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Old 2013-07-02, 18:28   Link #241
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryuujinjaaka View Post
Because I feel bad for Kyou and identify with him, I can't stand how Kirino constantly calls him ugly and disgusting, I can't stand when she scorns Kyousuke for totally innocent misunderstandings, and I don't like how she blames him for things that are her fault... [...] Kirino, on the other hand, breaks Kyou down psychologically, laughs in his face, and blames him for everything...
Kyousuke's been basically living his life for 2+ years pretty much ignoring Kirino entirely -- by his own admission, and her own commentary. They were like strangers living in the same house. Do you really think he had elevated her opinion on such a high pedestal that her cheeky petty insults could really "break him down psychologically"? He could just dismiss her as a bratty little sister not worthy of his time and otherwise go back to his normal life ignoring her. But he didn't do this, and it's not because she somehow forced him. It's because he feels responsibility for her as her older brother, and he wants to try to make amends for the past.

So yes, this means he has to face insults from a bratty overachieving girl three years his junior. But it's not as if he started out respecting her or her opinion, so her insults weren't going to stick. If anything, it brings out the same sort of competitive spirit that drove her to emulate his former self: I'll show you I'm not that worthless. Little by little, his competitiveness and drive returns. Because, even though he knows he's a normal person, he finally realizes that he wants to be a good older brother and that he has a long ways to go.

I think you're empathizing with Kyousuke, but you're not really understanding his thought process. Kyousuke and Kirino are siblings, and in a lot of ways they're a lot more similar than they care to admit. "The same blood runs through their veins" is more than just a metaphor. And everything that Kirino became was modelled after who Kyousuke was growing up, and that part of him is still in there somewhere. So the frustration Kirino felt at Kyousuke's sudden change gets channelled through Kirino into the frustration Kyousuke feels at his own limitations, and this compels him to finally move forward. By the end of the story, he's come to terms with his complete persona.

This isn't to say that everything Kirino did is okay, as even she admits her fault. But I think it's important to consider how Kyousuke seemed to perceive it, not just the way you would perceive it in his place. It's pretty clear that you consider Kirino irredeemable, but you're not her older brother.
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Old 2013-07-02, 20:17   Link #242
risingstar3110
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If you hate a character, you won't be able to give a fair judgement on that character, simple as that. Because then you tend to take lines out of context and ignore those that does not support your impression.

So for those of us who think Kirino is an abusive, love to look down on others and acts out on vengeance, can you tell me What did she do.... not what did she say, but what did she do... showing her to have those character traits?.

Because she is abusive, maybe she bullied Kuroneko and threat her to stay away from Kyousuke? She full of vengeance so she went to Kyousuke and Manami school to spread bad words on them, or get her friends teaching them a lesson (Ayase is more than capable here)? Or maybe just purposely get Kyousuke into troubles with their parents, especially the dotting father? She looks down on others , so she found no need to turn up to her friend events or party? You know the drill.

There you can list out all of the bad things Kirino did (remember what she DID, NOT what she SAID) and see if you can do that without ending up have to interpret her line or resort to your subjective perception of her. Just tell me what her actions and the consequences were, that made you despite her so much
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Old 2013-07-03, 01:54   Link #243
kaigan
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@ryuujinjaaka

i still wouldn't call it vengeful. it's a very specific and definite word - seeking revenge. none of kiri's action speaks of this. it just don't fit.

regarding your points:

1. not sure why you highlighted her 'negative' traits while ignoring her more positive ones. do you know how kiri speaks of kyou when he's not around? when she speaks of him to her friends - ayase, kanako, and ran? what are kiri and kuroneko's sms exchanges all about? how do you think kuro fell in love with kyou if the messages are nothing but insults between the siblings? how come kuro came up kiri as brocon?

2. the kuroneko part got deleted but anyway, you should also pay attention to kuro's language or the manner how she speaks to others. if you're anime-only watch 'my junior can't be this rotten' *hint: title*

3. these statements of yours are just claims and not facts. and the author is not trying to salvage kiri's character. he designed it this way because there must be a reason why she ended up this - the history behind it all. he's not telling you to like her, he's explaining kiri's development as a character not for fandom satisfaction.
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Old 2013-07-03, 02:08   Link #244
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@kaigan

It's not Kirino seeking revenge,but just she wanted to keep with him,we all agree on this.

For point 1: Biggest evidence is when Kuroneko tells Kyousuke that she loves him as much as his sister loves him,she also repeats it in a later Volume or S2 Ep6.

Point 2: Cant really add any because the title speaks for itself.

