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Old 2013-08-02, 20:38   Link #41
imza
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I feel like the straw hats will really have a nice balance if they have at least one powerful logia user in their crew. If anything, so far most of the super powers we have seen all have at least one logia user. I just hope it's a new member rather than someone that is already in the crew. However, if it has to be anyone, I think it would fit Sanji the best!
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Old 2013-08-02, 22:23   Link #42
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^None of the supernovas introduced thus far have a logia in their crews and were able to make it through the grand line just fine without one (and this is also including guys like Cavendish, who don't have a DF power AT ALL). So for what reason do the Straw-Hats need to be the exception in this case, especially when they had little to no trouble against the enemies from the last couple of arcs?
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Old 2013-08-03, 11:37   Link #43
imza
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
^None of the supernovas introduced thus far have a logia in their crews and were able to make it through the grand line just fine without one (and this is also including guys like Cavendish, who don't have a DF power AT ALL). So for what reason do the Straw-Hats need to be the exception in this case, especially when they had little to no trouble against the enemies from the last couple of arcs?
I guess I'm just thinking in terms of the big war we saw between whitebeard and the marines. Certain logia powers come in handy to off-set other logia attacks or to even massively change the landscape of the battle. If Aojiki did not freeze the water, the Marines would have been washed away. So I agree that not everyone needs it, I just think for the future pirate king's crew, it would be helpful as they will face other logias with powers that have huge effects.
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Old 2013-08-03, 18:46   Link #44
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Just wondering if 2 people where to eat a DF at the same time in sync who would get the power?
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Old 2013-08-04, 08:59   Link #45
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Originally Posted by imza View Post
I guess I'm just thinking in terms of the big war we saw between whitebeard and the marines. Certain logia powers come in handy to off-set other logia attacks or to even massively change the landscape of the battle. If Aojiki did not freeze the water, the Marines would have been washed away. So I agree that not everyone needs it, I just think for the future pirate king's crew, it would be helpful as they will face other logias with powers that have huge effects.
If I don't forget anyone, as far as we know the only guy with a DF, not speaking of Logia, on the Pirate King's ship was Buggy.
I understand your point but I don't think a Logia user is needed if you have proficient Haki users.
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Old 2013-08-04, 11:16   Link #46
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Haki has been established as the most important ability. DF users that just rely on their DFs don't last long in the New World. In paradise, logias were invincible. But in the New World, they're no big deal for advanced haki users.
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Old 2013-08-04, 13:00   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Haki has been established as the most important ability. DF users that just rely on their DFs don't last long in the New World. In paradise, logias were invincible. But in the New World, they're no big deal for advanced haki users.
Exactly... just like Pekoms showed us.
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Old 2013-08-04, 16:11   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Haki has been established as the most important ability. DF users that just rely on their DFs don't last long in the New World. In paradise, logias were invincible. But in the New World, they're no big deal for advanced haki users.
And then there's Ace...
Him not knowing Haki will forever remain a plothole.

On-Chapter:
I do wonder though at what level Don Chinjao is strength wise. Even if he did fight Garp it doesn't give us a good estimate since it wasn't mentioned how big that fight was. And considering his current age he's not exactly at his prime either.
I really hope we'll get some comments on this fight detailing exactly how strong the Don was/used to be to better estimate Luffy's current level.
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Old 2013-08-05, 03:26   Link #49
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Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
And then there's Ace...
Him not knowing Haki will forever remain a plothole.
Who said he didn't know how to use Haki? Haki was used over and over in the whole whitebeard war, and a few other times pre time skip, however it was not depicted/drawn the same way as post time skip.

Blackbeard also stated that even without his devil fruit, ace was really strong ( heavily implied that he probably used Haki against him). Not to even mention as a kid he unconsciously used conqueror's haki ( that shows extremely high potential talent).

Also Haki doesn't always win against devil fruit powers. Though it hasn't been explained how it sometimes defeats/counters Haki . It could be something about how skillful you are with your Haki or even maybe a Haki trick/skill used/combined with your devil fruit powers. Examples ( Akainu vs vista/marco, Aokiji getting stabbed by Haki imbued whitebeard spear and then being fine).

So Ace could very well have been able to use Haki and probably did.

Even if we assume he didn't have Haki, how is it a plot hole? Ace Bounty could very well have been because of him having been second commander of the whitebeard pirates.

Also Jinbei had Haki. He and ace fought for 10 days straight. He probably didn't just use fire against Jinbei.


