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Old 2013-08-16, 20:11   Link #32801
GuestSpeaker
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There certainly is evidence for that.

Even though he is always said to be the utmost in professional of servants, I do seem to remember someone saying that even he slacks off in the break room when no-one is around. Plus, there is him encouraging Kanon to go play in his time off in ep 1.

ALSO, you know from all those cookie references that he used to bake cookies for Maria and Yasu (And potentially even Kinzo, though I doubt that scene with Chibi-beato and Battler is actually meant to show that. If anything, he probably taught her how to bake)
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Old 2013-08-17, 05:28   Link #32802
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Let us surpass Lady Erika in the 5th game, the riddle with the Envelope and the Knock.

The solution is openly hinted at, in that Lambda-Sama didn't rule out those outside the mansion for either the knock or the envelope.

It's easy enough to say One of the adults, Nanjo or Kuwasawa take your pick (or even George) left the aforementioned group(that was going to the Guesthouse) for just a second with a convenient excuse and slid the envelope through the shaft then knocked on the door.

Lambda-Sama's "trick" is a very basic one: You'd have to assume that George-tachi actually MADE it to the Guesthouse during the time the letter and the knock were made.
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Old 2013-08-17, 06:19   Link #32803
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Let us surpass Lady Erika in the 5th game, the riddle with the Envelope and the Knock.

The solution is openly hinted at, in that Lambda-Sama didn't rule out those outside the mansion for either the knock or the envelope.

It's easy enough to say One of the adults, Nanjo or Kuwasawa take your pick (or even George) left the aforementioned group(that was going to the Guesthouse) for just a second with a convenient excuse and slid the envelope through the shaft then knocked on the door.

Lambda-Sama's "trick" is a very basic one: You'd have to assume that George-tachi actually MADE it to the Guesthouse during the time the letter and the knock were made.
There was no knock at all! The letter was openly brought there on the table by someone. Although now that I think about it... did Erika even see that letter once? Maybe it doesn't exist either...
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Old 2013-08-17, 07:01   Link #32804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
There was no knock at all! The letter was openly brought there on the table by someone. Although now that I think about it... did Erika even see that letter once? Maybe it doesn't exist either...
It is not unlikely that there was a letter, at least for the context of that game's mystery narrative, but it was probably openly brought to the table by a servant or Battler and then the story around it's arrival was created to corner not necessarily Erika but Krauss and Natsuhi.
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Old 2013-08-17, 08:06   Link #32805
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
There was no knock at all!
None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

This references to whether or not an alternative sound was created, that could replicate a knock. Lambda-Sama ruled that out.

But I propose to extend the meaning to say that no one would hear a 'knocking sound' that never existed.
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Old 2013-08-17, 10:18   Link #32806
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

This references to whether or not an alternative sound was created, that could replicate a knock. Lambda-Sama ruled that out.

But I propose to extend the meaning to say that no one would hear a 'knocking sound' that never existed.
That is exactly what I was saying... it is similar to the solution of EP2TL1. Basically: The scene where people were claiming to hear a knocking sound was a lie, just like the magic battle in EP3 between Beato and Virgillia was a lie and just like the door in EP2TL1 was never locked.
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Old 2013-08-17, 14:17   Link #32807
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
That is exactly what I was saying... it is similar to the solution of EP2TL1. Basically: The scene where people were claiming to hear a knocking sound was a lie, just like the magic battle in EP3 between Beato and Virgillia was a lie and just like the door in EP2TL1 was never locked.
Opps, my blue truth ended up strengthening your argument. Mostly because I meant No one would mishear a knock that didn't exist.

(But my other blue is still effective. That's a valid interpretation)

I think both the knock and the letter are real, the only reason it's a riddle is that Erika/Bernkastel focused far too much on the people "inside the mansion", when in truth it could've easily been done by anyone outside of the mansion.
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Old 2013-08-17, 14:21   Link #32808
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I think both the knock and the letter are real, the only reason it's a riddle is that Erika/Bernkastel focused far too much on the people "inside the mansion", when in truth it could've easily been done by anyone outside of the mansion.
How could anyone outside the mansion have easily made the knock and left the letter?
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Old 2013-08-17, 15:22   Link #32809
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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
How could anyone outside the mansion have easily made the knock and left the letter?
Person "X", let's say Kuwasawa tells the group she left something at the mansion and goes to get it back. With a valid reasoning, not even Lady Erika suspects her. Kuwasawa slides the letter through a shaft in the door and knocks on the door before leaving.

The only red truths surrounding those who weren't at the mansion are:

Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion

It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.

