AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Total Eclipse/Muv-Luv

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-11-27, 05:28   Link #81
Alastor Mobius Toth
Idar Lead
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: World Marshall bureau
Yeah, they are different.

Stella was using the AMWS-21, which is the standard American TSF armament, and is also used by U.N forces.

The Japanese use Type-87 Assault cannon, which has much shorter barrels and bullpup design; it looks like FN P90. The French, Germans, Soviets and possibly Chinese all have their own designs as well.
__________________
Let the world fear us all.
It's just means to an end.
Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.
Alastor Mobius Toth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-28, 05:17   Link #82
calubin_175
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Oh actually I meant performance wise. So does that mean even the regular american assault gun is good enough to be a make-shift sniper rifle?
calubin_175 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-28, 10:10   Link #83
grevierr
The Lovable SuBiTA
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sleeping in Yokohama base, Section 9.
Just to set things straight, there are many variants of Assault Rifles, and the UN uses them all depending on the availability of resupply at their location, and the compatibility with the TSFs.

Also, while the Japanese Type-87 did have a variant for precision shooting, by removing the 120mm cannon and including a longer barrel and scope, it is not a true sniper cannon. There have been no details released about other countries having a precision or marksman variant of their assault cannon, including the US AMWS-21. They have sufficient accuracy and range for the purpose, and can be fired with precision in semi-auto mode as per what Stella did in the show. There is the Squad Support Gun used in the European Union, but its more like an MG or large caliber cannon.

This is an sniper cannon...the 1200mm Over the Horizon Cannon:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...1/Tama_pow.png
__________________


When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt. Run in little circles, wave your arms and shout.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-08-16 at 11:08. Reason: Please use the images tag!
grevierr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-28, 11:23   Link #84
Raxnom
煉獄
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Stuck forever in "That" place.
Age: 21
My first though when I saw that the first time was something along "That is one helluva sniper thingy".
__________________
"In peace Vigilance. In war Victory. In death Sacrifice."
Raxnom is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-29, 07:26   Link #85
Alastor Mobius Toth
Idar Lead
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: World Marshall bureau
If I recall correctly, wasn't the Type-87 supposed to be easier to handle in close quarters due to its design as well?
__________________
Let the world fear us all.
It's just means to an end.
Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.
Alastor Mobius Toth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-29, 10:36   Link #86
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
That's what the Wiki says. It's apparently better balanced than the AMWS-21, as the weight of the magazines for the 36mm and 120mm are on top, which should help to reduce recoil, as well as the 36mm magazine being more or less centered, as opposed to the AMWS-21, where the weight of the magazine is to the rear of the rifle.

Mind you, this is all conjecture, based on lots and lots of reading.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-01, 18:28   Link #87
calubin_175
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
I read an a model article from Hobby Japan in complementary with a particular TSFIA chapter, stating that the Type-00C was a candidate to be the Imperial Army next mainstay unit. However, was it already rejected even before entering the evaluation stages in which the Gekkou and the Shiranui 2nd competed?

In terms of performance, I would say the newly commissioned Type-04 should be almost the same as the Type-00C, with better maintainability and production cost.
calubin_175 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-12-01, 19:55   Link #88
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Pretty much. Imperial Japan has a certain problem with lolpolitics and interservice rivalry, albeit so far it's not as bad as WW2 IJA & IJN, wherevthey were assasinating each other's officers.

Other issue is that the Takemi is too goddamned complicated to build, with only 30 airframes produced in one year.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-16, 07:48   Link #89
Fireminer
Lumine Passio
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 8
Just watching "World War Z" and I realized there are a lot of similar of BETA to Zombie. Most noticable are:
1. They are all recycled human corpses.
2. Quantity-tactic.
3. Very hard to kill.
Also, I came to this conclusion that Semi-Automatic (short bursts) is much more useful than Full-Automatic. I mean that TSF squads often find themself surrounded and cut off from the supply. The BETA would also need much more precisive shots to be taken down, which could be easier archived with Semi-Automatic. And not to mention the posibility of overheat.
Fireminer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-16, 15:13   Link #90
Alastor Mobius Toth
Idar Lead
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: World Marshall bureau
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Just watching "World War Z" and I realized there are a lot of similar of BETA to Zombie. Most noticable are:
1. They are all recycled human corpses.
2. Quantity-tactic.
3. Very hard to kill.
Also, I came to this conclusion that Semi-Automatic (short bursts) is much more useful than Full-Automatic. I mean that TSF squads often find themself surrounded and cut off from the supply. The BETA would also need much more precisive shots to be taken down, which could be easier archived with Semi-Automatic. And not to mention the posibility of overheat.
This is (mostly) not accurate, both from the viewpoint of mainstay Alternative VNs, and the expanded material. Please read them more carefully.

