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View Poll Results: Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA - Episode 5 Rating
Perfect 10 8 34.78%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 7 30.43%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 6 26.09%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 4.35%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 4.35%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-08-06, 11:14   Link #21
Shinhwa
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Wasn't that just Saber in disguise back in April Fool?
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Old 2013-08-07, 04:56   Link #22
Kyral
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Originally Posted by Avatar of Dreams View Post
They're definitely not the same person. They don't even look similar. Look, Saber doesn't even have a hat nor a scarf.
Totaly right! Heroine X is so much more awesome than puny old Saber! *-*
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Old 2013-08-07, 06:00   Link #23
Xemnonsis
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Totaly right! Heroine X is so much more awesome than puny old Saber! *-*
She has a baseball bat. That's like a BILLION times more better than Excalibur!
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Old 2013-08-07, 10:04   Link #24
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She has a baseball bat. That's like a BILLION times more better than Excalibur!
In a Detective Conan ova, there was a baseball bat named Excalibur... just saying.
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Old 2013-08-08, 19:24   Link #25
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In a Detective Conan ova, there was a baseball bat named Excalibur... just saying.
So... don't tell me Heroine X is a parody/reference off of that O.o
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Old 2013-08-09, 15:28   Link #26
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Not a bad third option they came up with there. Really it was all they could do in that situation. Lancer couldn't be used, Rider apparently isn't useful on its own, Archer really seemed useless, and Caster was a total gamble. Might not have been bad to give it a try all things considered, but against an enemy like that probably can't afford major blunders.

Was pretty slow paced, but still thought they kept the pressure on. Not surprised Ilya lost her nerve in this one. A completely random encounter, Rin and Luvia taken out, can't damage her with long distance attacks and can't easy guard those slashes. Getting cut suddenly made the danger feel much more real than before.

Not bad close combat action from Rin. Expect this is probably the most action she and Luvia are going to get so they might as well have fun going all out here .
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Old 2013-08-09, 16:08   Link #27
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Rin and Luvia show the kids how it's done. They're definitely on a whole other level.

I'm hyped as hell for next week. They better not fuck this up.

Edit: oh and the ED card was hilarious. So they are aware they are too many Saber clones, but it doesn't stop them from making more (Sakura Saber was revealed today).
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Old 2013-08-09, 22:05   Link #28
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Not bad, not bad. Kind of an odd place to end the episode, though. Not sure why they didn't go the whole way and just end on the same cliffhanger the manga chapter finished on, since they were already 90% there.

Also mildly disappointed at the lack of blood on Rin and Luvia's wounds. Come folks, this is a Fate series. We can handle some people getting hurt.
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Old 2013-08-10, 11:20   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
I haven't seen a magical girl series this exciting since Nanoha or Madoka. I also like how they treat magic as if were some form of science. That you need years of training just to learn how to hover above the ground let alone fly.
Actually, Illya showed in previous episodes that this isn't the case, as she mastered the ability to fly without having to train at it much at all. The magic in this show is very different from science, and that's what I like about it. The power of one's imagination is important to magic use in this show.

Nonetheless, there are power levels, experience levels, and battle tactics. That still applies, as it should.


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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Not bad, not bad. Kind of an odd place to end the episode, though.

