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Old 2013-07-20, 14:42   Link #521
Sauzer
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Spoiler for first half of ep2:


Supernatural bits are very interesting and fun, but will probably have to ignore all of them when simply trying to salve the murders of... human world?

With that said Beatrice actually being there and talking with Kanon and Shannon for real, does kinda sound more interesting ^^

In fact.. More like, maybe it's better to read this as if all this magic does happen for real, with murders still being possible by humans simply a device to keep these events it somewhat anchored to reality?

Very conflicted in how I'm supposed to be reading this. On one hand I'm supposed to solve murders without relying on magic, which in turn means I'm supposed to disregard all the "cool" magic stuff as false by default. Which also means more and more of stuff "shown" is a blatant lie. Daaamn.

Confused/conflicted.
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Old 2013-07-20, 14:46   Link #522
Witch of Uncertainty
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It's very fun to read your readings. I hope you will continue to post it.
And in regards to magic. If you do not believe in it, maybe there's something else it's trying to tell you.
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Old 2013-07-20, 14:58   Link #523
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Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
It's very fun to read your readings. I hope you will continue to post it.
And in regards to magic. If you do not believe in it, maybe there's something else it's trying to tell you.
Maybe in hindsight you might find "something else", but at most I could guess (as my example with Shannon) is conversations with Beatrice are conversations with themselves? Reflections? mirror from Shrine? the whole shattering glass theme? Was I supposed to keep track of everytime glass shatters in the game?
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Old 2013-07-21, 05:48   Link #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Maybe in hindsight you might find "something else", but at most I could guess (as my example with Shannon) is conversations with Beatrice are conversations with themselves? Reflections? mirror from Shrine? the whole shattering glass theme? Was I supposed to keep track of everytime glass shatters in the game?
It's great that you think outside the box (you'll get the irony at one point), just try to find a theory and try to think it through, but don't disregard totally that your ideas might be leading you to a dead end.

Quote:
Which also means more and more of stuff "shown" is a blatant lie. Daaamn.
Don't forget though that there is a lot of space between the literal truth and a blatant lie. Instead of saying "it's sunny" I could say "it's not raining", am I lying or telling the truth about the fact that the sun is shining?
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Old 2013-07-21, 16:31   Link #525
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Spoiler for finished ep2. notes during reading:


Spoiler for Considerations about EP1 Murders:


Spoiler for Speculations on ep2 "puzzles":


Maybe something will come to mind later. But next week will be extremly busy, so doubt will be able to

Last edited by Sauzer; 2013-07-21 at 16:52.
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Old 2013-07-21, 18:01   Link #526
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Regarding one of your points:
In _Rocket to the Morgue_ by H. H. Holmes (a pen name for Anthony Bouncher), a character claimed that Boucher had an open challenge that, for any mystery where it was claimed a death was suicide because nobody could get a knife or gun into that position, that Boucher could duplicate that feat, and nobody ever collected on him. (I don't know whether Boucher actually made such a claim, or whether anyone collected on him, though.)
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Old 2013-07-21, 19:40   Link #527
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well in the main menu the difficulty for EP2 is "very hard". And it actually is true. EP2 really is supposed to mess with your head. EP3 will give more hints than EP2 so look forward to that!

And before I forget it: There actually is a list of red truths, but since on the same page there are the red truths of ALL episodes (even EP8) I'll rather copy&paste the EP2 red truths here:

Spoiler for Red truths for EP2 'Turn of the golden Witch':
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Old 2013-07-22, 05:21   Link #528
Sauzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Regarding one of your points:
In _Rocket to the Morgue_ by H. H. Holmes (a pen name for Anthony Bouncher), a character claimed that Boucher had an open challenge that, for any mystery where it was claimed a death was suicide because nobody could get a knife or gun into that position, that Boucher could duplicate that feat, and nobody ever collected on him. (I don't know whether Boucher actually made such a claim, or whether anyone collected on him, though.)
Hm. Maybe my english is bad, but I really don't get is it about "claiming that death was a suicide because noone can get a weapon into that room to kill the person" or "it can't be a suicide because noone can get a weapon into that position"?

Maybe answering would be too much of a hint..

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
well in the main menu the difficulty for EP2 is "very hard". And it actually is true. EP2 really is supposed to mess with your head. EP3 will give more hints than EP2 so look forward to that!
so ep3 is supposed to be easier and give much more hints to solve the crimes?
Suddenly I don't want to read ep3, while my ep2 is in such a state

One thing I noticed is that I was eventually very sad that "chapel closed door" was solved for me. At first I'm like: "uhuh, makes sense, cool!", and like two hours later "daaamn I could've solved that, that was clearly the easiest puzzle". Felt almost cheated

A bit ashamed in this my performance, when in ep1 I at least had a plausable theory or two. Hm.. Gonna try a Higurashi approach
Spoiler for Higurashi approach:


Need to think more.
Will not read ep3 untill I have at least one theory that is somewhere in the "plausibly not completely impossible" realm.
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Old 2013-07-22, 07:45   Link #529
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About Battler's POV not being reliable at the end: Don't forget that he drank a LOT of alcohol... golden Butterflies you would rather see with other kinds of drugs, but oh well...
also the "hints" from EP3 can be misleading you as well, so it depends on how you interpret and use them.
Also you should absolutely not rely on Battler too much to solve the murders, as this Battler is incompetent.

