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Old 2013-07-22, 14:04   Link #8401
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
If Athrun had actually killed Kira, then regardless of whatever he did afterwords fans would hate him and only remember him as the bastard that killed Kira.

Nevermind the fact that the plot couldn't have worked that way.
-indeed > Athrun = ZAFT hero
-AA been destroyed in Alaska with 80% of ZAFT army
-ZAFT don't have reason to send Athrun to earth in Justice
- Orb without Freedom + AA + Justice help will easily lose to the EFA
-Raul will win by forcing both side to destroy each other
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Old 2013-07-22, 14:46   Link #8402
Admiral Larsen
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
-indeed > Athrun = ZAFT hero
-AA been destroyed in Alaska with 80% of ZAFT army
-ZAFT don't have reason to send Athrun to earth in Justice
- Orb without Freedom + AA + Justice help will easily lose to the EFA
-Raul will win by forcing both side to destroy each other
After what happened, it would have been welcomed. And besides, having the main hero die early or mid series would have perhaps shown that no one is safe.
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Old 2013-07-22, 14:59   Link #8403
Aquaman OS
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It also would have been marketing suicide.

Also nobody is safe and everyone dying was not a theme of Seed or Destiny at all.

And the TSA couldn't have existed with that since most of them would have died.

All it would have done was changed the hero side of the war to Zaft, which would have missed the whole point since Zaft was just as bad as EA in the end.
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Old 2013-07-22, 18:02   Link #8404
Deadpool2000
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Well, I don't see why they would kill Kira and then just keep the story identical and just see the consequences to Kira being dead. That's just not how fiction works.

If Kira is dead, then Archangel doesn't die. It miraculously survives somehow. Goes to Orb, meets Athrun there and he joins them. It wouldn't be that hard to write it.

Destiny would have turned out COMPLETELY different though, since Athrun overcoming his killing of Kira would have completely underminded Shinn's plot, so that would have needed a total overhaul. Of course, if I'm guessing right, Seed would NOT have been popular enough for a sequel, so moot point.

Hardest part would have been Rau. Without the Ultimate Coordinator thing to play off of, his revelation of being more than just a weirdo in mask would have been a lot more meaningless. It might still work, but it would take some maneuvering...
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Old 2013-07-22, 21:13   Link #8405
monster
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
If Kira is dead, then Archangel doesn't die. It miraculously survives somehow. Goes to Orb, meets Athrun there and he joins them.
The Archangel would've made it to Alaska even if Kira had died from the Aegis's explosion. That wouldn't change.

However, without Kira, the Archangel might not have survived the radiation from the Cyclops System. And even if it did managed to escape, Athrun still wouldn't have any reason to go to Orb or join the Archangel.

And without the Freedom and the Justice there, Orb might've lost before the Archangel and the Kusanagi could escape.

(Of course, the plot could be changed, but it would have to be a major change.)
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Old 2013-07-22, 21:39   Link #8406
Deadpool2000
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I wouldn't say major. They let them have the base, ZAFT takes the bait and focuses on the base, and it gives them enough of an opening to escape. Skip the scene with the GINN almost killing them all, delay the explosion a bit, maybe add some silliness about the Archangel getting a speed boost with its Lohengrin or some other random BS to escape the explosion if you feel like you must increase tension, and you're done.

As for Orb, just make the druggies not as good as they are now, and have Athrun handle them solo.

If you really wanted to keep things closer to the orignal, make Dearka defect earlier, prove himself to the Archangel, then be given some new experimental suit made by Orb before the Orb battle. Now we still have two coordinators in super awesome mobile suits.

Yes, the plot would have to change, but that's kind of the point...

Edit: Better yet, have Mu pilot new experimental Orb suit. Coordinator and Natural brought together by Kira's martyrdom. It'd even be a little poetic in a way.

Last edited by Deadpool2000; 2013-07-22 at 21:44. Reason: Better than double posting
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Old 2013-07-22, 21:52   Link #8407
monster
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I wouldn't say major.
I would. There is no way that the ZAFT forces would just ignore the Archangel at Alaska. That's one of the reasons why the Archangel was used as bait. Also, Athrun wouldn't even be at Orb if Kira hadn't taken the Freedom to Earth.
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Old 2013-07-22, 22:00   Link #8408
Deadpool2000
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Some of the forces DID ignore the Archangel. All you have to do is skip the GINN almost killing them and have them fight their way out.

