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Old 2013-08-04, 14:13   Link #29861
Roger Rambo
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
"More free", but also more uncertainty in getting paid.

We can also become more free if everyone's got free food and housing, except every government that attempted it on a scale larger than a small village has failed miserably.
Well that's generally because in the past society NEEDED most of it's people working productively and diligently in order to manufacture goods and produce food and provide services. But what happens when the human element becomes disinvested from actual productivity?


It seems to me that you can either have Star Trek style socialism where the majority of the populace would be on replicator ration card welfare, or extreme Darwinism where the majority of the populace is left to starve...at which point you had better be ready to keep lots of gas drones on hands in case they start bread rioting.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:15   Link #29862
Ithekro
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I've generally thought it be better to somehow cut down the "cost of living" rather than raise wages. There is something (hopefully other than wages) that keeps driving prices up, and it be nice to find a way to cut that off and get some things lowered again so that comsumers can actual start purchasing more, as they feel more confident in getting not only survival goods, but also luxury items (where the profits come from).
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:18   Link #29863
Roger Rambo
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I've generally thought it be better to somehow cut down the "cost of living" rather than raise wages. There is something (hopefully other than wages) that keeps driving prices up, and it be nice to find a way to cut that off and get some things lowered again so that comsumers can actual start purchasing more, as they feel more confident in getting not only survival goods, but also luxury items (where the profits come from).
Well allot of that has to do with rising inflation.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:21   Link #29864
Dhomochevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe because they didn't have smart enough robots.

Right now, every meal we eat was made with somebody's sweat. Someone somewhere always pay.

But if it could all be done by robots? Well, someone would have to design them first, and build the first few to build the rest, but ultimately we'd get to a point where a handful of guys worked hard for a bit and fed everyone, forever. Then what?
Then we will have a lot of food and it will cost almost nothing to buy.
Are you trying to say that is a bad thing?

Look, this whole argument has been around for so long and has been proven wrong over and over again. Almost none of the jobs from 100 years ago exist in their original form today. Yet we have 'only' 5%-10% unemployment, with a much larger population.
How is that possible when we need so much less people to do a job?
Well, it's easy: we just do more!

If you replace 100 people with showels with a guy with a bulldozer, then what do the other people do?
They all get a bulldozer and build a hundred roads!

When we manage to free labor by using machines, we then allocate that labor to do more things, more effectively, in a bigger scale.
And we are certainly not at the end of scale.
There are still too many things that we should do, only they cost too much. Too high cost of anything important is an indicator that we are not quite there yet.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:23   Link #29865
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Who gives them a replicator? And how do they convince the people who operate the robot mines to send them raw materials for their replicator, and convince the people who own the power utilities to send them the power needed to power their replicator?
That was a joke.

Quote:
But what services could they provide to somebody with a replicator, who could just manufacture robot servants/workers for himself?
To get back to a slightly more plausible scenario: an economy where all physical labor and basic services can be replaced by capital goods and which little to no monitoring or maintenance.

People can trade services like education, art, sports, music, entertainment, artisan goods, cuisine, etc.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:32   Link #29866
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Even now, we still need people to make society work. To produce as much, as well as we can.

With robots everywhere? We're talking about a society where only the 1% most creative has real, useful jobs. Training robots or tackling problems they aren't smart enough to solve. Everything else? Robots.

And for the remaining 99%? Make-work and hobbies. We can't all be Stephen Hawking or GRR Martin. Or maybe we'll all prostitute ourselves to each other, because I imagine most people will prefer real flesh and blood to even the most realistic robot. Though I could be wrong there...

And of course, the next question, tied to the end of capitalism, is this: what happens when the rich, the robot owners, realize they don't need the poor? Not even to clean their robots? Do they tell us to starve? Do we storm their castles? Maybe start the Butlerian Jihad?


Or maybe we'll all live comfortable lives, supported by our robot slaves, writing fanfiction all day, for lack of a better thing to do.
Being a Mentat sounds could though...
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:35   Link #29867
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Then we will have a lot of food and it will cost almost nothing to buy.
Are you trying to say that is a bad thing?

