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Old 2013-08-03, 07:14   Link #4581
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
No, it applies to Natsuhi's death aswell.

Beatrice: Natsuhi was killed by another person! There are no unidentified corpses, and all of the survivors have alibis!
The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!

When talking about Natsuhi's death
You are completely right, my mistake.

Yes "survivors" must probably refer to the ones that are known to have survived which are merely the children.

But notice how this time it does not "include the dead as well". So it must be once again either Kanon or someone from the shed.
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Old 2013-08-03, 07:27   Link #4582
Sauzer
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
You are completely right, my mistake.

Yes "survivors" must probably refer to the ones that are known to have survived which are merely the children.

But notice how this time it does not "include the dead as well". So it must be once again either Kanon or someone from the shed.
Yeah, that much I fugured. The only person who Battler did not see in the storehouse to confirm her death or mutilation that renders no chance of being alive is Shannon.

However I can't figure out a motive for her that makes sense in the long run. In ep2 she does have a clear motive, bt it doesnt really apply to ep1. She is confirmed dead in ep3 (Unless going back to Shannon=/=Sayo) and in ep4 everyone but Battler dies even before the "event". So still thinking.
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Old 2013-08-03, 08:14   Link #4583
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Yeah, that much I fugured. The only person who Battler did not see in the storehouse to confirm her death or mutilation that renders no chance of being alive is Shannon.

However I can't figure out a motive for her that makes sense in the long run. In ep2 she does have a clear motive, bt it doesnt really apply to ep1. She is confirmed dead in ep3 (Unless going back to Shannon=/=Sayo) and in ep4 everyone but Battler dies even before the "event". So still thinking.
I think EP4 is very interesting in that regard. Whoever was the killer must have died at some point as well. But how? There are 4 possibilities:

1. Simultanous murder, but for that two people would have to be in immidiate line of sight and both would need to have weapons next to their corpses, unless one of the two only got "wounded" and could move a bit before bleeding out. But this would most likely leave a trail of blood.

2. Death by suicide

3. Death by accident

4. Death by illness

Also the only one who Battler did not find was Kanon. But his death was confirmed in red.

Thanks to the red truth at the end we also know for sure that no one was playing dead until the end.


But who was "Beatrice" then? It must have been one of the 17 of course. And that person must be a skilled actor and most likely the culprit as well.



Also regarding EP1: If Shannon was really one of the culprits, then Hideyoshi and Kanon would both have to be accomplices as well, as they claimed that there was Shannon's corpse with a half smashed face. So if Shannon would be indeed an accomplice/murderer then Kanon was as well.

However the reverse does not apply. Kanon could always be the sole culprit without the help of anyone but Nanjo.
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Old 2013-08-03, 08:38   Link #4584
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Well, for now I decided to go backwards and try take a shot at ep4. While trampling Shannon's and Kanon's reputation into dust.

And will also borrow "Kanon is ill" GreyZone's theory as it helps a lot.

It's kinda over the top, but I think is plausable
Spoiler for Episode 4:
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Old 2013-08-03, 08:58   Link #4585
GreyZone
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I'll be honest. I think you have solved about 55% of EP4 correctly. As measurement for that I used all your paragraphes that you seperated by bold titles. You had 10 of those. So if something was wrong I gave 0%, for something that was partially right I gave 5% and for something that was almost or completely correct I gave 10% per paragraph. Of course this only applies to my own understanding of the events and that is not 100% assured to be right.


Regarding "Kanon is ill": Is there any indication for that anywhere in the story? In EP1 there must also be someone who put the stake where it was.
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Old 2013-08-03, 09:17   Link #4586
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Regarding "Kanon is ill": Is there any indication for that anywhere in the story? In EP1 there must also be someone who put the stake where it was.
Hm, well the fact that he is unnaturaly weak is pretty much the only thing I noticed that stood out.
I'm not a doctor so cant say of what if any it could be an indication,
hovewer
Anyone who works physicly should have muscle growth and become stronger over time. The fact that Kanon does not become stronger after working for 2-3 years does infact raise some questions.

