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Old 2013-07-26, 18:37   Link #101
zarqu
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Tsubasa was one my least favourite characters after watching Bakemonogatari. "Least favourite" doesn't mean I disliked her, more like she didn't really leave much of an impression, at least compared to the others (Senjougahara fascination was still strong back then).

Reading Kizumonogatari and Neko Shiro made me really like her more as a character. Especially Nekomonogatari.
Spoiler for Nekomonogatari Shiro epilogue:
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Old 2013-07-26, 20:05   Link #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
Tsubasa was one my least favourite characters after watching Bakemonogatari. "Least favourite" doesn't mean I disliked her, more like she didn't really leave much of an impression, at least compared to the others (Senjougahara fascination was still strong back then).

Reading Kizumonogatari and Neko Shiro made me really like her more as a character. Especially Nekomonogatari.
Spoiler for Nekomonogatari Shiro epilogue:
I almost clicked that
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Old 2013-07-27, 01:50   Link #103
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Note her starting monologue about this arc in ep 1?
This is about someone who is a girl, a cat, and a tiger.
Nah, she is only a girl, the cat and the tiger are only oddities that are directly possessing her.
Well, until now, only the cat has been directly doing so, the tiger is only what we could say, a "Normal oddity" of hers.

Yes, it is a bit more interesting to see a person being possessed by two different oddities, but her personality and presentation are just boring. xD
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Old 2013-07-27, 02:30   Link #104
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Haiprbim View Post
Nah, she is only a girl, the cat and the tiger are only oddities that are directly possessing her.
Well, until now, only the cat has been directly doing so, the tiger is only what we could say, a "Normal oddity" of hers.

Yes, it is a bit more interesting to see a person being possessed by two different oddities, but her personality and presentation are just boring. xD
We will talk again when this arc is over. Can't really discus the ending of this arc yet.
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Old 2013-08-03, 23:19   Link #105
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To me she is the most fascinating character. The ending of ep 5 almost made me cry. Best episode of the new season <3
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Old 2013-08-04, 00:08   Link #106
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So yeah, now that the ep aired... We have direct confirmation that Hanekawa isn't "boring", she just was an incomplete humanbeing. And that she got her full self back at the end.
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Old 2013-08-05, 12:22   Link #107
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One must either be a mindless fanboy of XXX-character or braindead to have not figured out how complicated Tsubasa's story is... anyway, despite loving the episode, it didn't go the way I wished... no trip, another try on her hopeless family and "friend-zoning" ドM
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Old 2013-08-05, 14:08   Link #108
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
One must either be a mindless fanboy of XXX-character or braindead to have not figured out how complicated Tsubasa's story is... anyway, despite loving the episode, it didn't go the way I wished... no trip, another try on her hopeless family and "friend-zoning" ドM
I don't understand. What do you mean "another try" with her family? She never tried before. This is the first time.

The point is it was easy to demand better treatment. She just had to ask.

And friend zoning? You do realise that Araragi has a girlfriend right?
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Old 2013-08-06, 04:35   Link #109
zeando
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And friend zoning? You do realise that Araragi has a girlfriend right?
Hanekawa and Araragi knew each other before he had a girlfriend, so in the end Hanekawa got really friendzoned.

guess it'll take kizu airing (wonder when..) for people to finally realize all the story
they should have really aired it before the second season


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One must either be a mindless fanboy of XXX-character or braindead to have not figured out how complicated Tsubasa's story is
intuition is not such a common trait..
but some others just refuse to empatize with some characters they decided for themselfes they don't like
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Old 2013-08-06, 04:54   Link #110
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Originally Posted by zeando View Post
intuition is not such a common trait..
but some others just refuse to empatize with some characters they decided for themselfes they don't like
Can you tell me what are some of the things that you were able to empathize about how Tsubasa went about her life until this intervention from Koyomi in episode 5 of Monogatari Series? I can also tell you that just by going with intuition wouldn't yield a good response cause empathy isn't an intuitive thing. It's a feeling which is evoked when one comes to understand (may even relate to) another person from an emotional stand point. The show is also about exposing characters for all their strength and weaknesses, so keep that in mind if you decide to respond to my question.