Also mildly disappointed at the lack of blood on Rin and Luvia's wounds. Come folks, this is a Fate series. We can handle some people getting hurt.
Rin totally tanking that direct sword-strike without so much as a scratch was a bit eyebrow raising to me, but I don't have much problem with the rest. At least they're showing Illya and Miyu bleeding a bit (Miyu in a previous episode, Illya in this one). The show has done a good job of making it clear that dying in battle is a very real possibility for our magical girls, hence giving the battles an emotional intensity to match its brilliant explosiveness and flashy combat.
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Old 2013-08-10, 11:35   Link #30
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Rin totally tanking that direct sword-strike without so much as a scratch was a bit eyebrow raising to me, but I don't have much problem with the rest. At least they're showing Illya and Miyu bleeding a bit (Miyu in a previous episode, Illya in this one). The show has done a good job of making it clear that dying in battle is a very real possibility for our magical girls, hence giving the battles an emotional intensity to match its brilliant explosiveness and flashy combat.
It's just that Rin and Luvia were bleeding from Saber's surprise attack in the manga. It was clear there that she hadn't merely hit them with a mana blast, but actually slashed them with Excalibur. They were still bleeding from gashes in the stomach when they got up to distract Saber, and they certainly weren't in any condition to go all-out. They were barely able to stand to throw jewels at her, and they fell to their knees again soon after. They gave the impression of being in danger of bleeding out if they didn't get help soon.
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Old 2013-08-10, 11:41   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
It's just that Rin and Luvia were bleeding from Saber's surprise attack in the manga. It was clear there that she hadn't merely hit them with a mana blast, but actually slashed them with Excalibur. They were still bleeding from gashes in the stomach when they got up to distract Saber, and they certainly weren't in any condition to go all-out. They were barely able to stand to throw jewels at her, and they fell to their knees again soon after. They gave the impression of being in danger of bleeding out if they didn't get help soon.
I see. I have to admit that this episode (and the one before it) gave me the impression that they simply got KO'ed by a mana blast. What the manga went with does sound more intense, yeah.
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Old 2013-08-10, 12:08   Link #32
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Actually, Illya showed in previous episodes that this isn't the case, as she mastered the ability to fly without having to train at it much at all. The magic in this show is very different from science, and that's what I like about it. The power of one's imagination is important to magic use in this show.
Well in the Fate series magic is kind of treated as Science.
"Science is an art that goes towards the future, while magic is one that delves in the past"- Tohsaka Rin.
But yeah, I love the whole concept of magic in here. It really is like science, but I'd also like to see some sorcery since it's considered a miracle producer of sorts. I'd probably just have to play Mahou Yoru
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Old 2013-08-10, 14:58   Link #33
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Originally Posted by Sasukeuzi View Post
Well in the Fate series magic is kind of treated as Science.
"Science is an art that goes towards the future, while magic is one that delves in the past"- Tohsaka Rin.
Science isn't really an art. Art is about personal expression and creation, where the only limit is your own imagination, while science is about learning more about the natural world and accepting what it has to say about reality. Science is very rooted in established scientific laws and theories. I like Sci-Fi because it can be very interesting to see where such laws and theories and knowledge of the natural world could possibly take us if we continue to scientifically advance, but (good) Sci-Fi recognizes that some things are simply impossible, period. Magic, in my view, is all about going beyond laws and theories, and magic is also about making the impossible, possible. So magic-based stories have their own distinct charm, which I'd rather they not lose.

Miyu viewing personal flight as "impossible" while Illya just makes it happen with ease is a beautiful example of such charming magic. That certainly doesn't seem very scientific to me (nor does the way that a certain golden-armored antagonist carries himself in other Fate/Series works ). I don't really see how the magic in this show is like science.
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Old 2013-08-11, 16:16   Link #34
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This has to be one out of many epic, magic-girl episodes.

** Likely, it would be taken as a spoiler if I refer to this Saber incarnation by her name, so I'll call her for the time being as Black Saber.


The mana mist was one of a tough babe for our little magic-girls to budge, so what they did? Resort to option three: Handing Ruby and Sapphire back to both Rin and Luvia, respectively, and if only temporarily, to take things to the next level.

Watching the girls fighting was cute but more ridiculously cute having Ruby delivering her magical chop on them.


As well, Rin's getting older to keep dressing on magical-girl costumes, but please Rin-san don't take your frustration on Ruby. She's only telling the truth!