Athrun goes to Orb to see if the EA gets the mass driver or not. He intervenes instead of observing.

This isn't a big stretch...
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Old 2013-07-22, 22:17   Link #8409
monster
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Some of the forces DID ignore the Archangel. All you have to do is skip the GINN almost killing them and have them fight their way out.
Could you point out where some forces specifically ignored the Archangel? Of course it's a big battle, so not everybody is going to target the Archangel. That doesn't mean the Archangel was ignored.

And then there's also Yzak, who would also target the Archangel. Not to mention, without Kira clearing the way, it's doubtful that the Archangel would've been able to fight its way out fast enough to escape the radiation.
Quote:
Athrun goes to Orb to see if the EA gets the mass driver or not. He intervenes instead of observing.
Patrick Zala wouldn't have bothered sending Athrun on an observation mission, especially when Rau's team (or any other ZAFT submarine) would've sufficed. He would send the Freedom and the Justice on a combat mission, where ZAFT forces are actually fighting.
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Old 2013-07-22, 22:54   Link #8410
Deadpool2000
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How is it doubtful? Archangel has survived battles they should have died before. They're the hero ship. Them fighting their way past the forces isn't internally INconsistant.

Without Kira there is no need for a ZAFT Freedom. It'd make more sense to make it an Orb suit and give it to someone else.

As for Athrun's mission, you could make it literally anything. Could just be chase down the Archangel again, and he decides to help them instead.

You keep following this idea that CE is some alternative universe where the events HAVE to follow exactly as they did, which just isn't how writing works.

Last edited by Deadpool2000; 2013-07-22 at 22:54. Reason: Typo
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Old 2013-07-22, 23:04   Link #8411
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Because you can't just remove a massive element like the main character and expect nothing to change, or the story to somehow make massive exceptions just to keep it going.

Athrun has no reason to defect without Kira. The Clyne Faction has no reason to be forced into action if not for being marked traitors because they gave Freedom to Kira. Etc Etc.

The story simply will not work as it did without Kira. He's too critical to it. Remove him at that point and EVERYTHING changes.
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Old 2013-07-22, 23:07   Link #8412
Deadpool2000
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Athrun defects because ZAFT is in the wrong and his father is insane. His doubts began after killing Kira, not after finding him alive.

Clyne Faction was already against Zala, and Zala was slowly losing his grip. Clyne gets vocal about anti war, Patrick kills him, Lacus goes underground and the rest works fine.

Things DO change obviously, but it would literally take less than an hour worth of rewrites to make it work well. Fifteen minutes if all you want is internal consistency.
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Old 2013-07-22, 23:12   Link #8413
Aquaman OS
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It would also be a massive stretch.

Athrun has no reason to work with these people he doesn't know and who he was trying to kill a few episodes ago. They have no reason to trust or want to work with the guy who basically killed their friend. Lacus has no reason to ally with these people she also barely knows, etc etc.

Kira was friends with Athrun Lacus and Cagalli seperately. He brought everyone together. Everyone coming together anyway, just because would be contrived to the point of stupidity.

More important Athrun killing Kira and getting away with it would make him due for massive karma for killing the nice guy hero of the show who didn't deserve to die and get no repreccusion for it.

It's like how the only reason Shinn didn't ending up dying horribly in Destiny was because all the people he "killed" ended up surviving.
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Old 2013-07-23, 00:33   Link #8414
Deadpool2000
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Athrun has Cagalli and Dearka as links to the Archangel and Orb. And his own link to Lacus.

It would not have been a stretch for Athrun to help Cagalli, nor for Cagalli to convince the Archangel to accept Athrun.
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Old 2013-07-23, 00:36   Link #8415
Rising Dragon
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Athrun would NOT be welcome among the crew of the Archangel if he had slain Kira. Cagalli may have forgiven him but he'd be responsible for the death of Kira and Tolle both, and it was Kira who got the crew to put aside their differences and thoughts of revenge due to Lacus' beliefs.
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Old 2013-07-23, 00:52   Link #8416
Deadpool2000
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They would only know Athrun killed Kira and Tolle if he or Cagalli told them... Which they would, eventually, but by then everyone would have accepted him already. Look at how easily the whole thing was skimmed over in the original. Cagalli could play Kira's place in the speech about not killing someone because they killed someone, and Miriallia would let it go just as easily.