Agreeing with Malkuth doesn't count. He is a shipper, so he might not have been all that objective.
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Old 2013-08-06, 06:20   Link #111
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Araragi could have ended up with any character if the author wanted so. The character he ended up with (Senjougahara) is arguably not really better suited as his girlfriend than her major rival (Hanekawa, or Shinobu according to some people) is. However, I think people are having the wrong perspective on the matter. The first season of Monogatari is not actually about Araragi and a girl, Senjougahara, getting together. That is, it is not about their love story, which is merely an incipit, a plot device. The real plot of Monogatari was about Araragi and Hanekawa NOT getting together. Senjougahara, as joked by Nisio, is a heroine in name only. The one actually driving the plot behind the scenes was always Hanekawa, and as such she got featured as a main character in three books beside Tsubasa Cat. The final novel of the first season, Neko Black, has Araragi getting taught how to love by Hanekawa right before he met Senjougahara, making all that happened in Bake a wave caused by Hanekawa.

Hanekawa is not destined to end up with Araragi, she is supposed to be victim of a bittersweet NTR all the time, because this is the plot of the first season of Monogatari. In the end her character development could only end on this point. The point of Hanekawa is to be a tragic character. All we are supposed to do is to feel compassion for her. People who can't see this miss the point of the story.
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Old 2013-08-06, 09:09   Link #112
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We could say, she is a plotter caught in her own plot.

Or maybe one of the reasons is that she chose to willingly forget that which she doesnt like. In the process she willingly avoided the flags that were given to her.

One such example is the moment when Tsukihi by herself tells her about the advice Araragi sought of them. Its in this moment when she understands that if she wants to live a more normal life she must stop.
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Old 2013-08-07, 02:17   Link #113
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I disagree that Bakemonogatari story was mainly driven by Hanekawa. It's true that she was one of the reason why Araragi became this way. But besides of her arc, I just couldn't see how the story of Bakemonogatari had that much impact from her. I'd say that you can see it both ways. If the story was about how Araragi didn't get together with Hanekawa then it could also be said that it was the story about how Araragi could get together with Senjougahara. It may be true that Hanekawa caused Araragi to know about love. But if Senjougahara didn't approach him then his knowing about love would never go anyway. Judging from his personality, he would become just another harem leader which was unable to resolve with any girls around him. And it could easily take forever (if possible) for Hanekawa, at that time, to confess to Araragi.
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Old 2013-08-07, 07:16   Link #114
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Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
I disagree that Bakemonogatari story was mainly driven by Hanekawa. It's true that she was one of the reason why Araragi became this way. But besides of her arc, I just couldn't see how the story of Bakemonogatari had that much impact from her.
True, but that's because Bake didn't follow the chronological order. Hanekawa had a big impact on Araragi in the prequels.

The climax of the two Bake books is about how the love story of Araragi and Senjougahara affected Hanekawa. This is different from the standard story structure where the two leads get together at the end of the book. Here Senjougahara and Araragi got together almost immediately, because that was needed as a setup to reveal the rest of the story.

This is the difference between plot and story. The plot of Bake starts with Araragi meeting Senjougahara. The story of Bake is Araragi and Hanekawa not getting together. They got acquainted and shared many supernatural adventures, but they didn't end up as a couple.

Bake was basically the end of the story. Kizu was the start, Neko Black the inbetween, and Nise the epilogue. Except that of course the story continued even after Nise, and that's why Nisio had to bring forth a new set of characters for the other seasons.
Quote:
I'd say that you can see it both ways. If the story was about how Araragi didn't get together with Hanekawa then it could also be said that it was the story about how Araragi could get together with Senjougahara.
Quantitatively, there are more lines about Hanekawa than about Senjougahara. That's why I say the story of the first season of Monogatari is about her. It is an objective fact.
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It may be true that Hanekawa caused Araragi to know about love. But if Senjougahara didn't approach him then his knowing about love would never go anyway.
He could have met any girl, but that's not the point.
Quote:
Judging from his personality, he would become just another harem leader which was unable to resolve with any girls around him. And it could easily take forever (if possible) for Hanekawa, at that time, to confess to Araragi.
But then we wouldn't have the tsundere character winning the love triangle, and we wouldn't have the victim. What ifs are meaningless. Nisio chose the characters and the story.
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Old 2013-08-07, 21:48   Link #115
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True, but that's because Bake didn't follow the chronological order. Hanekawa had a big impact on Araragi in the prequels.