...But who am I kidding, I will answer each point separately, just in case.

1.) I will keep saying this until people are sick of it - BETA are not zombies in the Hollywood sense. They. ARE. NOT. Please go back and redo your science classes.

The important part is to remember that BETA are machines, they are not life in the common sense of the word. Of course, that's a bit hypocrtical, because as high-level biology will tell you, we are machines, and pretty damn perfect - the difference is that we are self-aware, and made of "fleshy" bits. In fact, advanced computer technology that we have created was specifically based upon our nervous system and brain, it's just that we used silicon and metals in their construction, not flesh.

Now, BETA are machines - they refer to themselves as machines in the first place. The difference is that they have been made using flesh and biology. Now, the Creators posses incredibly advanced technology - including the (implied) existence of tech that allows matter conversion. In short, with enough energy, it is possible to break down any source of matter into its basic particles. In case of BETA, the materials they collect - natural resources (coal, oil, gems etc.), trees, human corpses etc., are all taken and broken down into carbon mass. With this kind of carbon "sludge", the BETA can do pretty much anything with it. They can use it to build a nuclear submarine, or create more BETA. BETA are not explicitly made out of people - but we are numerous, and if given a chance, a BETA worker will haul our corpse back to Hive to be dissolved. An average BETA trooper would most likely be made out of composition of wood, rocks and several people - except that they would all be first broken down into carbon, and the remade into the whatever material BETA are made from.

It's high level theoretical physics, but it has been worked on, irl.

By contrast, zombies explicitly multiply by infecting other people. You can't make a zombie out of a plant. You can make a laser-class BETA out of a forest though.

2)It's hard to speak of tactics when zombies lack anything besides their most basic instinct to murder all life.

While individual BETA are not explicitly "smart" by human standards, on strategical level, they're actually quite capable. They managed to outmaneuver and outgun two world empires; destroyed almost entire industrial capacity of planet Earth, and systematically destroyed almost every human city across Eurasia.

Keep also in mind, that BETA Superior is capable of actually outthinking humans, as Battle for Yokohama shows, where UN troops are almost completely owned by BETA tactics.

Thinking that BETA are dumb animals is exactly what Superior wants you to do, and mankind has been pretty much dancing in the palm of its tentacles.

Additionally, it's important to note that humans have trouble anticipating BETA strategies; and it most likely works both ways. It's possible that BETA are expert strategists...but their strategies might not work against something as incomprehensible to them as human mind. (Note that when BETA inadvertently learn in M-L: A how humans think, the human forces pretty much start get massacred).

3)BETAs are harder to kill - most zombies are killed by headshots, leaving the question of how good of a shot you are (most soldiers are trained to actually aim at the corpus, because accurately aiming automatic rifles is not easy, especially at a relatively small target like head).

BETA do not accurately reassemble humans, and thus can sustain injuries in an area that would otherwise kill humans. For example, Grappler-class "head" is in fact only a sensor module; blowing it up won't instantly kill Grappler like it would kill zombies.

4.)Because of the above, precise fire with BETA is not exactly worth much. Especially since most BETA strains are quite big anyway, you don't have to be accurate to damage them anyway, or because their toughness would mean that you wouldn't do more damage then by just punching them full of holes.

Semi-automatic fire may be good for dedicated sniper units (which are rare), but they are useless in frontal combat, when you need the maximum volume of fire to stop the BETA. Taking a few potshots at them won't be enough- you need a literal wall of fire to even slow them down - which is why almost every TSF weapon is some sort of automatic firearm.

Additionally, barrels can be replaced. US machine gunners did it all the way back during WW2 when dealing with massed Japanese assaults. Barrels too hot to fire? Change it. Sure, it's a lapse in fire, but so is changing of a magazine.
__________________
Let the world fear us all.
It's just means to an end.
Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.
Alastor Mobius Toth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-16, 18:39   Link #91
Fireminer
Lumine Passio
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth View Post
This is (mostly) not accurate, both from the viewpoint of mainstay Alternative VNs, and the expanded material. Please read them more carefully.

...But who am I kidding, I will answer each point separately, just in case.

1.) I will keep saying this until people are sick of it - BETA are not zombies in the Hollywood sense. They. ARE. NOT. Please go back and redo your science classes.

The important part is to remember that BETA are machines, they are not life in the common sense of the word. Of course, that's a bit hypocrtical, because as high-level biology will tell you, we are machines, and pretty damn perfect - the difference is that we are self-aware, and made of "fleshy" bits. In fact, advanced computer technology that we have created was specifically based upon our nervous system and brain, it's just that we used silicon and metals in their construction, not flesh.

