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Old 2013-08-25, 00:50   Link #32901
Renall
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People don't get wet when they go out in the rain in this story. I think the narrative accounting for whether anyone should be noticing gunshots is a pretty unlikely occurrence, along with noticing whether someone was shot at close range from their clothes.
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Old 2013-08-25, 02:53   Link #32902
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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
Willard's character was a clear critique of Van Dine, someone who knew and applied the rules but became disillusioned with them. He himself made a self-deprecating acknowledgement that the rules were 'considered' outdated, and didn't care to make any defense against that. The TIPS for SSVD: "Many say that they do not keep up with the times, but they are also highly praised by some for continuing to preserve the basis of the law's spirit to this very day." That's a pretty back-handed endorsement to say that 'some' value these rules without demonstrating any reason what value they have.

Maybe I was unclear in that line, but I only attribute to R07 a critical view of Van Dine -- the specific reasons I detailed are my own, and I didn't intend to put them in R07's mouth.
You realize he has Battler imply the same thing about Knox's rules before reverting his opinion on them in EP5 though, so this hardly means anything. EP8 has Will using them fine with no irony or disillusionment. It's more likely it ties in to Ryukishi's weird, pseudo-Death of the Author point.
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Old 2013-08-25, 06:17   Link #32903
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
People don't get wet when they go out in the rain in this story. I think the narrative accounting for whether anyone should be noticing gunshots is a pretty unlikely occurrence, along with noticing whether someone was shot at close range from their clothes.
I've always hated how Ryukishi disgregard certain things because for readers they're part of what makes a solution believable.
I'll be fine with a certain slack but such total disregard is... well, too much.
Now I'm starting to think Shannon really switched costumes as fast as superman to him because... who cares?

Also in a way the Our confession narrative imply something in how Beato deals with corpses: either she's so coldblooded nothing shock her so digging in a bleeding wound of a corpse is a piece of cake or Yasu's just thinking she'll do it no problem for her narrative. In real life many people are grossed out by things like this to the point they can even feel sick.
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Old 2013-08-25, 09:57   Link #32904
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Now I'm starting to think Shannon really switched costumes as fast as superman to him because... who cares?
Remember that in ep5 there is literally no time-space boundary between the mansion and guesthouse and people can teleport between them without actually requiring any travel time. When you look at it that way, Shannon instantaneously changing clothes doesn't seem like such a big deal.

The grand irony is that if Ryukishi had accounted for clothes getting wet in the rain, Shkanon would actually matter to the solution as Shannon/Kanon changing to the other character after she was outside when she shouldn't have been would have actually been integral to the solution. Go figure, right?
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Old 2013-08-25, 10:21   Link #32905
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You realize he has Battler imply the same thing about Knox's rules before reverting his opinion on them in EP5 though, so this hardly means anything. EP8 has Will using them fine with no irony or disillusionment. It's more likely it ties in to Ryukishi's weird, pseudo-Death of the Author point.
I couldn't help noticing that soon after Battler began applying the commandments as given in Red, he hit upon the Golden Truth. Accepting the Decalogue gave him a foothold for reasoning rather than excuses not to. Meanwhile, Will delivers less than a handful of Van Dine's rules -- the Law of Conservation of Detail was never given in Red, but do you believe there's no reason for that particular selection, no reason the rest were completely dismissed? And in EP8, Will does give a wry admission to Knox's critique of the rules he cites.