That said, i agree that Oda sensei have been really liberal in how he uses the relationship between Df vs Df or Haki vs Df. Examples Enel vs Luffy. Heat from electricity of that high of voltage will melt any rubber. I could go on, there are many examples that are not consistent. But i personally think that doesn't effect the plot.
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Old 2013-08-05, 09:24   Link #50
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I'm pretty sure Ace knew how to use haki.
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Old 2013-08-05, 09:26   Link #51
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
Ace Bounty could very well have been because of him having been second commander of the whitebeard pirates.
That, his quick rise to power, and his lineage (being Gol D. Roger's son), are what led to his 550 million bounty.

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Also Jinbei had Haki. He and ace fought for 10 days straight. He probably didn't just use fire against Jinbei.
Not necessarily. Jinbe explained that fishman karate manipulates all water, which even includes the water inside of people. With his physical strikes, he sends a shockwave into the person's body that implodes their water composition causing internal damage. Also, Jinbe and Ace fought for 5 days.
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Old 2013-08-05, 15:14   Link #52
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Originally Posted by imza View Post
I feel like the straw hats will really have a nice balance if they have at least one powerful logia user in their crew. If anything, so far most of the super powers we have seen all have at least one logia user. I just hope it's a new member rather than someone that is already in the crew. However, if it has to be anyone, I think it would fit Sanji the best!
I always thought they actually needed a water based member to really be balanced. Aside from the aid of franky's machines, they can't perform all that well in the water. Roughly half the crew are df users and the other half (besides franky maybe) can't breathe or operate at their fullest underwater. A water based member like a fishman would be great for them, no?

Slightly ridiculous speculation I had told me Koala was going to join the strawhats in place of jinbei knowing some kind of fishman karate variation. But yeah a fishman on the strawhats would be a great addition imho.
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Old 2013-08-05, 15:35   Link #53
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As far as Ace and haki goes, I'm pretty sure that yes, he can use it. In fact, we already saw him use CoC as a kid in Luffy's flashback (and he recognized Luffy's CoC blast at Marineford as well, remember). However (and this is pure speculation on my part, mind you), I think that Ace had very poor mastery of haki. It even makes sense in retrospect when you remember the kind of life he lived, IMO. Recall that Rayleigh clearly told Luffy before he trained him that eliminating self-doubt is key to mastering one's latent power. Ace was filled with nothing BUT doubt all his life due to feeling like a total outcast. So while he most certainly was powerful due to his great physical strength and logia powers, his (theoretically) low "ambition" would have still set him below many of the highest powers of the New World (which was evidenced by how easily Whitebeard smacked him around when he first encountered him, lol ).



Edit: In the meantime, spoilers are out, so new thread!

Last edited by marvelB; 2013-08-05 at 22:21.
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Old 2013-08-06, 02:47   Link #54
mrShady
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
Who said he didn't know how to use Haki? Haki was used over and over in the whole whitebeard war, and a few other times pre time skip, however it was not depicted/drawn the same way as post time skip.

Blackbeard also stated that even without his devil fruit, ace was really strong ( heavily implied that he probably used Haki against him). Not to even mention as a kid he unconsciously used conqueror's haki ( that shows extremely high potential talent).

Also Haki doesn't always win against devil fruit powers. Though it hasn't been explained how it sometimes defeats/counters Haki . It could be something about how skillful you are with your Haki or even maybe a Haki trick/skill used/combined with your devil fruit powers. Examples ( Akainu vs vista/marco, Aokiji getting stabbed by Haki imbued whitebeard spear and then being fine).

So Ace could very well have been able to use Haki and probably did.

Even if we assume he didn't have Haki, how is it a plot hole? Ace Bounty could very well have been because of him having been second commander of the whitebeard pirates.

Also Jinbei had Haki. He and ace fought for 10 days straight. He probably didn't just use fire against Jinbei.


That said, i agree that Oda sensei have been really liberal in how he uses the relationship between Df vs Df or Haki vs Df. Examples Enel vs Luffy. Heat from electricity of that high of voltage will melt any rubber. I could go on, there are many examples that are not consistent. But i personally think that doesn't effect the plot.
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
I'm pretty sure Ace knew how to use haki.
It was never confirmed nor shown that Ace used haki (the only exception was that uncontrolled one in a flashback).
Unless Oda confirms Ace using haki it will be a plot hole.
The main reason I call it a plot hole is because he was a well known pirate and a high ranking member of the Whitebeard crew who should've been capable of it.

Biggest evidence that Ace never used something like armament haki is his fight against Smoker.
We all know Oda retconned haki into the story and I'm fine with that but that doesn't excuse this plothole. However it's easily fixed by having a former crew member commenting about his haki use.
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Old 2013-08-06, 04:30   Link #55
Whitemoon648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
I'm pretty sure Ace knew how to use haki.
This is also my opinion as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
That, his quick rise to power, and his lineage (being Gol D. Roger's son), are what led to his 550 million bounty.



