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Old 2013-07-28, 01:14   Link #301
Sasukeuzi
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Originally Posted by Gaege View Post
Spoiler for New untranslated chapter:
Ah no wonder Beatrice does that retarded wink and peace sign >_>
It also seems like anyone can just join in on the party in the other world. How I would love to see Kiritsugu and Iri come on over too. Hell let's bring the Elementary school girls and Taiga too while we're at it!!! But back to Kiritsugu, though we will never see this happen: Kiritsugu vs Kirei in the Ainsworth's world. Or possibly working together to kill them in a flash, my imagination's goin' wild.
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Old 2013-07-28, 04:30   Link #302
ukulelembo
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It also seems like anyone can just join in on the party in the other world.
No, only people who stand under flash at the end of 2wei! (= Illya, Kuro, Bazett, Rin, Luvia and Gil + Angelica and Beatrice with Miyu). Nobody else unless they don't find their own way to get there (Irisviel clearly stayed alone in original world at the end of 2wei!).
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Old 2013-08-11, 22:47   Link #303
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[QUOTE=Myssa Rei;4765431]
Spoiler for Chapter 8:


not the whole story? I think Gil having a MASSIVE ego sums it up pretty nicely. Remember how the black mud back in F/SN and F/ Zero? Didn't do shit to Gil cuz rules dont apply that that badass
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Old 2013-08-15, 00:46   Link #304
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Spoiler for Chapter 8:
Spoiler for Chapter 8:


not the whole story? I think Gil having a MASSIVE ego sums it up pretty nicely. Remember how the black mud back in F/SN and F/ Zero? Didn't do shit to Gil cuz rules dont apply that that badass
I think Gil (or rather Bazett) is suggesting that there is more that went behind the Servant card creation than Gil mentioned. If the Servant's personalities were suppressed in order to create the cards, then that suggests that the Servants did start out as the traditional summoned Servants a la Fate/Stay Night. If that's the case, then how did the Ainsworths manage to turn all seven Servants into cards? I can't imagine all of them went down willingly.
It's also hard to believe that Kotomine is nothing more than a humble mapo tofu ramen shop owner when he has shown to have a close connection to Gilgamesh not just in the main series but in the Ainsworth's world as well.

Gil revealing that the Servants did have personalities also calls into question how the cards were created in Ilya's world. Did the Einzberns also subjugate all the Servants into cards like the Ainsworths did, and if so, why? Considering Kiritsugu is still alive and well (and apparently "working" most of the time), could it be that he was the one who sealed the Servants into cards to prevent another Holy Grail War?
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Old 2013-08-15, 13:24   Link #305
Sasukeuzi
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Considering Kiritsugu is still alive and well (and apparently "working" most of the time), could it be that he was the one who sealed the Servants into cards to prevent another Holy Grail War?
I wouldn't think that's the case since even Irisviel herself isn't aware of the Cards, from what Kuro was asking her that one night.
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Old 2013-08-15, 19:06   Link #306
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My understanding is that all the cards came through from Miyu's universe. The disruption they caused in the magic field matched the one that was traced back to that cavern where, as far as we can tell, the initial breach between worlds occurred. The place that Miyu emerged from without first having entered. And more, Caren told us the cards appeared at the same time Miyu emerged from the cavern. That seems a clear indicator that, intentionally or unintentionally, when Miyu crossed over into Illya's world, she brought the cards with her.
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Old 2013-08-15, 19:54   Link #307
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
My understanding is that all the cards came through from Miyu's universe. The disruption they caused in the magic field matched the one that was traced back to that cavern where, as far as we can tell, the initial breach between worlds occurred. The place that Miyu emerged from without first having entered. And more, Caren told us the cards appeared at the same time Miyu emerged from the cavern. That seems a clear indicator that, intentionally or unintentionally, when Miyu crossed over into Illya's world, she brought the cards with her.
I don't think Miyu's world would have two of each class card. Gilgamesh may have come from her world, but I think the rest of them almost certainly originated from Ilya's world.