If you want to solve something you should rather try EP1 again, as most of those murders were solvable by using logic alone, but for EP2 you really should read on... else you will just get a headache.
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Last edited by GreyZone; 2013-07-22 at 08:07.
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Old 2013-07-22, 08:53   Link #530
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So what if Battler drank a lot of alcohol? No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo! (全ての人物は右代宮金蔵を見間違わない。 いかなる変装であったとしても、右代宮金蔵を見間違わない!
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Old 2013-07-22, 13:07   Link #531
Sauzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
About Battler's POV not being reliable at the end: Don't forget that he drank a LOT of alcohol... golden Butterflies you would rather see with other kinds of drugs, but oh well...
also the "hints" from EP3 can be misleading you as well, so it depends on how you interpret and use them.
Also you should absolutely not rely on Battler too much to solve the murders, as this Battler is incompetent.

If you want to solve something you should rather try EP1 again, as most of those murders were solvable by using logic alone, but for EP2 you really should read on... else you will just get a headache.
So you're telling me to give up and accept that some silly magic exists? Like hell I will!

Spoiler for More theories:
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Old 2013-07-22, 15:52   Link #532
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@rogerpepitone: This is the EP2 thread! Please refrain from using red truths from later episodes! I could "correct" the theory a little bit to appease your red truth, but then I would go into spoiler territory myself as well...

@Sauzer: I never asked you to accept magic, I just recommend you to leave EP2 aside for now and move on to EP3 (or at least just focus on EP1 for now), as you are missing a lot of context. The author of Umineko himself admitted that "he made EP2 too hard"... Actually if you don't know a certain few things then it could become VERY hard to solve anything at all. You can try to solve EP2 later on. Also if you focus just on "how" the murders happen, then your chances to solve the murders without reading on are very very slim. If you take everything into account your chances are still very slim.

Also be aware: Later on Beatrice will shoot a lot of Battler's theories down - and yours as well.
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Old 2013-07-22, 16:05   Link #533
Sauzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
@rogerpepitone: This is the EP2 thread! Please refrain from using red truths from later episodes!

@Sauzer: I never asked you to accept magic, I just recommend you to leave EP2 aside for now and move on to EP3, as you are missing a lot of context. The author of Umineko himself admitted that "he made EP2 too hard"... Actually if you don't know a certain few things then it could become VERY hard to solve anything at all. You can try to solve EP2 later on. Also if you focus just on "how" the murders happen, then you chances to solve the murders without reading on are very very slim. If you take everything into account your chances are still very slim.

Also be aware: Later on Beatrice will shoot a lot of Battler's theories down - and yours as well.
ah, that's fine ^^

I don't actaully want to solve everything and be correct about everything. If I could do that, then it wouldnt make for much of a mystery.

I just wanted to make a plausable theory or two, that would make some sense to myself so that I could say to myself "yep, I tried and it made sense at the time".

So rather than just saying "I don't have a clue". I say "If this goes here and this does that for whatever reason, it's plausable". As long as it's "plausable" I'm already happy that it made some sense for me, even if Im wrong later.

So even though by the way you said to try and solve ep1, it implied that my theories are wrong, I don't feel like taking another shot at it at the moment. because unless someone pokes at it directly saying: "your theory in ep2 is completly false because in ep2 X did Z, which means Rosa was clearly reading a book to Maria at the time of the murders my theory is still plausable. and I don't see a reason to poke holes in what I already view as "possible without magic".

So I've already read a tiny bit of ep3
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Old 2013-07-22, 16:13   Link #534
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
ah, that's fine ^^

I don't actaully want to solve everything and be correct about everything. If I could do that, then it wouldnt make for much of a mystery.

I just wanted to make a plausable theory or two, that would make some sense to myself so that I could say to myself "yep, I tried and it made sense at the time".

So rather than just saying "I don't have a clue". I say "If this goes here and this does that for whatever reason, it's plausable". As long as it's "plausable" I'm already happy that it made some sense for me, even if Im wrong later.

So even though by the way you said to try and solve ep1, it implied that my theories are wrong, I don't feel like taking another shot at it at the moment. because unless someone pokes at it directly saying: "your theory in ep2 is completly false because in ep2 X did Z, which means Rosa was clearly reading a book to Maria at the time of the murders my theory is still plausable. and I don't see a reason to poke holes in what I already view as "possible without magic".

