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Old 2013-08-26, 06:02   Link #32921
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
I think the easiest way to explain it is "Kanon is just a metaphor and is not entity in R-Prime and Yasu just didn't care enough about details about dress-switching to as much as MENTION them in her stories". Of course, that's just me covering for R07

I'm suddenly trying to imagine what would result if Yasu actually completely sucked at writing and resorted to writing shitty fanfiction to let her feelings out ("My Immortal" tier shit). Think about it: self-insert characters, tormented by love, writes multiple stories about her feelings (granted in this case her angst is probably justified but still).

"and thn battler leaned to shannn face nd wispered 'i'll love you 5ever' and they kissed passintley nd then had bbies named beato and kanon"

Because in the grand scheme of things, she wrote emo fanfiction about real life. What if she failed on every level?
LOL, yes, in a way her gameboards can be viewed as fanfic with her as a Mary Sue. All the cousins love Yasu, in her Shannon persona she's the kindest maid ever while in her Kanon persona she's emo but so cool while in her Beatrice persona she got all the power.
And she might have excused her poor writing saying she was trying to make the games look as if Maria wrote them.

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Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
I think it's possible that he was created as an imaginary friend then but Yasu only acted him out later on, when she was already the head of the family. He may also only have been "real" at Jessica's school festival.
Yes, that's part of my theory also. I would say that Kanon was phisically created post Kinzo's death but this would still require to trick Natsuhi and to lead a double life for no reason at all for 2 years. Plus the siblings know Kanon which mean either they're all lying of common agreement (what for? To prank Battler? Considering they're arguing would they get along to prank Battler?).
Also Jessica wouldn't harbour feelings for Kanon if she were to know he's Shannon or she wouldn't try to pair Shannon and George together.

My best theory is that Shannon began to play the role of Kanon after Kinzo's death and with Natsuhi and Krauss' agreement so as to use Kanon as an extra servant who has viewed Kinzo was around when the siblings were around. Also it's possible due to Krauss poor business they couldn't hire more Fukuin children but didn't want to openly show this to the siblings so used 'Kanon' to make it look like they have enough servants.
Note how the servants on Rokkenjima during the siblings' visits are all in with Kinzo's death apart from Gohda who can't be replaced because they need someone to prepare food and how Gohda was hired after Kinzo's death so he can't notice anything different in his behaviour.

I like to think though that Natsuhi left Jessica out of this, so as not to force her to lie or be involved in the crime of hiding Kinzo's death. Jessica though might have her suspicions but since she seems to be pretty protective of her parents she might have not investigated too deep in this.

It'll be interesting if Jessica's feelings for Kanon are all Yasu's fantasy and more than crushing after Kanon she was trying to be his friend and live better.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Also, while I am not saying that it didn't happen, I am not sure "Kinzo used a business deal to get his son a wife and then never trusted her (after she "killed" a baby that was important to him)" is evidence that he raped his own daughter...
Well, he apparently got her pregnant, unless the whole existence of Lion is a story Yasu made up for the gameboard.
After all we can't prove the baby existed. His birth wasn't recordered, Natsuhi's confession to the grave of the husband of the maid supposedly wasn't witnessed, Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo are dead and likely didn't let medical records that could prove that Kinzo's illegittimate child existed (though there can be documents of Nanjo taking care of a baby), for the Fukuin house the baby would be nothing more than another orphan so... it can very well be all in Yasu's mind as someone theorized in the past.

So it can entirely be Kinzo never touched his daughter in Prime and never had a child from her.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I would also think that Kanon started out, like Beatrice and Shannon (after the real Shannon left), as something like a vent for her emotions that was never really so much acted out in front of people (running around in a bed-sheet at night doesn't really count). Still, it's also important to consider that, by the time Kanon was created, Shannon wasn't attending school anymore. She likely finished junior high school and never attended high school, considering that it isn't mandatory education and the servants were likely never meant to enter high status jobs.
Well, it depends on when she physically created Kanon... though didn't Eva said something along the line of how they allowed Shannon to continue school? I thought this meant they allowed her to go to high school not that they allowed her to attend to mandatory school.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think that's at least what the goats were implying when they said, there was never any Kanon and he was simply made up by or for Jessica. Her only way of responding is to say that people saw Kanon at the school festival.
I do hope the manga goes a little bit more indepth concerning what lead the goats to believe that (evidence post-tragedy etc.).
Same here. It seems so far that Dlanor and Will have countered more theories than the one in the novel and I really hope the same will happen in the future.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
This is sadly one of these elements that we just have to swallow, but, on the other hand, even big writers like Queen, Carr, Van Dine, Sayers, Christie and others made fairly stupid mistakes or bend the laws of nature to fit their stories. My favorite remains the man shot in the chest who still manages to climb up a building, leap over roofs, run into his house and prepare a locked room situation.
LOL, that's awesome! To think I was still hooked up with a completely naked Robinson filling his pokets... I must read this book! Can you please tell me the title?