Point 3: You simply have ''genuine'' hate for her @ryuujinjaaka , and thats why you will never have any fair judgement. The author himself admitted that he disliked Kirino at the start but through time she shows her true side(thats what character development is called),he never intended for the reader to forcibly like her, and there was always a reason for her behavior.
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Old 2013-07-04, 12:35   Link #245
Deathscyther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryuujinjaaka View Post
1) My feelings about Kirino- isn't vengefulness a BAD character trait?!! I dunno. At this point we know Kirino wasn't proving her superiority to Kyou, so what's the point of her antics? She's just mad and she's taking it out on Kyou? I have to believe that that's cruel of her. That's the definition of cruelty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryuujinjaaka View Post
Others have been saying that Kirino is trying to make Kyousuke feel what she felt when he picked on her, called her slow, etc. That's why I said vengeful. I'm just responding to that. I should have clarified.
Kirino didn't want vengeance. She didn't mean anything bad with it. At first, she just wanted Kyousuke to change his view on her, so that he wouldn't leave her behind anymore. She wanted to show him that she could keep up with him.

After Kyousuke's change, she continued with this idea to prove to Kyousuke that the way he used to live like was better than how he was living now. Of course, frustration about 'losing' her loved one was one of her drives as well. In Kirino's eyes, she herself represented the old active Kyousuke. In other words, her ideal person. Basically, this was Kirino's way of saying that she hated the way Kyousuke was acting like now and that she wanted him to return to his active self. Maybe she even hoped that this would 'awaken' the active Kyousuke sleeping within as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryuujinjaaka View Post
It especially bothers me how Kirino is mean to Kyou because as far as I can tell he is a little depressive, though he gets better throughout the story (if you disagree I can explain). I just feel so bad for the guy.
Because he is a little depressive? Did you really read the same story I did? It's because Kyousuke's character suddenly completely changed in her eyes. She didn't see this new guy as her brother and that's the reason why she just called him 'hey' or 'you' instead of using his name or 'aniki'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryuujinjaaka View Post
Because I feel bad for Kyou and identify with him, I can't stand how Kirino constantly calls him ugly and disgusting, I can't stand when she scorns Kyousuke for totally innocent misunderstandings, and I don't like how she blames him for things that are her fault, which is more prominent in the LN. I don't think this is just tsundere/sister behavior (I like tsunderes, btw). Tsunderes just call you "baka." and won't say "arigato," and they act a little clumsy about it usually, and then warm up to you. Sisters bicker, but respect. Kirino, on the other hand, breaks Kyou down psychologically, laughs in his face, and blames him for everything, even though it's usually her fault. There's a difference imo. Tsunderes don't want to see you suffer. Kirino does.
I think it actually is mostly tsundere behaviour. She has trouble voicing her real feelings and usually ends up doing/saying the complete opposite when she's angry/embarrassed, especially when it comes to Kyousuke.

Kirino has a faul mouth, but Kyousuke didn't really seem to care when they were still ignoring each other. He didn't take her seriously, since he didn't really care about her back then. The facts that Kirino was so good in everything and that everyone was constantly praising her were actually irritating him more back then. Only when they just started talking again did Kyousuke seem to mind, since he saw her as ungrateful, but he still didn't take the insults too seriously though. But he came to understand her, slowly but surely. He actually compares her to tsundere characters (Rinko-rin) at a few occasions. Kyousuke actually seems to be able to translate Kirino's 'tsundere' language for the most part in the end.

Also, she doesn't want her brother to suffer. She goes a bit too far at times, I won't deny this, but this doesn't mean that she wants to make him suffer. Kirino is a very emotional person and often acts before thinking when she's angry/embarrassed. Her pride might be the biggest problem here. Even if she knows that she did something wrong, she has trouble admitting it. On the whole she's pretty mature for her age, but she can be really childish too.

Anyways, the show is about growing up. Kyousuke and especially Kirino are still young. They have made and will make mistakes because of their childish logic. There are times when their emotions get the better of them. The most important thing is that they learn from their mistakes and grow because of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryuujinjaaka View Post
Oh yeah, she also hits him a lot,and for real, not in the comical way Ayase hits him. Physical abuse.
Haha, sorry but this made me laugh. Throughout the story Kyousuke was hit a lot by Ayase. And yes, this was physical abuse. Very much so. Kirino even had to tend to his wounds one time. Also, Ayase hit him in a comical way? No, she hit him with all her might. Kyousuke was actually scared of her, since he knew he'd end up in pain if he said something wrong in front of her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryuujinjaaka View Post
2) As for looking down on people- the LN says often that Kirino is conceited and looks down on people. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. But you all sort of agreed about this, though. A weird manifestation of this is how she constantly makes Kyousuke kneel to her like when she asks for things. WTH?
I agree that she is conceited. She contstantly calls herself pretty, smart, athletic and the cutest imouto ever after all. But she knows that she has worked hard to get where she is now and thinks it's okay to brag about it.