So I've already read a tiny bit of ep3
Actually some of your theories for EP1 were quite good. They were not "correct" but they were not "completely wrong" either. It shows that the red truth and the whole "magic show" is very confusing and taking away the attention to where it matters. Well you got spoiled already that Battler is the only "reliable" POV aside from red truth, so that makes it a lot easier for you. Well there was still that scene at the end of EP2 where Battler saw golden butterflies, but I'll simply leave you with that, as more spoilers would be just taking away from the enjoyment at this point.
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Old 2013-07-23, 01:35   Link #535
Sauzer
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Actually some of your theories for EP1 were quite good. They were not "correct" but they were not "completely wrong" either. It shows that the red truth and the whole "magic show" is very confusing and taking away the attention to where it matters. Well you got spoiled already that Battler is the only "reliable" POV aside from red truth, so that makes it a lot easier for you. Well there was still that scene at the end of EP2 where Battler saw golden butterflies, but I'll simply leave you with that, as more spoilers would be just taking away from the enjoyment at this point.
hm. about Battlers POV, I guess it does. I'd be very much stuck otherwise. In Shannon's/Beatrice discussion they teleport from the garden to the beach, so it's either magic or... they were simply walking from the garden to the beach

Hm. And it is an interesting point if red truth is actually a distraction from the truth. Oh, the irony

Either way I enjoyed ep2 very much. And the ending with Rosa and Maria running from the island was so many epics. Probably my favorite part of ep2. Found the soundtrack and listening to it right now.

Rosa was already a character I liked, and this ep solidified her as one of the favs. Hope there's more of her. However considering there are 18 characters that need to get a spotlight.. And that's only the "human" characters! so guess not
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Old 2013-07-23, 02:06   Link #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Hm. And it is an interesting point if red truth is actually a distraction from the truth. Oh, the irony
I would rather say it like this: You can play around even with the most truest of truths.

My car crashed.
My car crashed into a tree.
I crashed my car into a tree.
Somebody in my car was drunk when I crashed into a tree.
Somebody in my car was drunk when I crashed that same car into a tree.
I was alone in my car when it crashed into a tree.


All point towards the same event but tell it in a very different light and leave more or less room to think around them. Don't forget that the red is not necessarily there to help you, but also to make you stumble.

Never forget, this is a torture that is supposed to pain you for all eternity.
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Old 2013-07-23, 03:16   Link #537
Sauzer
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I would rather say it like this: You can play around even with the most truest of truths.

My car crashed.
My car crashed into a tree.
I crashed my car into a tree.
Somebody in my car was drunk when I crashed into a tree.
Somebody in my car was drunk when I crashed that same car into a tree.
I was alone in my car when it crashed into a tree.


All point towards the same event but tell it in a very different light and leave more or less room to think around them. Don't forget that the red is not necessarily there to help you, but also to make you stumble.

Never forget, this is a torture that is supposed to pain you for all eternity.
So either way you have to be a friggin' lawyer with Beato.

However now that I re-read red truths I noticed one more thing.
Spoiler for red truth:
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Old 2013-07-23, 03:51   Link #538
GreyZone
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So either way you have to be a friggin' lawyer with Beato.

However now that I re-read red truths I noticed one more thing.
Spoiler for red truth:
The door and the windows were locked from the inside, so any extra keys are irrelevant.
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Old 2013-07-23, 05:07   Link #539
Sauzer
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The door and the windows were locked from the inside, so any extra keys are irrelevant.
*facepalm* Looks like I'm grasping at straws at this point.

Spoiler for ep2 hints:
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Old 2013-07-23, 23:04   Link #540
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Quote:
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*facepalm* Looks like I'm grasping at straws at this point.
I think that's the feeling we all had after EP2, but I would really heed GreyZone's advice and maybe also go back to EP1 and test some of your ideas there.

Quote:
In Natsuhi's room George is the only one with a wound that shouldn't be instantly lethal. So it could be possible that Gohda kills Shannon and wounds George, George kills Gohda and succumbs to his wounds. The murders stop after Gohda is killed.
The question that remains here though is the same you asked as well, what about the stakes? Did Gohda place them? If yes, in your theory, why is George also staked? Did George put the stake into his own wound before dying in order to cover something up?

You have some very good ideas in terms of how murders could have been committed, but the question is also why and how things are connected.
If it was Gohda, why did he murder the parents? How did he kill them all?
If it was Jessica, why would she go so far to murder even her own parents and the person she seems to love?

I'm not saying anything you said is right or wrong, just that you should also try to draw a bigger picture except looking at individual closed rooms. Just see the whole island as one large closed room.
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