I think it's more likely that when Miyu arrived at Ilya's world, the Grail created a whole new set of Servant cards for that world.
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Old 2013-08-15, 20:43   Link #308
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It's not like the cards were actually involved in the holy grail war, as far as I can tell any more. They seem to just be artifacts the Ainsworths created to make themselves more powerful. I see no reason why there couldn't be as many of any kind as one could want.
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Old 2013-08-15, 22:05   Link #309
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
It's not like the cards were actually involved in the holy grail war, as far as I can tell any more. They seem to just be artifacts the Ainsworths created to make themselves more powerful. I see no reason why there couldn't be as many of any kind as one could want.
Yeah, but kid Gil mentioned "back there, Heroic Spirits are different, though..." before revealing Miyu's identity, which suggests that the F/SN cards were not initially there in the Ainsworth's world.
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Old 2013-08-16, 00:34   Link #310
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If the Kalied-verse Grail is anything like the FSN-verse Grail then it needs 7 heroic spirits to be absorbed by a vessel.

The implication is that Illya was born to be a Grail for the Einsbern but Kiritsugu and Irisviel rebelled against that.

But in FSN Makiri was the one who came up with the master and servant system.

Here the Einsbern, Tousaka and Makiri/Matou did not cooperate.

So it would make sense that while Iri knows Heroic Spirits are involved in the process of the Grail the "Servant" card system is unknown to her.

Illya and Miyu are alternate counterparts of each other. Miyu being a natural Grail. Illya is implied to be a vessel of a Grail but given her unlimited Mana without heroic spirits inside her implies she has already has Third Magic. The end product which the Einsbern seeks.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Third_Magic
Quote:
Heaven's Feel is a magic that allows for the materialization of the soul (魂の物質化, ?), which stops the inevitable dispersion of the soul once it no longer has an anchor to the world, and essentially makes it transcend to a higher form of existence. It is a magic that realizes true immortality by making the soul into a high-dimensional planar being capable of interacting with the material world as a mental body without having to return to Akasha. The practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine.

The Great Grail uses several parts of Heaven's Feel in an attempt to recreate it in its entirety. Using an incomplete version, it takes a raw soul, raw energy made from spiritual particles, and copies information of Heroic Spirits in order to generate Servants. Rather than being actual resurrection, it is the temporary formation of a soul that doesn't require a real body, meaning that they are not truly brought back to life. Gaia, considering that they should be dead in the present, considers servants to be a contradiction that must be removed, so they need a constant connection to their masters' prana to keep from being erased. After a Servant is killed, the Holy Grail temporarily stores their souls before they are returned to Akasha. In the case of receiving an actual body from the corrupted Grail, they are able to exist for a longer period of time, but they are still considered as not alive and require prana to remain in the present world.
This somewhat explains how Illya installs the cards turning to Heroic Spirit forms and having their memories.

I think the differences between Illya and Miyu is this. Illya is connected to the Greater Grail or is the core of the Greater Grail like Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern. Miyu is the Holy Grail or Lesser Grail the vessel which grants wishes via the Greater Grail.

This makes me think the old coot Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg knew this all along as he was involved with the creation of the Greater Grail in FSN.

Hence indirectly giving his Kaliedo sticks to Illya and Miyu via Rin and Luvia.
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Old 2013-08-16, 13:49   Link #311
Sasukeuzi
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This makes me think the old coot Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg knew this all along as he was involved with the creation of the Greater Grail in FSN.

Hence indirectly giving his Kaliedo sticks to Illya and Miyu via Rin and Luvia.
Oh man that old bastard, I like how he thinks. I do want to know what happened to the 3 families though. It's implied I guess that the Einzberns got put down by Kiritsugu right? But whatever happened to the Makiris and Tohsakas? I'm guessing something must've happened to Rin's father and mother since she's still the same. Nasu did say Rin would've turned out different if her father was still alive and she saw his true personality. And the Makiris... Well they could still be worming around the city here and there >_>
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Old 2013-08-16, 18:11   Link #312
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Oh man that old bastard, I like how he thinks. I do want to know what happened to the 3 families though. It's implied I guess that the Einzberns got put down by Kiritsugu right? But whatever happened to the Makiris and Tohsakas? I'm guessing something must've happened to Rin's father and mother since she's still the same. Nasu did say Rin would've turned out different if her father was still alive and she saw his true personality. And the Makiris... Well they could still be worming around the city here and there >_>
Waver is also the same, which doesn't really make sense if the events of Zero never happened. I like to think the initial set-up of the war was similar. Same masters, same servants, the main difference being that Kiritsugu made the right choice this time and decided to protect his family from the very start.