Now, BETA are machines - they refer to themselves as machines in the first place. The difference is that they have been made using flesh and biology. Now, the Creators posses incredibly advanced technology - including the (implied) existence of tech that allows matter conversion. In short, with enough energy, it is possible to break down any source of matter into its basic particles. In case of BETA, the materials they collect - natural resources (coal, oil, gems etc.), trees, human corpses etc., are all taken and broken down into carbon mass. With this kind of carbon "sludge", the BETA can do pretty much anything with it. They can use it to build a nuclear submarine, or create more BETA. BETA are not explicitly made out of people - but we are numerous, and if given a chance, a BETA worker will haul our corpse back to Hive to be dissolved. An average BETA trooper would most likely be made out of composition of wood, rocks and several people - except that they would all be first broken down into carbon, and the remade into the whatever material BETA are made from.

It's high level theoretical physics, but it has been worked on, irl.

By contrast, zombies explicitly multiply by infecting other people. You can't make a zombie out of a plant. You can make a laser-class BETA out of a forest though.

2)It's hard to speak of tactics when zombies lack anything besides their most basic instinct to murder all life.

While individual BETA are not explicitly "smart" by human standards, on strategical level, they're actually quite capable. They managed to outmaneuver and outgun two world empires; destroyed almost entire industrial capacity of planet Earth, and systematically destroyed almost every human city across Eurasia.

Keep also in mind, that BETA Superior is capable of actually outthinking humans, as Battle for Yokohama shows, where UN troops are almost completely owned by BETA tactics.

Thinking that BETA are dumb animals is exactly what Superior wants you to do, and mankind has been pretty much dancing in the palm of its tentacles.

Additionally, it's important to note that humans have trouble anticipating BETA strategies; and it most likely works both ways. It's possible that BETA are expert strategists...but their strategies might not work against something as incomprehensible to them as human mind. (Note that when BETA inadvertently learn in M-L: A how humans think, the human forces pretty much start get massacred).

3)BETAs are harder to kill - most zombies are killed by headshots, leaving the question of how good of a shot you are (most soldiers are trained to actually aim at the corpus, because accurately aiming automatic rifles is not easy, especially at a relatively small target like head).

BETA do not accurately reassemble humans, and thus can sustain injuries in an area that would otherwise kill humans. For example, Grappler-class "head" is in fact only a sensor module; blowing it up won't instantly kill Grappler like it would kill zombies.

4.)Because of the above, precise fire with BETA is not exactly worth much. Especially since most BETA strains are quite big anyway, you don't have to be accurate to damage them anyway, or because their toughness would mean that you wouldn't do more damage then by just punching them full of holes.

Semi-automatic fire may be good for dedicated sniper units (which are rare), but they are useless in frontal combat, when you need the maximum volume of fire to stop the BETA. Taking a few potshots at them won't be enough- you need a literal wall of fire to even slow them down - which is why almost every TSF weapon is some sort of automatic firearm.

Additionally, barrels can be replaced. US machine gunners did it all the way back during WW2 when dealing with massed Japanese assaults. Barrels too hot to fire? Change it. Sure, it's a lapse in fire, but so is changing of a magazine.
Well, "Quantity Tactic" doesn't necessary mean the BETA are stupid! It could be even a praise! - I mean one mind controlling and dominating the battlefield, with Petabytes of Data running through it? That is no less of a miracle!

Also, I just mean that BETA and Zombie don't feel pain like human. Even shredded to piece, they will just keep marching!

And the "Semi-Automatic" thing, well, don't you remember BETA is very hard to hit? And never liking the idea of wasting ammunition for that!
Fireminer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-16, 18:59   Link #92
Alastor Mobius Toth
Idar Lead
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: World Marshall bureau
Fair enough, they don't feel pain. Or at least, the pain as we define it.

BETAs are not hard to hit, at least, as long as you have a halfway decent fire-control system. In fact, quite the opposite, individual BETAs are hopelessly outclassed in mid-ranged combat (laserhax notwithstanding). They are mostly slow and unmanuverable, while those that are fast (Tank-class), are still easy to kill if you manage to keep them at range. Their very numbers work also against them - a single BETA wave will have so many creatures in it, that even if you miss, you'll hit something else anyway.

Also, ammunition is less of a concern for a TSF (Which is a standard for almost every military sci-fi ever); an average TSF is supposed to carry a dozen or so of magazines, each which has 2000 36mm caseless rounds. And several 6-shot 120mm magazines.

