old 2013-07-21, 20:40   Link #175
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honestly while most people had enjoyed this moment between toumaxmisaka their is always quite a handful of people getting the wrong idea as to why kamijou decided to help her, it not because he is the man and decides he has to do it on hes own its because bribri is a friend to him and knew she needed help because she was backed up to a corner and couldn't figure out how to fix the situation and even goes to extreme measures such as "wanting to get herself killed by fighting accelerator and believing it well end the experiment while it certainly would not".
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Old 2013-07-22, 00:02   Link #176
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On the other hand, Touma has not had a lot of character development himself. He always tries to get people to rely on him, but he won't rely on others. Touma ought to be moving in a similar arc towards realizing that he needs a heroine in his life who is matched well with him and can save him when he needs saving. (This is one of the reasons a lot of fanfiction has Touma actually call Mikoto and ask her for help with some problem, the fans instinctively realize that this is the important next step for Touma to develop properly).
I totally agree with this point. I completely understand that the point of this arc was that Mikoto needed to realize that, no matter how strong they say she is, there are things she can't do, and sometimes it takes a "zero" to help her out of her despair. It's an important lesson in humility and relying on others that will help her grow into a much more balanced, competent leader in the end. And in the end, this will not single-handedly undermine her position as a strong character because this is not the end of the story. She will learn from this and she will grow, and it will no doubt impact how she approaches future situations. Needing to rely on him in this one case does not mean that she'll be hopelessly dependant upon him from now on.

But I am also sympathetic to the fact that it seems to play to a trope that is very uncomfortable to a lot of people due to the gender of the characters, and we only see this half of the equation play out without much reciprocity. I would indeed like to see an arc in the future where Touma needs to rely on Mikoto's help to solve a problem, and they work as a team. It's only unfortunate that they made this the first step, since the trope can provoke this reaction even if one can argue that "every strong woman needs an even stronger man to save them" isn't actually the point here (since Touma isn't actually stronger, just uniquely positioned to be of help, and inclined to do so).
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Old 2013-07-22, 10:20   Link #177
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
I predicted there would be someone who would react like that to this episode. Of course girls need role models so women should never require the help of a man. Too bad this is at odds with the very foundation of storytelling....

*snip!*
Interesting we can tell a little about her romantic inclinations from Kuroko. Notice how the teleporter hates looking weak in front of her, she thinks Mikoto only going to love someone who strong enough to stand beside her on the battlefield.

Which is likely why she doesn't mind getting electrocuted (must prove I can take being electrocuted!) when she could easily teleport away.

Last edited by Draco Spirit; 2013-07-22 at 10:21. Reason: typo
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Old 2013-07-22, 12:39   Link #178
greensoulreaper
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Originally Posted by Goldzero View Post
i never really did understood why some people had a major dislike towards touma but i guess this could be one of the many problems why he has quite the hate despite his popularity.
What surprises me the most is how not much is being said about Accelerator, even though he gives you a ton of solid reasons to hate him.
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Old 2013-07-22, 12:48   Link #179
ninryu
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What surprises me the most is how not much is being said about Accelerator, even though he gives you a ton of solid reasons to hate him.
The difference is that you hate Accelerator for his deeds as a character, as a person, Touma doesn't even have enough personality to be one. And you suppose to hate the character that murders innocents endlessly, but I'm pretty sure you're not suppose to hate the main character.

Anyway, I'm sure that if I started talking about why I hate Accelerator's guts (9982), The Noble Crusaders would jump at me anyhow.
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Old 2013-07-22, 12:53   Link #180
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Pretty hypocritical of you to say Touma has no character when you refuse to watch or read the main story to find out his character.
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