We know the Einzberns worked alone in the Prisma Illya timeline but they might have come up with the same ritual as in F/SN - it just took them longer. It's also likely they did end up asking the help of other families to start the war. Kuro suspected the Tohsakas were involved in some way since the war took place in the city they administer. There's a strong possibility Tokiomi was a master.
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Old 2013-08-16, 19:09   Link #313
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Originally Posted by Sasukeuzi View Post
Oh man that old bastard, I like how he thinks. I do want to know what happened to the 3 families though. It's implied I guess that the Einzberns got put down by Kiritsugu right? But whatever happened to the Makiris and Tohsakas? I'm guessing something must've happened to Rin's father and mother since she's still the same. Nasu did say Rin would've turned out different if her father was still alive and she saw his true personality. And the Makiris... Well they could still be worming around the city here and there >_>
Rin implies with having Japanese on her father's side that Aoi is not her mother. Her mother is a foreigner in this universe.

How she ended pretty much the same I can imagine only that her mom is an Edelfelt.

In the FSN-verse a Edelfelt sister eloped with a Tousaka during the Third Grail War.

Which sort of explains how Rin and Luvia in the Kalied-verse have the same type of magic.

Sakura Matou also exist in this universe. If Kotomine and Aoi didn't get together does that mean Kiriya and Aoi did?

Which means in this verse Rin and Sakura are not sisters.

Well either that or Kotomine and Aoi divorced taking one kid each with them. Rin forgetting somehow her real mother and younger sister.
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Old 2013-08-16, 23:34   Link #314
Sasukeuzi
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Rin implies with having Japanese on her father's side that Aoi is not her mother. Her mother is a foreigner in this universe.

How she ended pretty much the same I can imagine only that her mom is an Edelfelt.

In the FSN-verse a Edelfelt sister eloped with a Tousaka during the Third Grail War.

Which sort of explains how Rin and Luvia in the Kalied-verse have the same type of magic.

Sakura Matou also exist in this universe. If Kotomine and Aoi didn't get together does that mean Kiriya and Aoi did?

Which means in this verse Rin and Sakura are not sisters.

Well either that or Kotomine and Aoi divorced taking one kid each with them. Rin forgetting somehow her real mother and younger sister.
Lol Kotomine? I think you mean Tokiomi, but yeah I see what you mean. Do you guys ever wonder if Shinji is in there too?
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Old 2013-08-17, 00:25   Link #315
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Lol Kotomine? I think you mean Tokiomi, but yeah I see what you mean. Do you guys ever wonder if Shinji is in there too?
Oh brain fart.
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Old 2013-08-17, 10:39   Link #316
Shadow5YA
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Waver is also the same, which doesn't really make sense if the events of Zero never happened. I like to think the initial set-up of the war was similar. Same masters, same servants, the main difference being that Kiritsugu made the right choice this time and decided to protect his family from the very start.
Shirou is also presumably the same (an orphaned child adopted by Kiritsugu), but that doesn't make either because Zero's ending never happened in this series.

Irisviel's Grail was never destroyed, meaning the contents never spilled out and destroyed Shirou's hometown, which was what led to Kiritsugu rescuing him.


All Caren stated was that the Holy Grail made 10 years ago was incomplete. There are just too many possibilities on what could have happened differently in Prisma Ilya, though honestly I'm not sure that matters since it's hinted that the Class Cards were more because of what happened on Miyu's side than Ilya's.
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Old 2013-08-17, 11:27   Link #317
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Shirou is also presumably the same (an orphaned child adopted by Kiritsugu), but that doesn't make either because Zero's ending never happened in this series.

Irisviel's Grail was never destroyed, meaning the contents never spilled out and destroyed Shirou's hometown, which was what led to Kiritsugu rescuing him.


All Caren stated was that the Holy Grail made 10 years ago was incomplete. There are just too many possibilities on what could have happened differently in Prisma Ilya, though honestly I'm not sure that matters since it's hinted that the Class Cards were more because of what happened on Miyu's side than Ilya's.
In this verse Iri isn't a homunculus nor are Sella and Lisette. Even if Illya was the Holy Grail the infinite mana wouldn't make sense. Even FSN Illya does not have infinite mana unless in certain conditions.

Kuro said to Miyu their ways are not that different. Commenting Rin and Luvia being humans.

Caren comments that Illya is a necessity, Miyu is accidental and Kuro is a miracle.

Originally the Holy Grail is not a person but an actual grail in FSN. But the practice of a physical grail ended during the Third Grail War. Which necessitated a homunculus such as Irisviel to serve in its stead. Later Illya.

But since the history is different my guess is that Illya was to be sacrificed as the core of the Greater Grail.

So what Caren said was true the Holy Grail was not completed. Kiritsugu killed the Einzberns before they could do so.