What's important about the first Red Truth is that they 'moved to the guest house' but they weren't Placed inside the guest house

In other words, no one was able to objectively confirm their location. It's not even given the power of the Red Truth. It's just assumed they moved to the guest house, eventually.

Lambda-sama confirms the meaning of the first red with the second red.

You might think the third red negates my theory, but it doesn't negate my theory As long as the person could have placed the letter and knocked from outside of the mansion

And I showed an example of just such a theory.

Last edited by ALPHA-Beatrice; 2013-08-17 at 15:35.
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Old 2013-08-17, 15:56   Link #32810
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[...]This means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed.
It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.
Basically you can translate that to: No one inside the mansion caused a knocking sound and no one outside the mansion is able to create a knocking sound that can be heard inside the mension
Result: No human on the island could have created a knocking sound at that time, that could be heard by those in the dining hall.
And the conclusion in simple terms: There was no knocking sound at that time!

Unless you can find a flaw here, this is checkmate.
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Last edited by GreyZone; 2013-08-17 at 16:15.
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Old 2013-08-17, 16:17   Link #32811
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
[...]This means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed.
It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.
Basically you can translate that to: No one inside the mansion caused a knocking sound and no one outside the mansion is able to create a knocking sound that can be heard inside the mension
Result: No human on the island could have created a knocking sound at that time, that could be heard by those in the dining hall.
And the conclusion in simple terms: There was no knocking sound at that time!

Unless you can find a flaw here, this is checkmate.

My Blue Truth: Even though the 'sound' was heard inside the mansion, the 'knock' is caused by an outside action. In other words, a knock doesn't invalidate the ruling that no one inside the mansion could have caused it.

Blue Truth #2: That statement of Lambda-Sama's refers to the possibility that 'Person X' hid inside the mansion. It doesn't invalidate any outside influence.
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Old 2013-08-17, 16:27   Link #32812
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
My Blue Truth: Even though the 'sound' was heard inside the mansion, the 'knock' is caused by an outside action. In other words, a knock doesn't invalidate the ruling that no one inside the mansion could have caused it.
[...]In other words, all of them would correctly distinguish a knocking sound of something truly hitting the door, and they definitely wouldn't mishear it. It's totally impossible that any sounds except hitting that door directly would be misinterpreted as a knock!!
'To knock' means someone hitting a door with their hand
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Blue Truth #2: That statement of Lambda-Sama's refers to the possibility that 'Person X' hid inside the mansion. It doesn't invalidate any outside influence.
Let it be known that at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

And this should deny it completely:
At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.

Again, unless you find a flaw, this is check mate.



EDIT:
I just realized a small mistake by Erika and Bern: Bern said "From 24:00 until morning, a living Kinzo could only have existed inside Natsuhi's bed. And last night, Natsuhi also slept in that same bed." But the red truth above contradicts that. She made a FALSE RED TRUTH. Plot hole detected!
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Last edited by GreyZone; 2013-08-17 at 16:57.
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Old 2013-08-17, 17:12   Link #32813
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Spoiler for Regarding Knocks and Letters:


Spoiler for Regarding Gaap:


Spoiler for Responding to Renall:
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Old 2013-08-17, 18:38   Link #32814
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Episode 8 reveals Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things: All the Goats!

Seriously, R07 casts the audience as literal consumers of media so much that it's starting to hurt my feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Spoiler for Regarding Gaap:
None of this eliminates the possibility of Jessica as vessel for Gaap, or any of the support for. It doesn't appear that Yasu made any of the characters out of nothing; there was always some interaction informing her model of her characters. That Jessica wasn't close with Yasu doesn't mean they didn't interact at all, and Yasu could've been left with just enough impression to imagine a headstrong, haughty prankster with mysterious powers. Someone who isn't under anyone's power but would be helpful to friends, someone independent and spirited -- someone who Jessica would be more comfortable being than the persona her mother and father obligate her to adopt. Yasu's impression could've perpetuated long after Jessica and Shannon did become close, and even become stronger the more Jessica showed that side of herself even more.

That a vessel is required doesn't further require that the vessel be present and performing the role at all times -- only that it had to have existed. Gaap's vessel certainly would need to be there along with Genji and Kumasawa and Sakuturo and the Stakes while roleplaying with Maria. While Maria may accept someone acting a character as being that character, swapping roles right in front of her would be too confusing for her to accept. That Yasu "has too many personalities" would be a silly argument, and you could have only read that by eliminating the rest of it: that another personality, especially in this situation, overstresses suspension of disbelief, for the readers and for Maria.