But she doesn't look down on people. She looked down on (the lazy) Kyousuke and hated Manami, but she had her personal reasons for that as I already explained before. But can you name any other people she looks down onto? Since you call it a fact, then how about showing me some examples? I sure hope that you don't bring up Kuroneko here, since that would mean that you don't understand both of their characters at all.

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Originally Posted by Wilshere View Post
I'm assuming that you ship(like) Kuroneko.
I don't like it when people jump the gun. You're making it sound like he dislikes Kirino in that scene because he likes Kuroneko.

You can actually like or dislike both girls, but still feel sorry for one of them in a certain situation. Not everyone feels the same after reading/seeing a scene. Everyone has his/her own thoughts about it.
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Old 2013-07-04, 14:00   Link #246
Wilshere
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@Deathscyther

I like the way you analyzed her is somehow similar to mine,although you went into detail more, I tend to make it short and right to the point. But one thing is for sure, I never intended to say that he hates Kirino because he likes Kuroneko. His point of kirino looking down on others specifically Kuroneko just made me assume that he tends to like her, I really don't jump to conclusions but thats what I feel. Anyway, I have said this and you have repeated it, I really want him to bring an example of her looking down on others, other than Kuroneko(it really means he never understood them if he does bring her) and the lazy Kyousuke and her eternal ''enemy'' Manami (we all know the reasons so yeah). Maybe you can call me biased,but that's what I got from reading the LN and Kirino had the most character development throughout along with Kyousuke regaining confidence and finding a better way of life (the peace loving and his super side) just like Kirino, her otaku side is a part of her and without it she would not be herself.
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Old 2013-07-22, 05:34   Link #247
hamazura
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what a bitch, i dont like her
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Old 2013-07-25, 07:06   Link #248
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In preparation for the final episodes next month I've started to rewatch the episodes. Just noticed that Kirino is not only buying imouto-type eroge. She has the entire School Days collection, including Summer and Cross Days in her treasury.
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Old 2013-07-25, 16:36   Link #249
finalfury
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Moral of the story, dont make tsundere characters since they are difficult to like. I do wonder what fan response would have been if the story revolved around her school life.
Personally I think the anime adaptation kind of one sided focused on the tsun aspect of her character and caused a spike in the amount of people who disliked her.
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Old 2013-08-06, 19:36   Link #250
El Guapo
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I've been reading this series for about a month now. Sticking to the published manga volumes, so I'm probably not as far into the story as many people are, but I plan to start watching the anime when I get a block of time to do it.

Anyway, it seems like there is a lot of Kirino-hate in the fan community for this series, so it's refreshing to see people in a thread sticking up for her. I personally have liked her from the start. She has sort of an image that she's created for herself that doesn't allow for her to be into the kind of stuff that she's into, so she's in a position where she has to maintain her image on one side and explore the otaku universe in secret at the same time.

She's admittedly kind of a brat, but I mostly think it's a front. "Tsundere" is probably the appropriate term for her personality type, although I've never cared for that term. Anyway, I think her brattiness and obnoxiousness are mostly a defense mechanism, and that makes her an endearing character, imo.

I get why people like Kuroneko, and I don't dislike her, but I do find her kind of generic and boring so far; too much of a typical portrayal of a Japanese girl otaku. Comparatively I prefer Kirino so far; I like her tastes (magical girl and imouto-type stuff) and I can relate somewhat to her predicament. I was never part of the popular crowd, but my friends in high school were mostly delinquent metal-fan types who would have laughed themselves silly had they found out what kind of stuff I was into. I didn't make any otaku friends until college.

Also, anyone who thinks it's abnormal for siblings to behave with outward hostility towards each other never had siblings.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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Old 2013-08-19, 20:46   Link #251
Chiibi
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I used to not like her...(her otaku side kept me from hating her...)but she got a lot better with season 2. Knowing her backstory and everything...it's hard not to pity her.

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Originally Posted by finalfury View Post
Moral of the story, dont make tsundere characters since they are difficult to like.
Speak for yourself-that's only if you make them "all tsun and no DERE" I normally find tsundere characters far more likable because the pay off for being able to soften a tsundere is just so much greater than if the character was always soft to begin with. MALE tsundere especially. I go nuts for them~

Anyway, I'd take a Kugimiya tsundere over Kirino any day...but I no longer dislike Kirino. I did read her character a little off though.
In the beginning I thought:
Spoiler:

Well........that was probably still true...but now I know there's a lot more to it than that....
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Old 2013-08-19, 22:16   Link #252
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I have to say that I strongly prefer tsundere love interests in a love comedy. Idealized girlfriend/boyfriend types tend to be rather flat, uninteresting characters that don't have any passion beyond their love for the main character, except when it serves as a moe point.