But Illya... Illya is core of the Greater Grail thus she has what the Einzberns has been looking for a thousand years, Third Magic. This explains how she can make a wish true and her infinite mana.

Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern never became the core in this verse.

While Illya has Third Magic does not mean Einzbern's have it. Thus they needed a Grail War and a Holy Grail to facilitate their wish.

Illya is a necessity cause she is the core of the Greater Grail, Miyu is accidental cause she is a natural Lesser Grail, Kuro is a miracle because Third Magic allowed her existence.
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Old 2013-08-17, 12:10   Link #318
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
In this verse Iri isn't a homunculus nor are Sella and Lisette. Even if Illya was the Holy Grail the infinite mana wouldn't make sense. Even FSN Illya does not have infinite mana unless in certain conditions.
It's not like Ilya has infinite mana at all times in this series either. She didn't even learn how to Install consciously until 3rei started, and she was visibly weakened when Kuro separated from her at the beginning of 2wei.

Additionally, past that one time against the Saber card Ilya has had Ruby with her, who carries her own supply of mana as well.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern never became the core in this verse.

While Illya has Third Magic does not mean Einzbern's have it. Thus they needed a Grail War and a Holy Grail to facilitate their wish.

Illya is a necessity cause she is the core of the Greater Grail, Miyu is accidental cause she is a natural Lesser Grail, Kuro is a miracle because Third Magic allowed her existence.
That makes no sense because Justeaze was the one who designed the Grail War system centuries ago. There is nothing to prevent her from becoming the core of the Greater Grail.

I think it's more likely that Ilya at the very least was still intended to become a Lesser Grail vessel, but Kiritsugu eliminated the Einzberns early on. It's possible that Irisveil was not a vessel though.

It's also not required to be a part of the Greater Grail to have a wish granted, since it's implied that Miyu or her version of Shirou wished for her to escape to a new world where she can avoid serving as the Lesser Grail.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Caren comments that Illya is a necessity, Miyu is accidental and Kuro is a miracle.
Because as kid Gil mentions later, Miyu is a human who naturally became the Lesser Grail vessel as opposed to Ilya was a homunculus (natural born or not) designed to be the Grail from the beginning.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-08-17 at 12:34.
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Old 2013-08-17, 12:53   Link #319
ReddyRedWolf
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It's not like Ilya has infinite mana at all times in this series either. She didn't even learn how to Install consciously until 3rei started, and she was visibly weakened when Kuro separated from her at the beginning of 2wei.

Additionally, past that one time against the Saber card Ilya has had Ruby with her, who carries her own supply of mana as well.
Two clues on the whole Grail war. Iri mentioned Illya was the key to the ritual. Justeaze was the key to the Heaven's Feel ritual. Iri also mentions Illya can grant wishes on her own.

When seals started breaking Kuro was starting to surface. It is isn't the Lesser Grail aka Holy Grail that grants wishes it is the Greater Grail that is connected to Akasha.

Third Magic is about materialization of the soul. Which is pretty much what happened with Kuro and whenever Illya transforms into a heroic spirit.


Plus from the flashback chapter on Kischur Zelretch and grown up Waver, they talk about obtaining a magical dress as a weapon. It seems the Cards are needed for that. It's not magical girl's dress.

Magical dress which mean only one thing. The Mystic Code of the Einzbern's the Dress of Heaven. Which is again related to Third Magic.
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Old 2013-08-17, 17:04   Link #320
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Two clues on the whole Grail war. Iri mentioned Illya was the key to the ritual. Justeaze was the key to the Heaven's Feel ritual. Iri also mentions Illya can grant wishes on her own.
Being the "key" to something is too vague when there are multiple keys required for completion. Characters are still essential even as a Lesser Grail because they are rare vessels that can contain the mana needed to open the gate to the Great Grail. Miyu is clearly invaluable to the Ainsworths, and Ilya was the trump card for the Einzberns. I think you're understating the importance of the Lesser Grail by quite a bit.


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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
When seals started breaking Kuro was starting to surface. It is isn't the Lesser Grail aka Holy Grail that grants wishes it is the Greater Grail that is connected to Akasha.
Ilya is already connected to the Greater Grail in a sense, being a homunculus created in the image of the person who makes up the Greater Grail's core.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Third Magic is about materialization of the soul. Which is pretty much what happened with Kuro and whenever Illya transforms into a heroic spirit.
It's also what Ilya used on Shirou in the HF route, and she is only a Lesser Grail there.
Miyu also uses Install a few times in 2wei, so being a Greater Grail is not a requirement for the usage of Third Magic.
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