I'm not making any unsupported suppositions here. If you have anything of substance regarding a 'Death of the Author' statement, you can demonstrate it to someone who cares, because I can't find that in any way relevant to solving the mysteries.
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Old 2013-08-25, 10:38   Link #32906
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There is still the whole cigarette thing from EP3, that goes against Van Dine's 20th.
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Old 2013-08-25, 11:54   Link #32907
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I'm not making any unsupported suppositions here. If you have anything of substance regarding a 'Death of the Author' statement, you can demonstrate it to someone who cares, because I can't find that in any way relevant to solving the mysteries.
It IS relevant to the claim that Ryukishi is making a critique on Van Dine's rules, however. Don't move the goalposts, that's not arguing in good faith.
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Old 2013-08-25, 12:08   Link #32908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
I'm not making any unsupported suppositions here. If you have anything of substance regarding a 'Death of the Author' statement, you can demonstrate it to someone who cares, because I can't find that in any way relevant to solving the mysteries.
It actually is relevant to writing mystery in general, because the genre in itself and especially Japan post 1970 gets more and more influenced by a fight of a pro and con stance on the Bartherian Death of the Author. There are so many mystery novels in Japan that more or less directly deal with this problem that meta detective fiction as well as anti-mystery have grown into sub-genre of themselves and writing mystery on writing mystery can be found even with the higher ranking authors of the genre. On the other hand in the West the only one who immediately comes to my mind is Paul Auster with City of Glass.
In Japan, starting with the backwards approval of the three (or four) great strange books, a strong trend towards questioning the genre while writing it (especially instigated by a strong split between genre-critical mysteries and socio-critical mysteries) began, which continues until today.
The points these three "strange books" are also cited as THE anti-mystery in Japan.
  1. Dogura Magura
    Dealing with a novel-in-a-novel predicting the events of the plot.
  2. The Murder Case in the Mansion of the Black Death
    Becomes a perfect example of Ocam's Razor and criticizes the act of reading a bigger picture into simple events.
  3. An Offering to Nothingness
    Deals with the complicity of detective and reader in "wishing for a crime to occur".
  4. Comfort Lost within the Box
    Portrays a character creating a novel that mirrors plot-events without ever making clear which half of the chapters is real and which one is the novel.

All things that can be found in Umineko? Yes, and Ryukishi didn't need to be an exceptionally intellectual person to tackle these points, since by now they have become common tropes in a post-mortum stage of the author as the sole creator of one simple creation.

Is Ryukishi well read in the mystery genre? He's at least something that could be considered an avid reader, maybe even mania by Japanese standards, but that much was already clear with Higurashi.
Does he make any new points? Not necessarily, but these points were technically already "old" when they were put together, considering that at least the first 3 pieces mentioned above were written in 1935, '34 and '64 respectively (even preceding Barthe's big proclamation). What he did do is create them in a different kind of medium and create a different kind of author-reader relationship that is missing from a large number of mystery publications today.
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Old 2013-08-25, 14:57   Link #32909
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Now Im no gun expert but here's a sound of one rifle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mbaO7qLzS8. And that's what I imagine when I think rifle fire.
Now I don't know if I clearly understood your point here, but if you are using that video to argue that guns are not loud as hell, your argument is bit on the sloppy side. Even the guy in the video has earplugs. As someone that has served in army, first thing you notice is that you can hear the gunshot from amazing distance away. Of course this has to do with weather conditions etc etc, but the noise exists. Even suppressors don't magically hollywood-style make weapon silent, but reduce muzzle flash and make the origin of the bang harder to locate. You'd still want to use earplugs, the noise is still that loud.

The fact that Ryu explained in OC that "the noise is not so loud" is pretty much the finishing point for this discussion, as the sound is now explained not to be an important factor towards the story, and Yasu has some kind of magic gun.

Pretty much the same explanation why people don't get wet in the rain.

Quote:
Now I'm starting to think Shannon really switched costumes as fast as superman to him because... who cares?
...You guys understand that switching clothes is not pretty hard trick, right? You can do it in matter of seconds, at least with little practice. I don't remember a part where it would have been impossible for Yasu to switch clothes given some time limit. I don't think it even requires superhuman abilities. Maybe Yasu had even multiple layers of clothing, like Kanon's outfit under Shannon's etc etc.