The climax of the two Bake books is about how the love story of Araragi and Senjougahara affected Hanekawa. This is different from the standard story structure where the two leads get together at the end of the book. Here Senjougahara and Araragi got together almost immediately, because that was needed as a setup to reveal the rest of the story.
In general I agree with what you're saying, but I guess I would only emphasize that setting the story up this way was important as well, beyond simply being a "setup". In a way, it emphasizes the theme of the story, because the Koyomi story we're presented starts with him meeting Hitagi, and this is our introduction to his world. This is itself a start of a new story for him. We see later that this isn't really what started it, and there's a whole backstory that really has a lot more to do with Tsubasa than Hitagi or anyone else (arguably except Shinobu). The narrative itself seems to downplay Tsubasa at first (though teases at her role), and you grow to understand over time how much deeper her story goes -- and how she's really the protagonist of this parallel narrative that intersects Koyomi's story a whole lot. But in the end, her narrative is only a parallel, and it (essentially) comes to an end.

So if the reader/viewer perceives Hitagi as a larger driving-force of the first act (season) than she really is, it's not entirely by accident either. If you were to retell the whole story in chronological order, it'd take a whole different flavour on the whole... but that isn't the way it was told, and I don't think that was by accident. This isn't trying to contest your overall argument that the first act/season is really more about a door being closed than the one that was opened.
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Old 2013-08-08, 04:15   Link #116
Shikijin
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So if the reader/viewer perceives Hitagi as a larger driving-force of the first act (season) than she really is, it's not entirely by accident either. If you were to retell the whole story in chronological order, it'd take a whole different flavour on the whole... but that isn't the way it was told, and I don't think that was by accident. This isn't trying to contest your overall argument that the first act/season is really more about a door being closed than the one that was opened.
Yeah, I may have exaggerated my point a bit in the end. As I stated earlier, the story is a "bittersweet NTR", in that the reason why Araragi and Hanekawa didn't get together was ultimately because Araragi got himself a girlfriend. If Nisio chose to narrate things in that order it was because he specifically wanted the "boy meets (tsundere) girl" angle. Senjougahara influenced Araragi's chara development too, and she also helped developing the story (Mayoi and Kanbaru arcs).

This aside though, I wanted people to understand that Hanekawa is a character you have to deal with, so if you manage to empathize with her you may enjoy the story better. The author likely wanted you to think "I wish Araragi dated Hanekawa instead" at one point or another.

(Though this is different from actually wanting Araragi and Hanekawa together. It's like in Oscar Wilde's aphorism: "This suspense is terrible. I hope it will last")
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Old 2013-08-08, 04:28   Link #117
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The author made it clear that Araragi is a horny boy who, despite his loyalty to the girl he is dating, still involuntarily say and do things by instinct. Mayoi is just a more blatant case of it, but in general Araragi stays horny with all the girls he hangs around with.

He has declared that he can't be Hanekawa's boyfriend. But paradoxically he never stops being attracted to her body and still fantasies doing lewd things to her even in recent books. The perplexing thing is that if he truly wants to have sex with her he could have. All the more clear that Araragi keeps his "love" and his "lust" in entirely separate parts of his brain, and they don't mingle.

This is more appropriate for the Araragi thread. But I find it enduring that Araragi was able to reject a woman he has such strong physical attractions towards. A case of the mind over-rulling the body.
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Old 2013-08-09, 06:55   Link #118
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Yep. I agree that if the story was told in different order then it could totally change the impression of viewers (still prefer Kissshot over Hanekawa though). But even so, I don't think that I would take it as a fact that Bake story is all about Hanekawa. It's because no Senjougahara = no Bake story. In a sense, you could select x girl here to replace Senjougahara as Araragi's girlfriend and the story would continue from that point. Or else there is no continuing to the story in a Bake perspective. Araragi had girlfriend helped progressing the story and also triggered many events. It was not all about Hanekawa's stress and jealousy.

I really like the ending of Neko Shiro when she asked her parent for her room. If she was able to do that from the start then her life would be easier than this. Hanekawa could easily take Araragi as her boyfriend if she could just ask him. But that would never happen due to her character. There is no helping it because her character was developed this way.