And, here comes again Black Saber roaring and rampaging against her enemies like a mindless beast, but I hope she will fall against Rin and Luvia's superb, magical-girl combo.
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Old 2013-08-12, 14:04   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Science isn't really an art. Art is about personal expression and creation, where the only limit is your own imagination, while science is about learning more about the natural world and accepting what it has to say about reality. Science is very rooted in established scientific laws and theories. I like Sci-Fi because it can be very interesting to see where such laws and theories and knowledge of the natural world could possibly take us if we continue to scientifically advance, but (good) Sci-Fi recognizes that some things are simply impossible, period. Magic, in my view, is all about going beyond laws and theories, and magic is also about making the impossible, possible. So magic-based stories have their own distinct charm, which I'd rather they not lose.

Miyu viewing personal flight as "impossible" while Illya just makes it happen with ease is a beautiful example of such charming magic. That certainly doesn't seem very scientific to me (nor does the way that a certain golden-armored antagonist carries himself in other Fate/Series works ). I don't really see how the magic in this show is like science.
When he said magic is like "science" in this show, he means that the Nasuverse typically does have very elaborate descriptions how magic works, and sometimes the descriptions are methodical to the point of being scientific. Additionally, magic in the Nasuverse has been known to be limited.

Even this is a spinoff and the flying was played off as something humorous, there still is a technical description for why Ilya can fly. As Rin stated after their defeat against the Caster card, it takes a very clear image of what flight is like in order to actually fly. Even if it is second nature to Ilya, there is still a specific process behind it - like the distribution of mana - to make it happen.

Miyu who couldn't imagine what it's like to fly still developed her own method of "flying" by concentrating mana underneath her feet to create a sort of platform that lets her walk on air. Sapphire specifically mentioned that Miyu's method uses about the same amount of mana as Ilya's flying and that neither is inherently better than the other.
Since Ilya's flying isn't inherently more efficient than Miyu's methodical approach to airborne travel, then it implies Ilya is using an equivalent amount of mana to fly that Miyu does to air-hike, even if she is doing it subconsciously.
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Old 2013-08-12, 17:34   Link #36
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
When he said magic is like "science" in this show, he means that the Nasuverse typically does have very elaborate descriptions how magic works, and sometimes the descriptions are methodical to the point of being scientific.
You can be very methodical without being particularly scientific. The way the Catholic church goes about selecting a new Pope is highly complex and methodical. But I doubt many would call it "scientific". "Scientific" implies more than just "complex and methodical", imo.


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Additionally, magic in the Nasuverse has been known to be limited.
Someone should tell Gilgamesh that.


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Even this is a spinoff and the flying was played off as something humorous,
It was partly humorous, but it was also pointing out how the strength of one's imagination is very important to being a good magic-user.


Quote:
there still is a technical description for why Ilya can fly.
It's a very basic description that anybody can understand. And it's much more like art than like science. Calling it a "technical description" is making it out to be much more complex than it actually is.


Quote:
Miyu who couldn't imagine what it's like to fly...
Because personalized human flight (at least the way Illya does it) does not conform to science.


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... still developed her own method of "flying" by concentrating mana underneath her feet to create a sort of platform that lets her walk on air.
Because jumping from one platform to another does conform to science.


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Sapphire specifically mentioned that Miyu's method uses about the same amount of mana as Ilya's flying and that neither is inherently better than the other.
When it comes to mana use. But I would argue that Ilya's method is better overall because it's smoother, more versatile, and potentially faster (flight speed tends to be faster than running speed or jumping speed).
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Old 2013-08-12, 20:11   Link #37
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You can be very methodical without being particularly scientific. The way the Catholic church goes about selecting a new Pope is highly complex and methodical. But I doubt many would call it "scientific". "Scientific" implies more than just "complex and methodical", imo.
The election process for the Pope (or any government official in general) is not scientific because the candidates in question are not elected based on some fundamental world law that can clearly define them as worthy but the judgments of a group of people.