Last edited by Dormin; 2013-08-25 at 15:21.
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Old 2013-08-25, 15:31   Link #32910
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Now I don't know if I clearly understood your point here, but if you are using that video to argue that guns are not loud as hell, your argument is bit on the sloppy side.
Damn, I thought it was clear. My point was that gunfire from a rifle is hella loud and would probably damage your hearing if fired inside a small closed room. Definetly not a "champagne bottle".
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Old 2013-08-25, 19:03   Link #32911
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Originally Posted by Dormin View Post
The fact that Ryu explained in OC that "the noise is not so loud" is pretty much the finishing point for this discussion, as the sound is now explained not to be an important factor towards the story, and Yasu has some kind of magic gun.

Pretty much the same explanation why people don't get wet in the rain.
I'll argue that since those were extra information in extra material the game wasn't fair from a reader point of view as he didn't know he should have discharged those stuffs as unimportant.

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...You guys understand that switching clothes is not pretty hard trick, right? You can do it in matter of seconds, at least with little practice. I don't remember a part where it would have been impossible for Yasu to switch clothes given some time limit. I don't think it even requires superhuman abilities. Maybe Yasu had even multiple layers of clothing, like Kanon's outfit under Shannon's etc etc.
LOL, yes, and there's people that can change really fast but the main problems were 2:
- in Ep 5 to be witnessed by Erika as Shannon and Kanon she would have to change in the time Erika basically moved her gaze to look around if she even looked around the room and made sure everyone was there like the witches said (my solution to that point is that Erika never looked around so she took the 'everyone's here' for a fact and never checked if the guys were all in the room in the moment it was said, too busy let's say, chatting with the cousins)
- For 2/3 years Yasu had to constantly change at the most random moments as she could end up in a situation in which she was supposed to serve tea to Natsuhi while she's looking out of the window to see if Kanon is cleaning the garden... considering Yasu would have to work as Shannon and Kanon and that their working schedule might overlap and Natsuhi check if people work, things will be pretty troublesome often.
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Old 2013-08-25, 19:21   Link #32912
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...You guys understand that switching clothes is not pretty hard trick, right? You can do it in matter of seconds, at least with little practice. I don't remember a part where it would have been impossible for Yasu to switch clothes given some time limit. I don't think it even requires superhuman abilities. Maybe Yasu had even multiple layers of clothing, like Kanon's outfit under Shannon's etc etc.
Well, the logistics of clothes-changing are a bit more complicated than that, especially if wigs or any sort of makeup are involved (and while makeup may not be in place for Shannon, it probably is for "Beatrice"). The main thing is that there'd need to be places to change and multiple outfits as well as an accommodating schedule. All of these things can be created, especially with proper planning, but it's not easy and it's not instant.

In the first two stories there isn't a whole lot of changing going on though, there's just certain points where it gets questionable later. It's one of those "possible, but increasingly less plausible and more obsessive the more you think about the necessary logistics" things, rather than "doesn't actually happen" like instantaneous travel between buildings or not getting wet outside in a typhoon or inaudible rifles.
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Old 2013-08-25, 19:33   Link #32913
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- For 2/3 years Yasu had to constantly change at the most random moments as she could end up in a situation in which she was supposed to serve tea to Natsuhi while she's looking out of the window to see if Kanon is cleaning the garden... considering Yasu would have to work as Shannon and Kanon and that their working schedule might overlap and Natsuhi check if people work, things will be pretty troublesome often.
I think this part could be avoided by Genji regulating the schedule so that either only Shanon or only Kanon is on duty, but never (or at least rarely) both of them at the same time, aside from the family conferences.
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Old 2013-08-25, 20:43   Link #32914
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I think this part could be avoided by Genji regulating the schedule so that either only Shanon or only Kanon is on duty, but never (or at least rarely) both of them at the same time, aside from the family conferences.
If Kanon even existed for all that long, if at all, as an actual figure with meaningful presence in Prime. Depending on the scale to which a game was in play, Kanon only being a servant on that particular weekend is even technically possible. It'd explain some things about the slow evolution of his relationship with Jessica too.