Tsundere have strong personalities with strong passions and a fierce pride in what they do. I find it so much easier to love and empathize with a character with deeper and often conflicted motivations and interests. It makes them that much more human.
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Old 2013-08-20, 00:10   Link #253
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I have to say that I strongly prefer tsundere love interests in a love comedy. Idealized girlfriend/boyfriend types tend to be rather flat, uninteresting characters that don't have any passion beyond their love for the main character, except when it serves as a moe point.

Tsundere have strong personalities with strong passions and a fierce pride in what they do. I find it so much easier to love and empathize with a character with deeper and often conflicted motivations and interests. It makes them that much more human.
YES, EXACTLY!!

..........characters without emotional problems are BORING.
The tsundere's pride is one of their best assets-it's so hilarious when they go to pieces trying to defend it and fail miserably.
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Old 2013-08-20, 00:11   Link #254
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In the beginning I thought:
Spoiler:

Well........that was probably still true...but now I know there's a lot more to it than that....
In the end, honestly... there really wasn't all that much more to it than that, it's just that it had some complications along the way -- like the way Kyousuke's personality changed, and Manami's advice to hide her feelings. It pushed the conflict even deeper, because now there's "the brother I loved, but shouldn't" and "the brother I hate, but know is the same person". Over the course of the narrative, these two sides collide, and it becomes "my real brother; how do I feel?" And that's really what Episode 13 of the anime (and most of the second season, honestly) was all about.

I too, though, always read her that way from the get-go... but the added clarifications make her behaviour a bit easier to parse.


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Tsundere have strong personalities with strong passions and a fierce pride in what they do. I find it so much easier to love and empathize with a character with deeper and often conflicted motivations and interests. It makes them that much more human.
Yeah, I'm personally drawn to these characters for similar reasons... but particularly, I love the moment when their conflicted feelings are finally exposed, because it feels like such a release from all the tension. Like the end to some sort of hard-fought internal battle, and finally the waters calm and the world is at peace. This in particular was extremely well presented in this story to me, and is one of the things I most like about it.
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Old 2013-08-20, 01:35   Link #255
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Yeah, I'm personally drawn to these characters for similar reasons... but particularly, I love the moment when their conflicted feelings are finally exposed, because it feels like such a release from all the tension. Like the end to some sort of hard-fought internal battle, and finally the waters calm and the world is at peace. This in particular was extremely well presented in this story to me, and is one of the things I most like about it.
Yes, particularly the confession scene portrays this quite good. With Kirino saying "don't mix up 2D and 3D" and "disgusting" the entire time, only to show her true happiness when Kyousuke proposes, with that "Yes". Kirino when she accepted just looked great and I thought Taketatsu Ayana did that "yes" very well.
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Old 2013-08-20, 02:37   Link #256
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i don't know where i should exactly post this, but have you guys seen this yet? some people just get too desperate. XD

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...-with-kirino-2
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Old 2013-08-20, 02:42   Link #257
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i don't know where i should exactly post this, but have you guys seen this yet? some people just get too desperate. XD

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...-with-kirino-2
Hmm, and what happens to the many scenes involving Kuroneko and Kirino? Does Kuroneko talk to herself there or do they want two Kuroneko's at the same time? But damn, a petition. I just say "don't mix up 2D and 3D!".
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Old 2013-08-20, 02:49   Link #258
Densetsuhakai
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Originally Posted by shironeko8 View Post
i don't know where i should exactly post this, but have you guys seen this yet? some people just get too desperate. XD

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...-with-kirino-2
wtf?! xD
It can't be that some people are taking this serious right? That's just too dumb xD
At least to me it looks more like a joke than like a serious petition.
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Old 2013-08-20, 02:50   Link #259
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Originally Posted by shironeko8 View Post
i don't know where i should exactly post this, but have you guys seen this yet? some people just get too desperate. XD

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...-with-kirino-2
Those people got too much free time ~.~
Seriously, one of the thing I like in Kirino is her confident in everything. Yes, it easily slip into tsuntsun bitchy like they said, but without them, hell, then what is left of her?
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Old 2013-08-20, 02:54   Link #260
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Those people got too much free time ~.~
Seriously, one of the thing I like in Kirino is her confident in everything. Yes, it easily slip into tsuntsun bitchy like they said, but without them, hell, then what is left of her?
A generic female character out of a boring romance novel.
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