Last edited by DokEnkephalin; 2013-08-17 at 19:07.
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Old 2013-08-17, 19:47   Link #32815
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/shrug

Never said it was literally impossible for Jessica to be a vessel for Gaap, I suppose Ryu could always do an interview after the fact and claim that was always his intent. Just that, for the story in front of us, it's a very weak argument and really messy with how both Jessica, and Yasu's friend-creation-factory are characterized. The support is very insubstantial ; I can just as easily claim Gaap's vessel was Natsuhi or Godha.

Also, of course Yasu interacted with Jessica, that should be obvious. Jessica is probably her best friend.
Also, of course the vessel doesn't have to be present and performing at all times, that should be obvious, too.

Also, I haven't neglected to read your other posts, but you bring up the topic by saying
Quote:
Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
Yeah, it's not strictly necessary, but having a physical analogue would fortify character integrity for Yasu, Beatrice and Maria. It could be Beatrice playing the role, since Gaap originally was Beatrice, but she's already multiple-personality overloaded, and that may be enough to shatter Maria's willing suspension of disbelief (not to mention mine.)
So, I assume you think Yasu's "multiple-personality overloaded" self would shatter Maria's willing suspension of disbelief (the same disbelief that apparently extends so far she gives Beatrice permission to possess her body so they can hang out. I'm not saying Maria is stupid (well, she kind of is, but I prefer to say 'pure-hearted' ), but she's already suspending her disbelief quite a bit. She's 9, and has quite the imagination, and it's not like she was ever sitting across from a busty blonde woman in a ball gown on any of those times they playes together.

And if Yasu also bearing the 'Gaap, my good friend' persona is the straw that broke the camels back on how many personalities became too many personalioties, than ... you are a stronger man than I, I'll put it that way.

Anyway, you do make a good point that a vessel would fortify integrity, but there isn't a clear analogue for Gaap like there is for the others, no person who fits the role with the overt tells that Kumasawa and Genji had, no specially mentioned objects (there IS the doll Jessica finds in the VIP room, but it doesn't fit much with Gaap's image at all). It really just seems Gaap exists mostly as a concept. Perhaps she and Maria just used a drawing when they were getting their witch on, or maybe some old dolls that Jessica used to have, and Yasu went out of her way to get a red dress for it, I'unno.
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Old 2013-08-17, 22:39   Link #32816
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Let's not forget that Virugilia was originally supposed to be a completely different character, and one who was unlikely to have any sort of vessel. I guess we could say that the vessel thing was something Ryu thought up after that change, but it certainly wasn't always his goal.

Regarding ep 5, what do you guys think Ronove meant by "it lacks love"? I have begun to think it was because Lambda changed Yasu's primary motivation from Battler's love to basically torturing Natsuhi (usually just a secondary goal)


Also I was thinking about the reset Ange goes through in ep 8, and the manga does somewhat justify it by saying that after Bern's red in the ep 7 teaparty that Ange basically rejects the idea that her parents are to blame and once again desperately swings back to Eva. Maybe epiphanies on forgiveness are easier to hold when someone is holding a gun to your head (plus technically if her school-mates said it, it was before her journey anyway)
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Old 2013-08-18, 00:54   Link #32817
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Also going back to that older discussion over stealing the gold, I wouldn't say there is NO evidence that Bice and Kinzo conspired together. It is often talked about how Kinzo and Beatrice had a "contract" together for the gold, and we know from ep 4 that kinzo once chose to kill everyone else to save himself and his beloved. Knowing Bice's characterisation, I feel she wouldn't just be a passive flower awaiting rescue by Kinzo and believing whatever lie he told her about why all her escorts were dead. In fact, we are constantly told that Beatrice offered Kinzo all the gold in exchange for his soul...
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Old 2013-08-18, 07:04   Link #32818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
[...]In other words, all of them would correctly distinguish a knocking sound of something truly hitting the door, and they definitely wouldn't mishear it. It's totally impossible that any sounds except hitting that door directly would be misinterpreted as a knock!!
'To knock' means someone hitting a door with their hand

Of course, my theory doesn't violate that red. I'm saying that the knocking noise was Obviously caused by someone outside of the mansion knocking on the door.

Because of that red truth about no one inside the mansion being able to make the knock, and because of the red truth saying no one would 'mishear' a knock.

We can damn well confirm the possibility that a knock did in fact occur.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyzone
Let it be known that at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

And this should deny it completely:
At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.

Again, unless you find a flaw, this is check mate.
**sips tea and pours you a cup** As always, Chaos Sorcerer this is truly fun.

Was the 'knock' specified to 24:00 on the game board? If it wasn't....