The problem is that this ammo will run out anyway at some point. Burst/Semi-automatic fire will only delay the inevitable, or may even hasten it, as the BETA will overrun the troops that are not firing enough bullets.
__________________
Let the world fear us all.
It's just means to an end.
Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.
Alastor Mobius Toth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-16, 21:10   Link #93
Fireminer
Lumine Passio
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 8
Just thinking about pain. Like all other sense, it is both a nature and the fruit of a living process. So guess that since BETA was built as predator, it could has these atributes:

- The lack of experience lead to the problem of defiyng pain.

- Dulled sense (a two-edge blade), or the lack of pain respond brain region.

- Release hormones when encounter pain.

(Also, could anyone found me a price chart of TSFs in Ult/Alt?)
Fireminer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-16, 21:26   Link #94
John117xCortana
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Actually, the BETA are miners.
John117xCortana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-16, 22:29   Link #95
gbatemper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by John117xCortana View Post
Actually, the BETA are miners.
How the fuck does one not know this? I thought it was well established..


Imo, the biggest plot hole in Muv-luv is the economy.
I know it's the end of the world and everyone is geared for war...But think about it.

TSF's are much more complex and eat equal or even more fuel then a normal jet. We can expect a TSF to cost at least 100 million dollars.
Now, how the fuck are they spamming so many TSF's? Theirs the whole 7 minute thing, which means shitloads of recruits in TSF's die. That's billions of fucking dollars!!!

Now, the BETA can easily destroy a 100 million dollar+ TSF in 1 swoop. I don't see how producing TSF's could ever be economically feasible. It's not only logistically impossible to economically support, but if you factor in the fuel, and how fast the TSF's uses it, that even adds more cost.

This is addition to the multiple goverment projects such as Alternative 1, 2, 3 etc, or XG-70, Prominence, etc. How the fuck are they funding all this? Even if they sold war bonds to every single person on earth they wouldn't have enough money.
gbatemper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-16, 23:41   Link #96
Fireminer
Lumine Passio
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbatemper View Post
How the fuck does one not know this? I thought it was well established..


Imo, the biggest plot hole in Muv-luv is the economy.
I know it's the end of the world and everyone is geared for war...But think about it.

TSF's are much more complex and eat equal or even more fuel then a normal jet. We can expect a TSF to cost at least 100 million dollars.
Now, how the fuck are they spamming so many TSF's? Theirs the whole 7 minute thing, which means shitloads of recruits in TSF's die. That's billions of fucking dollars!!!

Now, the BETA can easily destroy a 100 million dollar+ TSF in 1 swoop. I don't see how producing TSF's could ever be economically feasible. It's not only logistically impossible to economically support, but if you factor in the fuel, and how fast the TSF's uses it, that even adds more cost.

This is addition to the multiple goverment projects such as Alternative 1, 2, 3 etc, or XG-70, Prominence, etc. How the fuck are they funding all this? Even if they sold war bonds to every single person on earth they wouldn't have enough money.
Ah, it's one of the most illogical thing in Real Robot, and I expect it wouldn't be answered in a foreseeable future! Even something as small as Knightmare Frame still need many resources to produce.
Fireminer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-17, 02:02   Link #97
gbatemper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Ah, it's one of the most illogical thing in Real Robot, and I expect it wouldn't be answered in a foreseeable future! Even something as small as Knightmare Frame still need many resources to produce.
Yes. Just look at how big a truck or plane has to be just to move around TSF parts of a whole fucking TSF. I bet they eat gas like bitch!

Thinking about it..fuel is the main issue of Muv-luv. Not food.

China, Russia, and the Middle East are all overrun with BETA.
How are we supplying our TSF's with adequate fuel, simply from North America and Africa? We should run by the year 2000 in Muv-luv, realistically speaking

Last edited by gbatemper; 2013-08-17 at 02:24.
gbatemper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-17, 07:29   Link #98
Alastor Mobius Toth
Idar Lead
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: World Marshall bureau
Magic.

Seriously, there have been several attempts to answer this little hole, and all answers boil down to "Muv-Luv economies are magic; don't think about it".
__________________
Let the world fear us all.
It's just means to an end.
Our salvation lies in the Father's sins.
Alastor Mobius Toth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-17, 18:59   Link #99
calubin_175
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
They'll just say in this alternate reality, there is way more fuel left in the intact continents than we can imagine.
calubin_175 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-17, 21:08   Link #100
gbatemper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by calubin_175 View Post
They'll just say in this alternate reality, there is way more fuel left in the intact continents than we can imagine.
Yes, but that doesn't really make sense.
They say history in Muv-luv has a divergence in WW2.

If their is way more fuel left, that means history diverged hundreds of thousands of years ago. not since ww2.
gbatemper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.