Look, this whole argument has been around for so long and has been proven wrong over and over again. Almost none of the jobs from 100 years ago exist in their original form today. Yet we have 'only' 5%-10% unemployment, with a much larger population.
How is that possible when we need so much less people to do a job?
Well, it's easy: we just do more!

If you replace 100 people with showels with a guy with a bulldozer, then what do the other people do?
They all get a bulldozer and build a hundred roads!

When we manage to free labor by using machines, we then allocate that labor to do more things, more effectively, in a bigger scale.
And we are certainly not at the end of scale.
There are still too many things that we should do, only they cost too much. Too high cost of anything important is an indicator that we are not quite there yet.
Yup, the source of economic growth is increased production due to technological improvements (which in turn are the result of human ingenuity).

If production increases faster than the population, real wages can simply rise as the human labor becomes more valuable in comparison.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:38   Link #29868
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Yup, the source of economic growth is increased production due to technological improvements (which in turn are the result of human ingenuity).

If production increases faster than the population, real wages can simply rise as the human labor becomes more valuable in comparison.
The question is, after it reach a certain point, what would be left for a human to do? GRRM writing and pondering the mystery of the Universe?

Or, an alternative situation will exist where it is cheaper to have a human on the job than a machine.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:39   Link #29869
Dhomochevsky
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Our growth is currently fueled by finite resources.
We will hit that ceiling long before we get any of those utopian problems with robots and such.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:40   Link #29870
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Then we will have a lot of food and it will cost almost nothing to buy.
Are you trying to say that is a bad thing?
I'm saying it'll change things. It will, possibly, make it possible for all basic necessities to be free.

Or maybe rich people will use Terminator robots so they don't have to share the Earth with the now obsolete poor.

Quote:
Look, this whole argument has been around for so long and has been proven wrong over and over again. Almost none of the jobs from 100 years ago exist in their original form today. Yet we have 'only' 5%-10% unemployment, with a much larger population.
How is that possible when we need so much less people to do a job?
Well, it's easy: we just do more!

If you replace 100 people with showels with a guy with a bulldozer, then what do the other people do?
They all get a bulldozer and build a hundred roads!

When we manage to free labor by using machines, we then allocate that labor to do more things, more effectively, in a bigger scale.
And we are certainly not at the end of scale.
There are still too many things that we should do, only they cost too much. Too high cost of anything important is an indicator that we are not quite there yet.
We haven't - yet - made robots that are better than 99% of humans. We're smarter and we maintain ourselves.

But when we do... Two things:
- we won't need human labor to lead comfortable lives. It's not a matter of good or bad. We can all, from the lowest to the highest, stay in bed all day and not starve. Which means either we will do just that, or we'll force ourselves to pretend to be useful. You say "do more", but what for? Once we can all be comfortable without lifting a finger?
- you say we'll find other jobs, but that would mean finding some quality where we'll still beat robots. And they're quickly catching up across the board. They're still far in some areas, but they're a hell of a lot closer than they used to be. Except, maybe, creativity, but as I said, most humans aren't all that creative either.
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Old 2013-08-04, 14:48   Link #29871
maplehurry
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Our growth is currently fueled by finite resources.
We will hit that ceiling long before we get any of those utopian problems with robots and such.
Until we managed to build something that can travel "faster than" the speed of light.

Quote:
Look, this whole argument has been around for so long and has been proven wrong over and over again. Almost none of the jobs from 100 years ago exist in their original form today. Yet we have 'only' 5%-10% unemployment, with a much larger population.
There's also this trend where people need to stay in school longer before they have a good chance of finding a job.