The magic in the Nasuverse on the other hand is limited by many factors: the starting "energy level" of the initiator, the energy required to make what they want to happen, happen, and the pathway/mechanism to make something happen which in turn affects how much energy is needed.
That is very similar to a chemical reaction, which depends on the amount of energy already in the system, the process by which the reaction proceeds in order to form the desired product, and the amount of energy needed to get past the activation barrier for the reaction to happen.


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Someone should tell Gilgamesh that.
Gilgamesh lost.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It was partly humorous, but it was also pointing out how the strength of one's imagination is very important to being a good magic-user.

It's a very basic description that anybody can understand. And it's much more like art than like science. Calling it a "technical description" is making it out to be much more complex than it actually is.
Of course, but I'm merely stating that magic, especially Nasuverse magic has its limitations based on the world's principles... or at least Nasu's idea of the metaphysical world.

It's not something that is proportional to willpower alone. If that was the case, then Rin and Luvia should be able to take out the Class cards more easily than Ilya and Miyu, even without the Kaleidosticks. They also should be able to access the mirror world without the sticks.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Because personalized human flight (at least the way Illya does it) does not conform to science.

Because jumping from one platform to another does conform to science.
The problem is that it's not as simple as "wish it and it will happen", because in that case people like Shirou and Archer should be able to trace a perfect copy of divine weapons like Excalibur and Ea with no problems. Miyu also shouldn't need Gae Bolg for a sure kill. Why can't she or Ilya just imagine their enemies getting obliterated and have it happen right then and there?

The fact of the matter is that even if all Ilya needs to do is "think" to fly, it's because Ruby was created and designed to take care most of the legwork required to make it happen. It's no different from Shirou doing what he did in Heaven's Feel thanks to Archer's arm.



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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
When it comes to mana use. But I would argue that Ilya's method is better overall because it's smoother, more versatile, and potentially faster (flight speed tends to be faster than running speed or jumping speed).
Floating in midair also means the person has no footing needed to put your weight behind melee attacks and defense.
That's merely your preference to fly over air walking.
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Old 2013-08-13, 06:18   Link #38
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post

The magic in the Nasuverse on the other hand is limited by many factors: the starting "energy level" of the initiator, the energy required to make what they want to happen, happen, and the pathway/mechanism to make something happen which in turn affects how much energy is needed.
You speak of this limitation, but how often does it actually come into effect? How often is a Nasuverse protagonist not able to achieve what they want to achieve purely due to lack of "magical energy"?

In Nasuverse, as in virtually every universe where a lot of combat goes on, some combatants are simply more experienced, powerful, tougher, well-armed, etc... than others. That's not particularly scientific.

It should also be noted that the Nasuverse does have its Holy Grail, who's only real limitation seems to lay in the mind of its user.


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Gilgamesh lost.
Due to hubris, not lack of ability. Gilgamesh also completely and totally flaunted the laws of physics in Fate/Zero.


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Of course, but I'm merely stating that magic, especially Nasuverse magic has its limitations based on the world's principles... or at least Nasu's idea of the metaphysical world.
It's not the world's principles, that's for sure.


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The problem is that it's not as simple as "wish it and it will happen", because in that case people like Shirou and Archer should be able to trace a perfect copy of divine weapons like Excalibur and Ea with no problems. Miyu also shouldn't need Gae Bolg for a sure kill. Why can't she or Ilya just imagine their enemies getting obliterated and have it happen right then and there?
Good grief, man. Nobody said that individual magic-users were essentially omnipotent. But magic itself in Nasuverse does not conform to science. It enables people to break the laws of physics. It lets people do some things that would otherwise be impossible.


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Floating in midair also means the person has no footing needed to put your weight behind melee attacks and defense.
If you fly at someone and make a good melee attack while doing so, you're putting quite a bit of added force behind it. More than someone merely air walking.


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That's merely your preference to fly over air walking.
No, it's not. Flight does allow objective advantages over air walking. Flight is smoother, more versatile, and potentially faster.