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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
He could have met any girl, but that's not the point.
But then we wouldn't have the tsundere character winning the love triangle, and we wouldn't have the victim. What ifs are meaningless. Nisio chose the characters and the story.
It doesn't have to be Senjougahara. My point is that Araragi needs an aggressive girl to approach him because he is such an M character. If other new girls just do the waiting and hoping for him to confess to her first then I'm not sure how many volume it takes to reach that point.
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Old 2013-08-10, 12:59   Link #119
zeando
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Can you tell me what are some of the things that you were able to empathize about how Tsubasa went about her life until this intervention from Koyomi in episode 5 of Monogatari Series?
only about the second season or also the first one?

in the first one it was the almost always present careful detachment she had, and the rare times she broke out of those, or got distracted/taken by surprise
the careful detachment was like she was always planning each single little action she was going to do, it could be said her being too much brainy about every little thing
Spoiler for kizu:


in the second season, seeing it from her point of view, it was the continuous anxiety and grief, with a bit of determination and hope(only in the last part) to take care of herself, and the actual spiteful remarks she was always thinking but that in the previous season it was all unsaid and only hinted

perfectionist characters are interesting for me, cause (if they're well shaped up) there is always a screw backdoor for them to drop all their imperfections in, that makes them generally mysterious characters, and i like mysterious characters


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I can also tell you that just by going with intuition wouldn't yield a good response cause empathy isn't an intuitive thing.
those are separate matters
intuition to be able to see the obvious foreshadowing/hype of hanekawa's role and influence, it was visible from the first time she got introduced in the story, and later with the prequels and sequels that intuition got confirmed
empathy, to try to feel the strange/unusual state of mind she was in, and don't just skip over like some looked to have done by their comments (not here specifically)

when i got both the feel(or intuition if you like) there was foreshadowing/hype and also saw the character had an odd/unusual state of mind i got curious and payed more attention to any occurrence she had in the story
someone skipping over would miss all this, ironically cause they avert their eyes like the theme of the story of hanekawa

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Agreeing with Malkuth doesn't count. He is a shipper, so he might not have been all that objective.
shippers (and/or character fans) can be accused of exagerating or even making up things about their fav characters, but if one is able to filter out all the exagerations, they're actually pretty reliable when it comes about noticing details about the characters they pay so much attention, which somethimes could be missed by an other neutral and/or detached watcher


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Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
But even so, I don't think that I would take it as a fact that Bake story is all about Hanekawa.
"all about" would be an exageration, but if there is a second protagonist hanekawa is very close to be one

Quote:
Originally Posted by zato_1one View Post
It's because no Senjougahara = no Bake story
Spoiler for kizu:

Last edited by zeando; 2013-08-10 at 15:11.
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Old 2013-08-10, 14:12   Link #120
Shikijin
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The author made it clear that Araragi is a horny boy who, despite his loyalty to the girl he is dating, still involuntarily say and do things by instinct.
In a book he states that he does so only to elicit laughter from the audience. Sometimes it is really dubious whether that's really the case though But even the others sometimes are all acting a character in a way or the other. It's Nisio's way to bridge reality and anime cliches.
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The perplexing thing is that if he truly wants to have sex with her he could have.
He could have even before meeting Senjougahara actually, so it is not really an issue of self-control
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But I find it enduring that Araragi was able to reject a woman he has such strong physical attractions towards.
Yeah, he was definitely a boob man. The more I think about it, the more the plot of Monogatari sounds less and less believable
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But even so, I don't think that I would take it as a fact that Bake story is all about Hanekawa. It's because no Senjougahara = no Bake story.
The Monogatari series as a whole is about Araragi. The cycle of the first season features actually more Hanekawa than Senjougahara. Senjougahara is featured the most only in Bakemonogatari, which is only a small part of the series, though certainly it has its importance since it's the official beginning.

Well, that was a paradoxical view anyway, but I hope I have made people think about the importance of Hanekawa more seriously.
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I really like the ending of Neko Shiro when she asked her parent for her room. If she was able to do that from the start then her life would be easier than this.
It's not like she couldn't ask for a room, she just saw no need to, because she was abnormal.

This part was a typical Nisio anticlimax, actually. In Neko Black Araragi assumes Hanekawa having no room to be the epitome of child abuse, while in Neko White we learn that Hanekawa just had a pervasive self-sufficient attitude, which is what ultimately costed her Araragi.
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