Not necessarily. Jinbe explained that fishman karate manipulates all water, which even includes the water inside of people. With his physical strikes, he sends a shockwave into the person's body that implodes their water composition causing internal damage. Also, Jinbe and Ace fought for 5 days.
Yes i agree with this as well. Jinbei could or could not have Haki. The water power could be a reason/way he dealt with ace.

But imo he did have it in whitebeard war. How else could he defend against such a strong Lava punch from Akainu.





Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
As far as Ace and haki goes, I'm pretty sure that yes, he can use it. In fact, we already saw him use CoC as a kid in Luffy's flashback (and he recognized Luffy's CoC blast at Marineford as well, remember). However (and this is pure speculation on my part, mind you), I think that Ace had very poor mastery of haki. It even makes sense in retrospect when you remember the kind of life he lived, IMO. Recall that Rayleigh clearly told Luffy before he trained him that eliminating self-doubt is key to mastering one's latent power. Ace was filled with nothing BUT doubt all his life due to feeling like a total outcast. So while he most certainly was powerful due to his great physical strength and logia powers, his (theoretically) low "ambition" would have still set him below many of the highest powers of the New World (which was evidenced by how easily Whitebeard smacked him around when he first encountered him, lol ).



Edit: In the meantime, spoilers are out, so new thread!
Can't say i disagree. Very well analyzed and written. Definitely a great point/view out of many possible ones. At the end of the day, imo since Oda sensei, didn't give us a definite answers on this, it is open to speculations.

I was mainly trying to address " Ace not having Haki/plot Hole" Theory. I disagree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
It was never confirmed nor shown that Ace used haki (the only exception was that uncontrolled one in a flashback).
Unless Oda confirms Ace using haki it will be a plot hole.
The main reason I call it a plot hole is because he was a well known pirate and a high ranking member of the Whitebeard crew who should've been capable of it.

Biggest evidence that Ace never used something like armament haki is his fight against Smoker.
We all know Oda retconned haki into the story and I'm fine with that but that doesn't excuse this plothole. However it's easily fixed by having a former crew member commenting about his haki use.
It is imo hinted in many instances that Ace could have used Haki and did knew how to use it. A few examples i already mentioned in earlier posts.


During the smoker vs ace fight Concept of Haki was not yet introduced then. I am not saying Every thing is absolutely consistent in one piece. If one looks hard enough, they could find many that are not ( at least as of now*, he could fix them later).

A possible reason could have been that Ace didn't really want to fight against smoker. Just because you can defeat some one doesn't mean you would. Also Smoker has his seastone sword. Ace just wanted to buy sometime for Luffy and co to run. Ace was not the type of pirate that would fight against marines. He didn't really hate them. He just wanted to live his life with the Whitebeard pirates whom he considered as family. Just because you are a pirate, that doesn't mean you would go beat up all marines .

Going by that Logic, then How come Dragon didn't defeat and beat Smoker back in the loguetown. He is probably stronger than even a Yonkou. Or why not he didn't just use Conqueror's haki to wipe all the marines.

That said, i agree with you on it would be nice for Oda sensei to show us that he actually possessed Haki and actually to what level did he master it .
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Old 2013-08-06, 15:39   Link #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrShady View Post
It was never confirmed nor shown that Ace used haki (the only exception was that uncontrolled one in a flashback).
Unless Oda confirms Ace using haki it will be a plot hole.
The main reason I call it a plot hole is because he was a well known pirate and a high ranking member of the Whitebeard crew who should've been capable of it.

Biggest evidence that Ace never used something like armament haki is his fight against Smoker.
We all know Oda retconned haki into the story and I'm fine with that but that doesn't excuse this plothole. However it's easily fixed by having a former crew member commenting about his haki use.
If i remember correctly, when Luffy unleashed his haki during the war, Ace said something among the lines: "just like me!!". Or maybe that was just the translation. Also, I think it was confirmed in a SBS that Ace can use haki. Oh well, these are just "maybe" so take it with a grain of salt. I could do some research but I'm lazy
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Old 2013-08-06, 16:28   Link #57
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Was that confrontation between smoker and ace in the manga at all? Wasn't it anime-filler?
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Old 2013-08-06, 16:43   Link #58
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^They did have a really brief encounter in the manga, yeah. But it was just.... well, brief (basically Ace blocking Smoker's attack, telling him about his power, and..... I think that was it?). The part with Ace hanging out with Luffy and co. for a while was all filler, though (he gave Luffy the vivrecard, blasted away all those BW ships, and left the island right after the Smoker encounter in the manga).
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