Question: Aside from teleportation, what's the shortest way to get from Point A to Point B?

Answer: A straight line.

With flight, you can always get to a desired mid-air destination in a straight line, as long as you aim yourself properly. With air walking/leaping, you may often have to take many separate leaps to get there. With air walking/leaping, you're not moving in a straight line.
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Old 2013-08-13, 13:28   Link #39
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You speak of this limitation, but how often does it actually come into effect? How often is a Nasuverse protagonist not able to achieve what they want to achieve purely due to lack of "magical energy"?

In Nasuverse, as in virtually every universe where a lot of combat goes on, some combatants are simply more experienced, powerful, tougher, well-armed, etc... than others. That's not particularly scientific.

It should also be noted that the Nasuverse does have its Holy Grail, who's only real limitation seems to lay in the mind of its user.
Shirou repeatedly breaks his traced weapons on during battles due to his low magical energy and lack of technique. It's also repeatedly mentioned that Saber's abilities are hindered thanks to Shirou's low mana supply.

And being more powerful and well-armed are physical advantages that can be explained through science, or more specifically through physics. A larger and more bulky person has more mass. Mass is directly proportional to force and momentum. When two forces directly collide, the net force will naturally be closer in direction to the larger component force.

The "Holy Grail" as created in Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero are also not perfect wish-granting machines. It's mentioned several times how corrupted it has become.

Additionally, it didn't grant Kotomine happiness, Gilgamesh ownership over Saber

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Due to hubris, not lack of ability. Gilgamesh also completely and totally flaunted the laws of physics in Fate/Zero.
Of course not. The Servants are not human.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's not the world's principles, that's for sure.
Depends on what principles. There is such a thing as metaphysical principles, which is what Nasu bases his fantasies on.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Good grief, man. Nobody said that individual magic-users were essentially omnipotent. But magic itself in Nasuverse does not conform to science. It enables people to break the laws of physics. It lets people do some things that would otherwise be impossible.
Of course it breaks the laws of physics. What's the point of magecraft if it couldn't do anything that technology already couldn't?

My point is that there is a clear set of laws that all Nasuverse magic conforms to. It may be theoretical and completely fabricated by Nasu himself, but everything still conforms to the world that Nasu created, even if that world is not the same as ours. It's no different from a sci-fi. The idea isn't that they're bending reality to their will, but that their reality is defined to be different from ours.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If you fly at someone and make a good melee attack while doing so, you're putting quite a bit of added force behind it. More than someone merely air walking.
And if the opponent blocks it and pushes back, you have no footing to stand your ground. Or do you think Ilya can make a hole into something like Berserker just by flying into him?


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, it's not. Flight does allow objective advantages over air walking. Flight is smoother, more versatile, and potentially faster.

Question: Aside from teleportation, what's the shortest way to get from Point A to Point B?

Answer: A straight line.

With flight, you can always get to a desired mid-air destination in a straight line, as long as you aim yourself properly. With air walking/leaping, you may often have to take many separate leaps to get there. With air walking/leaping, you're not moving in a straight line.
It was already stated that Ilya is faster and more agile than Miyu. That however does not imply that airwalking does not have its own advantages. As I've stated before, there are cases where you want to have some footing.
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Old 2013-08-13, 15:42   Link #40
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And if the opponent blocks it and pushes back, you have no footing to stand your ground. Or do you think Ilya can make a hole into something like Berserker just by flying into him?
I have no intention of arguing the other points (since I think you two are arguing two different definitions of "science"), but I have to question this. Somebody who can fly can generate forward force, hence in the case of resistance can simply attempt to use more force to continue pushing forward. There's nothing special about "footing," other than that it's the ground that's providing the upward force to keep the character standing. In the case of Miyu's aerial platforms, I would think that they would break or fall if subject to too much force, unless Miyu uses extra power to reinforce them, unless you have a source otherwise?
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