I'm not sure we actually know, as "Did anyone ever look up Kanon's info at the orphanage or contact others who went there after the fact and realize there isn't any such person?" is one of those sticky questions that never seems to get answered.
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Old 2013-08-25, 20:59   Link #32915
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I think this part could be avoided by Genji regulating the schedule so that either only Shanon or only Kanon is on duty, but never (or at least rarely) both of them at the same time, aside from the family conferences.
The problem here is it would require Genji to be Yasu's accomplice and, according to Yasu, she created him one year prior to Kinzo's death when, according to her, Genji had no reasons to humour her into this and it's unlikely she would go and ask him.

Also it's troublesome as Natsuhi also surely check working schedule and might want to have a say on them and because Shannon also went to school, which means when she's at school Kanon can't be on the island... which leave an even smaller amount of time to orchestrate things.

Of course I've my own theory on all this but still... it seems an overcomplicate thing that makes sense only if Yasu knew she would end up needing Kanon for closed room tricks.
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Old 2013-08-25, 21:27   Link #32916
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I think the easiest way to explain it is "Kanon is just a metaphor and is not entity in R-Prime and Yasu just didn't care enough about details about dress-switching to as much as MENTION them in her stories". Of course, that's just me covering for R07

I'm suddenly trying to imagine what would result if Yasu actually completely sucked at writing and resorted to writing shitty fanfiction to let her feelings out ("My Immortal" tier shit). Think about it: self-insert characters, tormented by love, writes multiple stories about her feelings (granted in this case her angst is probably justified but still).

"and thn battler leaned to shannn face nd wispered 'i'll love you 5ever' and they kissed passintley nd then had bbies named beato and kanon"

Because in the grand scheme of things, she wrote emo fanfiction about real life. What if she failed on every level?
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Old 2013-08-25, 21:45   Link #32917
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The problem here is it would require Genji to be Yasu's accomplice and, according to Yasu, she created him one year prior to Kinzo's death when, according to her, Genji had no reasons to humour her into this and it's unlikely she would go and ask him.
I think it's possible that he was created as an imaginary friend then but Yasu only acted him out later on, when she was already the head of the family. He may also only have been "real" at Jessica's school festival.
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Old 2013-08-25, 22:36   Link #32918
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The major issue with guns not being heard, is while it was never indicated that rain payed a part in telling when people went outside, in episode 1 it was certainly noted that people could hear Natsuhi's gun.

If Ryu hadn't tried to convince me that it was as loud as a champagne bottle, I would have said that it was just super loud inside the rooms, but through a shut door down a hallway and down some stairs in a thunderstorm was not that immediately recognizable. On the other hand, for an author who researches like Ryu, it is an odd oversight (but not unprecedented, if he can retcon a door...)

As for the whole "X didn't have motive to murder everyone" arguments, I think they sort of miss the mark a little bit. A lot of the episodes go to pointing out that no-one really had a solid motive to personally go up to each person on the island and murder them face to face (which is quite a statement), but that it was the right setting for something bad to go wrong, and then have everyone die by the bomb. Ep 7 even shows how the bomb can be switched on or off accidentally by someone who doesn't believe Yasu. My opinion is that the message is that no-one has a motive to kill everyone, but they all died anyway. So even though something bad happened, likely a fight between siblings and even probably a direct death or two, there is almost certainly just an element of tragedy involved. Maybe that is why Eva always felt so guilty, maybe she threw the switch herself.


Also, while I am not saying that it didn't happen, I am not sure "Kinzo used a business deal to get his son a wife and then never trusted her (after she "killed" a baby that was important to him)" is evidence that he raped his own daughter...
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Old 2013-08-25, 22:46   Link #32919
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Also, I am quite sure that Ryu pointed out it was a little unfair, but that Kanon and Shannon didn't have to wear their own clothes to act as themselves.