Again, stop thinking this is some alternate universe. It's fiction. The characters act how the writers want them to. There is such a thing and internal incosistancy, but there is plenty of leeway.
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Old 2013-07-23, 01:01   Link #8417
Rising Dragon
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You're the one acting delusional and thinking everything will still be the same without the single most pivotal character in the cast.

Without Kira, Lacus doesn't have anyone to hand over the Freedom. Thus the family isn't considered traitors. Athrun isn't given the goal of chasing after Kira and the Freedom. Without these events, there's nothing to bring to light Patrick Zala's fanaticism and lunacy.

Without Kira, the Archangel and everyone on board will likely be destroyed. A GINN nearly took them out and there was no one there to blow it away to save them--Athrun certainly wouldn't; he wouldn't be there. There is no one to warn ZAFT about the Cyclops system that'll go off and obliterate everything. Even more lives would be lost. Only then would Athrun likely find himself in the event of allying with Lacus. But without Kira or Mu, there'd be new revelation at Mendel. There'd be no realization on just how messed up Rau Le Crueset is. And even more importantly there's no ship fully capable of taking on the Dominion, and less firepower to stop the nukes.

Without Kira, the war ends up obliterating humanity. It will NOT be the stalemate that it was with Kira alive. End of story.

Quit being delusional.
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Old 2013-07-23, 01:27   Link #8418
monster
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
How is it doubtful? Archangel has survived battles they should have died before. They're the hero ship. Them fighting their way past the forces isn't internally INconsistant.
The Archangel is a hero ship protected by a hero mobile suit that just lost its mobile suit and the hero piloting it. And remember, Alaska was the largest battle yet for the Archangel.
Quote:
Without Kira there is no need for a ZAFT Freedom. It'd make more sense to make it an Orb suit and give it to someone else.
That wouldn't make any sense considering Kira had to help them with the M1 Astray.
Quote:
As for Athrun's mission, you could make it literally anything. Could just be chase down the Archangel again, and he decides to help them instead.
The Archangel was his enemy, and without Kira, there's no reason for Athrun to join them without some very unusual circumstances.
Quote:
You keep following this idea that CE is some alternative universe where the events HAVE to follow exactly as they did, which just isn't how writing works.
I'm going by the hypothetical situation presented by Destined_Fate where Kira died in the Aegis explosion. Presumably, everything else up to that point remains the same, and we should still use that as a basis.
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Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Athrun defects because ZAFT is in the wrong and his father is insane. His doubts began after killing Kira, not after finding him alive.

Clyne Faction was already against Zala, and Zala was slowly losing his grip. Clyne gets vocal about anti war, Patrick kills him, Lacus goes underground and the rest works fine.
Athrun's doubt began after talking to Lacus, which was precipitated because Kira wanted to help. Without Kira, Lacus and her father would've likely used more legal means of voicing their complaints. The only reason they had to hide was because of the theft of the Freedom.
Quote:
Things DO change obviously, but it would literally take less than an hour worth of rewrites to make it work well. Fifteen minutes if all you want is internal consistency.
A rewrite would have to explain how the Archangel survived Alaska, why Lacus would be talking to Athrun, why Athrun would consider joining the Archangel, why Patrick Zala would bother with a deserting Archangel when he had the EA to worry about, not to mention you're talking about making Freedom an Orb mobile suit. Then there's the whole Ultimate Coordinator and Flay subjects, which would've had less of an impact without Kira. Altogether, it would have to be a major rewrite to the story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool2000 View Post
Athrun has Cagalli and Dearka as links to the Archangel and Orb. And his own link to Lacus.
Athrun doesn't even know Dearka is in the Archangel. Lacus barely even knew anything about the Archangel, especially if Kira had died and they couldn't spend time together.
Quote:
It would not have been a stretch for Athrun to help Cagalli, nor for Cagalli to convince the Archangel to accept Athrun.
He would still need a reason to even go to Orb. And without the theft of the Freedom, Patrick Zala would've focused on the war rather than the fate of a neutral nation like Orb.
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Old 2013-07-23, 01:48   Link #8419
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Speaking of Kira being killed off, Fukuda claimed that Seed's original ending was that Kira would have died in his duel vs. Rau, Athrun would lose an arm, and that Fllay was to have been a human bomb.