Not a bad thing for these kids, except it costs more and more to raise them.
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Old 2013-08-04, 15:02   Link #29872
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
The question is, after it reach a certain point, what would be left for a human to do? GRRM writing and pondering the mystery of the Universe?
Pretty much, and going at it like rabbits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
- you say we'll find other jobs, but that would mean finding some quality where we'll still beat robots. And they're quickly catching up across the board. They're still far in some areas, but they're a hell of a lot closer than they used to be. Except, maybe, creativity, but as I said, most humans aren't all that creative either.
There would always be tasks we would not want to leave to machines that require human contact.
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Old 2013-08-04, 15:07   Link #29873
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
There would always be tasks we would not want to leave to machines that require human contact.
Yes, but are they task we'll want to do? If we don't actually need to work?
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Old 2013-08-04, 15:20   Link #29874
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, but are they task we'll want to do? If we don't actually need to work?
Yes, job rewards don't necessarily have to be currency or in goods or services. Worth or status are viable alternatives. Why do you think people do volunteer work, give to charity or participate in amateur sports? Humans are social creatures.

Last edited by Bri; 2013-08-04 at 15:31.
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Old 2013-08-04, 15:37   Link #29875
Anh_Minh
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Yes, but again, what will those "tasks that require human contact" be? Menial customer service jobs, for the most part. And who will want to do that if they don't need to? What kind of status do you get out of getting yelled at by some moron?
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Old 2013-08-04, 15:48   Link #29876
Bri
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, but again, what will those "tasks that require human contact" be? Menial customer service jobs, for the most part. And who will want to do that if they don't need to? What kind of status do you get out of getting yelled at by some moron?
Pretty much that and education, child rearing, medical care etc.

Who would want to do that? A current example can be found in MMO games. There are plenty of players who spend thousands of hours of their free time to performing mind numbing tasks to kit out their characters to simply impress other players and increase their self worth.

In a world without material need, you could simply earn credits for real estate locations, titles, collectors items, or anything that is rare and desirable.
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Old 2013-08-04, 18:21   Link #29877
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Pretty much that and education, child rearing, medical care etc.

Who would want to do that? A current example can be found in MMO games. There are plenty of players who spend thousands of hours of their free time to performing mind numbing tasks to kit out their characters to simply impress other players and increase their self worth.

In a world without material need, you could simply earn credits for real estate locations, titles, collectors items, or anything that is rare and desirable.
so society will replace money with game trophies
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Old 2013-08-04, 22:14   Link #29878
ganbaru
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Whistleblowers pay price even as China vows to fight corruption
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9730BB20130804

For surgery, big and famous hospitals aren't always the best
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...96U0CQ20130731
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Old 2013-08-05, 09:38   Link #29879
kyp275
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
The point of bringing this up was not to say that we should get rid of landlords. It was generated in response to the idea that the working poor are deserving of criticism for demanding higher wages.
Nobody is saying they deserve criticism for asking for higher wages, the criticism comes in when they demand wages that are way beyond what is reasonable/realistic for the position.

Quote:
Yet I would also point out that in the vast majority of cases the buildings were built long ago and the only "investment" occurs as one person or group sells the property to another.
Quote:
Those comments weren't directed at you, but at kyp275. To be fair, he didn't complain about welfare recipients. I pre-empted it, but he didn't go there.
Welfare is a needed social safety net, there are people who takes advantages of the program of course, but that is not a problem unique to welfare programs.

[quote](and this is more directed at kyp275's lack of sympathy for their demands for higher wages).

Read above. Also, I resent that accusation, there is a difference between asking for higher wages and asking for ridiculous wages.

Quote:
While I am not opposed to the idea that people would receive compensation for going through the effort to secure a site and erect a structure for others to live in, I view what happens after as parasitism. If the property owner is not functioning as the property manager, then what more is he (or she) than another outstretched hand demanding money from people who must live somewhere and end up on his or her plot of land? What service is being provided?
The "service" is being able to live on someone else's property. As many already pointed out (and you seemed to ignore) is that property owners assumes a myriad of risks when renting, it's a private investment for them. For example, one of my relative in Taiwan has been fighting in court for months trying to get an apartment back from a tenant who has refused to pay his rent, and apparently does this all the time, bouncing from one place to another and living for free until the slow ass court finally evicts him.

Whether the owner maintains the property personally is irrelevant, if anything, hiring someone else to manage the property actually create additional jobs.

Quote:
Would the land not have existed before he purchased it?
Your point? It would have belonged to someone else.
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Old 2013-08-05, 09:46   Link #29880
MrTerrorist
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Now to wait until it's available to the public after throughout testing.
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