Also also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=257Hw7TsykI

apparently the bolt actions are quieter, and it is ammo dependent. Listening to this (model winchester, real ammunition, skip the long start bit) they aren't THAT loud at all. Then again, that one has a barrel, which helps.
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Old 2013-08-25, 23:54   Link #32920
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Also it's troublesome as Natsuhi also surely check working schedule and might want to have a say on them and because Shannon also went to school, which means when she's at school Kanon can't be on the island... which leave an even smaller amount of time to orchestrate things.
I would also think that Kanon started out, like Beatrice and Shannon (after the real Shannon left), as something like a vent for her emotions that was never really so much acted out in front of people (running around in a bed-sheet at night doesn't really count). Still, it's also important to consider that, by the time Kanon was created, Shannon wasn't attending school anymore. She likely finished junior high school and never attended high school, considering that it isn't mandatory education and the servants were likely never meant to enter high status jobs.

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I think it's possible that he was created as an imaginary friend then but Yasu only acted him out later on, when she was already the head of the family. He may also only have been "real" at Jessica's school festival.
I think that's at least what the goats were implying when they said, there was never any Kanon and he was simply made up by or for Jessica. Her only way of responding is to say that people saw Kanon at the school festival.
I do hope the manga goes a little bit more indepth concerning what lead the goats to believe that (evidence post-tragedy etc.).

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If Ryu hadn't tried to convince me that it was as loud as a champagne bottle, I would have said that it was just super loud inside the rooms, but through a shut door down a hallway and down some stairs in a thunderstorm was not that immediately recognizable. On the other hand, for an author who researches like Ryu, it is an odd oversight (but not unprecedented, if he can retcon a door...)
It really is a rather odd oversight, though I am not completely sure in how far proximity to a gun fired, proximity to target and all such things influence the sound perceived by the one firing it. On the other hand this could also be Ryukishi's way of telling us "Yasu didn't research shit and was actually quite an amateur at constructing mysteries."
This is sadly one of these elements that we just have to swallow, but, on the other hand, even big writers like Queen, Carr, Van Dine, Sayers, Christie and others made fairly stupid mistakes or bend the laws of nature to fit their stories. My favorite remains the man shot in the chest who still manages to climb up a building, leap over roofs, run into his house and prepare a locked room situation.

Quote:
So even though something bad happened, likely a fight between siblings and even probably a direct death or two, there is almost certainly just an element of tragedy involved. Maybe that is why Eva always felt so guilty, maybe she threw the switch herself.
It would definitely tie into the whole anti-mystery field, most novels from this genre basically advocating the notion that it is the detective, the author, and even the reader who actually create the "murder case" from something that is simply a human tragedy.
Heck, in An Offering to Nothingness both the culprit and the detective figure (both from a group of avid mystery readers) basically break the fourth wall and tell the author that it was not only them but the reader as well who wished for a horrible, complicated and yet beautiful murder-case scenario to occur, while actually it all leads to "Nothingness".

Quote:
Also, while I am not saying that it didn't happen, I am not sure "Kinzo used a business deal to get his son a wife and then never trusted her (after she "killed" a baby that was important to him)" is evidence that he raped his own daughter...
I'd say it doesn't say anything about Kinzo beyond the fact that he acted like a great deal of the Japanese (heck, world-wide) upper-class acted from post-war till today. Using business deals and marriage alongside each other was nothing strange and often these went hand in hand.
Sure, Kinzo was a misogynist, but probably a good 80-90% of all men during those days were misogynistic from today's point of view. Just like Anti-Semitism was en vogue in the 19th and early 20th century, Black jokes were celebrated well past the mid of the 20th century and LGBTQ people are still treated more of as stereotype then actual living beings, of course these are questionable if not horrible things from today's point of view, but people also have to be seen in the context of their environment.
Kinzo was raised as a puppet and got a wife added to him like an accessory, his children being more an obligation he had to fulfill. The only actual friends he seemed to have close to him were a rambunctious noble from Taiwan, with whom he apparently didn't shy away from committing stuff that bordered on criminal, and a money-grabbing doctor with questionable work-ethics. I think Kinzo's psychological profile would turn out to be quite messed up from today's perspective...though maybe not if we look at celebrity news..  
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