And 55% sounds pretty decent considering how insane that ep was.
Ofc that's only of mysteries what I mentioned. There's still stuff like the two diaries, epitaph, etc.
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Old 2013-08-03, 11:19   Link #4587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
However I can't figure out a motive for her that makes sense in the long run. In ep2 she does have a clear motive, bt it doesnt really apply to ep1. She is confirmed dead in ep3 (Unless going back to Shannon=/=Sayo) and in ep4 everyone but Battler dies even before the "event". So still thinking.
I would recommend you searching for the motive of all possible culprits somewhere outside the events that change between Episodes. What we actually do see being different is certain events on the island, so that should make it possible to presume that everything else stays constant.

Also, another thing I noticed is, you described the descriptions found after 1986 as "diaries", but they were rather like rather elaborate letters in a bottle.
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Old 2013-08-03, 13:26   Link #4588
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Quote:
Battler's "sin" against "Beatrice" a.k.a. Shannon
Shannon had a crush on Battler. Battler said to her carelessly something like "but you're just a servant/furniture, we can't be together".
If you remember Episode 2, Battler's last words to Shannon six years ago were along the lines of promising to come back on a white horse. I doubt he said something like that.

Quote:
Beatrice is the island.
Kinzo riddled the the ground under the mansion with tunnels weakening the ground. After many years the tunnels finally collapse along with most of the mansion, killing Battler.
This is the best blue I've ever seen in my life.
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Old 2013-08-03, 13:31   Link #4589
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This is the best blue I've ever seen in my life.
Better than small bombs?
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Old 2013-08-03, 17:00   Link #4590
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Better than small bombs?
Hahahahahahaaaaaa! smaaaaaal boooombs?


hmm....
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Old 2013-08-03, 17:22   Link #4591
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Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Better than small bombs?
I think you're doing an awesome work.
I wish I had the chance to search for the solution episode by episode but when I started Umineko I had no idea it was solvable and I feared we would get a 'Rokkenjima syndrome' solution or worse that the whole point of the series was to prove the witch existed.

It didn't help that I began with the anime which cuts lot of stuffs... -_-

So my detective game with Umineko began with EP 5, when a friend persuaded me to read the VN and assured me Umineko was solvable... *sighs* it would have been much funnier if I had known from the beginning...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Battler's talk with Beatrice
On the phone Battler is talking to Shannon. Shannon mocks his "english" which she remembers quite well from 6 years ago.

Shannon is also the one on the balcony during Battler's test. Due to very bad lighting, nighttime, the storm and Shannon talking very differently Battler can't tell who it is.
Also keep in mind whoever is acting the role of Betrice is likely doing just this, acting or better behaving differently from usual so Battler can't recognize that person from his/her behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
While searching for clues Battler is once again drunk and did not notice the gun.
Is there any hint he was drunk? Or did he drak afterward? Because if he's drunk all his investigation is questionable.

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Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Jessica's talk with Battler
Jessica is threatened and said whatever the culprit wanted her to say.
Something along the lines of: "If you say what I want, I will only kill you. If you don't, I'll torture everyone to death right in front of your eyes starting with Kanon".

Kyrie's talk with Battler
Kyrie is threatened and said whatever the culprit wanted her to say.
Something along the lines of: "If you say what I want, I will only kill you. If you don't, I'll torture Battler to death right in front of your eyes and feed you his guts".
Is there any sign they're threatened? (this applies to everyone)
If there's not could they have lied for a different reason?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
Beatrice is the island.
Kinzo riddled the the ground under the mansion with tunnels weakening the ground. After many years the tunnels finally collapse along with most of the mansion, killing Battler.
[/SPOILER]
I also love this solution though this solution also implies no premeditation but just an incident (or accident, I can never remember which of the two I should use... :P )
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Old 2013-08-03, 17:34   Link #4592
Sauzer
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Is there any hint he was drunk? Or did he drak afterward? Because if he's drunk all his investigation is questionable.
Oh yeah - wine bottle in one hand and ham in the other. Though to be fair that seemed to be at the end right before 24:00, so not sure if he drank before he started his investigation, just that he was "lazing about" for a while.

He did however have 0 sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Is there any sign they're threatened? (this applies to everyone)
If there's not could they have lied for a different reason?
Well it's basically
a) threatened and lying
b) lying because they're involved

And you can't blame insanity when 4+ people describe the same thing in same details.
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