That didn't happen due to the popularity of the main characters, and that the fanbase would have rioted over this.
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Old 2013-07-23, 02:16   Link #8420
Deadpool2000
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
You're the one acting delusional and thinking everything will still be the same without the single most pivotal character in the cast.
I didn't say the same. I said it wouldn't take a lot of work.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Without these events, there's nothing to bring to light Patrick Zala's fanaticism and lunacy.
Do you remember how he died? Guy who shot him wasn't involved in ANY of those events.

Patrick Zala's fanaticism and lunacy was self evident. Uzumi figured it out. From pretty much another planet.

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Without Kira, the war ends up obliterating humanity. It will NOT be the stalemate that it was with Kira alive. End of story.
This is not an alternate universe. It doesn't exist outside of the writer's mind. There is exactly zero chance the war ends up obliterating humanity. The only question is how difficult it would be to make it internally consistant.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
And remember, Alaska was the largest battle yet for the Archangel.
So? Be real, if the Archangel managed to pull through, would you REALLY have gone "whelp, this is bullshit and this show makes zero sense!"?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
That wouldn't make any sense considering Kira had to help them with the M1 Astray.
Kira's help was the OS. Remember, they did manage to design the Akatsuki in the interim, so they are not lacking in technical capability or manpower. They designed the last couple of Gundams and they have plenty of data on them. And they have their own Coordinators.

They have the means, the data, the tech, the supplies and the reason to have a Gundam. Every superpower has made some. Orb NOT making new gen Gundams makes less sense actually.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
The Archangel was his enemy, and without Kira, there's no reason for Athrun to join them without some very unusual circumstances.
Orb is Cagalli's place, and they were defending a Mass Driver, which, if the EA got, would create trouble for ZAFT.

Cagalli is reason enough for him to help Orb. And him helping Orb is reason enough for the Archangel to accept him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
I'm going by the hypothetical situation presented by Destined_Fate where Kira died in the Aegis explosion. Presumably, everything else up to that point remains the same, and we should still use that as a basis.
Sure, but things would change afterwards obviously. The discussion is how hard making these changes realistic would be.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Athrun's doubt began after talking to Lacus,
That would have been the talk he had with Cagalli where he cries over killing his friend.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Without Kira, Lacus and her father would've likely used more legal means of voicing their complaints.
Until Zala has Clyne killed.

He was unhinged and mad with grief. The theft of the Freedom was a great excuse, but it wasn't really needed. We could have him order Clyne's death just by spreading anti war propaganda, ie being a traitor.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
A rewrite would have to explain how the Archangel survived Alaska,
Already did. They fight their way out. It's a fast, capable ship. It out maneuvers the units, it runs away like hell. Internally consistent.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
why Lacus would be talking to Athrun
Her father dead, she goes into hiding, Athrun tries to find her.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
why Athrun would consider joining the Archangel
He would join ORB.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
why Patrick Zala would bother with a deserting Archangel when he had the EA to worry about
Uneeded but... He's crazy? He hates them? Athrun manipulates him into it? He's worried about Orb? He'd rather Athrun keep a personal eye on the battle instead?

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
not to mention you're talking about making Freedom an Orb mobile suit.
Which doesn't take any work.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Then there's the whole Ultimate Coordinator and Flay subjects, which would've had less of an impact without Kira.
Rau would be the biggest change. Fllay would still fit the same role except for dying (she may or may not die, it would be irrelvant to the story).

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Altogether, it would have to be a major rewrite to the story.
I already did an outline of most of it in about a minute? This is a major overhaul here.

Rau is the most difficult part.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Athrun doesn't even know Dearka is in the Archangel.
He knows he's captured, he can see the Buster fighting. Not much of a stretch.

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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Lacus barely even knew anything about the Archangel,
Athrun took Lacus to the Archangel in the original. Not much need for change here.
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