Then one of the people outside of the mansion during the Family Conference placed the letter through the shaft and knocked on the door before 24:00

I mean, it can't be more than a couple of minutes from the Mansion to the Guesthouse, and typically speaking it might take just that amount of time for the startled Ushiromiya family members to answer the door.

It's as Battler said, in this world there are multiple interpretations as long as they don't contradict the known facts. My theory isn't trying to deny your theory, in fact it can't. Because both of our theories need a certain red truth from Lambda to confirm or deny them.

"Absolutely no living person touched the letter."

If a red statement similar to that were made, then that would destroy my theory(and confirm yours). But Lambda did the opposite, she stated that there was a knock and that no one would "mishear" that knock.

Due to Knox's 9th, we can presume the possibility that those in the mansion did indeed fabricate this story. But if we did, we'd fall to the fallacy of another of Knox's rules

Knox's 6th: It's forbidden for accident or intuition to be used as a detective technique

And claiming that they'd all lie is the same to me as a crutch for solving this particular riddle, especially if no red truth pertaining to this specific riddle didn't point to this possibility.
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Old 2013-08-18, 08:02   Link #32819
GoldenLand
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
Was the 'knock' specified to 24:00 on the game board? If it wasn't....

Then one of the people outside of the mansion during the Family Conference placed the letter through the shaft and knocked on the door before 24:00
The knock was specified to 24:00 multiple times on the game board, yes. More specifically, it was specified to 24:00 according to the large clock in the hallway. Also, about an hour beforehand, Shannon and Kanon arrived to serve tea, and multiple characters confirmed that there was no letter in the hallway at that time. Of course, those statements are not in red.

What we do have in red is that It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2013-08-18 at 08:20.
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Old 2013-08-18, 08:23   Link #32820
DokEnkephalin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
The support is very insubstantial ; I can just as easily claim Gaap's vessel was Natsuhi or Godha.
That claim would not be made as easily; its not in either of their character to roleplay with Beatrice at all, much less play a role like Gaap.

Quote:
Also, of course Yasu interacted with Jessica, that should be obvious. Jessica is probably her best friend.
But notice that Gaap appeared before Yasu became familiar with Jessica, when Jessica was still an enigmatic and vibrant figure, easily interpreted as larger-than-life when Yasu was still a child. Jessica was 'Milady', but not someone who regulated her life as Natsuhi did, someone who appeared at her own whim and could entertain herself at the servant's expense. Jessica could be playing the role for Yasu even before she knew this is how Yasu viewed her. Later she could also play it knowingly to entertain Maria -- whether or not she was in the know about Beatrice's role as successor, whether or not she was love with Shannon at this time, she would still be having fun with her friend and cousin.

Quote:
Anyway, you do make a good point that a vessel would fortify integrity, but there isn't a clear analogue for Gaap like there is for the others, no person who fits the role with the overt tells that Kumasawa and Genji had, no specially mentioned objects (there IS the doll Jessica finds in the VIP room, but it doesn't fit much with Gaap's image at all). It really just seems Gaap exists mostly as a concept.
The purely conceptual personification makes sense with Knox and Willard, as they're both representatives for the human, mystery side and they were both introduced as pieces from outside the board. Gaap was a personality cultivated from within the setting.

Alright, let's look at why Gaap without a vessel would be an inconsistency in the setting. First, every other character has a vessel except those possessed by Yasu herself. Out of those, Beatrice and Kanon were formulated in Yasu's imagination before making their appearance, Kanon in greater detail while Beatrice was still gaining in complexity.

Shannon seems like the outlier, but I propose there was a Shannon, a supportive mentor who roomed with Yasu in the beginning, someone Yasu idolized and idealized beyond her actual character. This person left at the same time the entire servant staff turned over and Yasu, now believing herself Shannon, remained in a single room. Turning out the entire staff at once seems unlikely as a coincidence, since the household had a system of non-uniform, rotating terms that, like most Japanese institutions, relied on seniority to smooth the transition between veteran and neophyte members. I would say Genji 'graduated' the old familiar faces before they became aware enough to question an uncomfortable truth, and replaced them with servants unfamiliar enough to never notice. I couldn't conclude that Yasu killed the real Shannon; it would be such a distortion of the 'love as motive' theme of the episode as to invalidate it.

Unlike Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, Gaap arrived without Yasu's prejudice of what she should be like, a fully formed personality. Just like Ronove revealed aspects of Genji's true personality, and Virgilia revealed aspects of Kumasawa's, Gaap showed the flamboyant energy Jessica only gets to express on stage.
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