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It would definitely tie into the whole anti-mystery field, most novels from this genre basically advocating the notion that it is the detective, the author, and even the reader who actually create the "murder case" from something that is simply a human tragedy.
Heck, in An Offering to Nothingness both the culprit and the detective figure (both from a group of avid mystery readers) basically break the fourth wall and tell the author that it was not only them but the reader as well who wished for a horrible, complicated and yet beautiful murder-case scenario to occur, while actually it all leads to "Nothingness".
Well, Umineko itself implied part of the Rokkenjima murder case had birth due to the message bottles that were found so even though I think something happened it's likely not what the gameboards lead us to think.
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Old 2013-08-26, 06:55   Link #32922
Drifloon
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I think Kanon works similarly to Beatrice. He's just an imaginary friend at first, but then Yasu decides to rewrite the world so that she can be him, not just talk to him, at which point he is able to manifest to others. And presumably that change is triggered by her learning that she was born male, motivating her to try experimenting with a male persona - and, funnily enough, that's the exact point at which she becomes the head, so she can easily get Genji to pull some strings so that 'Kanon' can start working at the mansion. The motivation to make Kanon manifest in the human world and the access to the "magic" that could make that happen occurred at exactly the same time.

And I do think that people overstate how difficult it would be to pull off. It should be fairly easy for Genji to fix it so that Shannon and Kanon are almost never stationed at the mansion at the same time. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the 1986 family conference is one of if not the only time they're ever stationed together.
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Old 2013-08-26, 07:25   Link #32923
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Well, not the only instance though. Kanon was there in the 1985 family conference with Shannon as well.
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Old 2013-08-26, 08:22   Link #32924
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
I think Kanon works similarly to Beatrice. He's just an imaginary friend at first, but then Yasu decides to rewrite the world so that she can be him, not just talk to him, at which point he is able to manifest to others. And presumably that change is triggered by her learning that she was born male, motivating her to try experimenting with a male persona - and, funnily enough, that's the exact point at which she becomes the head, so she can easily get Genji to pull some strings so that 'Kanon' can start working at the mansion. The motivation to make Kanon manifest in the human world and the access to the "magic" that could make that happen occurred at exactly the same time.

And I do think that people overstate how difficult it would be to pull off. It should be fairly easy for Genji to fix it so that Shannon and Kanon are almost never stationed at the mansion at the same time. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the 1986 family conference is one of if not the only time they're ever stationed together.
I also think Kanon started as a fantasy and only later Yasu began roleplaying him but once Kinzo is dead Genji has even less authority as, unless he's blackmailing Natsuhi and Krauss, he now is under them and can't hide behind the fact 'Kinzo told me so'. Natsuhi is described as one that check everything the servants do, and although she seems to have faith in Genji, I think she considerde her duty to check things.

If a new servant boy was hired, and what's worse a new servant boy who's supposed to be in with the secret of Kinzo being dead as he's made Kinzo's special servant, I think she would like to have a say in all this.

That's why I think Natsuhi (and Krauss) likely knew Shannon was playing a double role otherwise they wouldn't have trusted a stranger to be in with their secret, probably not even if Genji recommended him.

Hiding Kinzo's death is serious business so I think they would be really wary about who can know and who can't (Gohda, for example, likely had no idea Kinzo was dead).
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Old 2013-08-26, 08:24   Link #32925
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, he apparently got her pregnant, unless the whole existence of Lion is a story Yasu made up for the gameboard.

After all we can't prove the baby existed. His birth wasn't recordered, Natsuhi's confession to the grave of the husband of the maid supposedly wasn't witnessed, Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo are dead and likely didn't let medical records that could prove that Kinzo's illegittimate child existed (though there can be documents of Nanjo taking care of a baby), for the Fukuin house the baby would be nothing more than another orphan so... it can very well be all in Yasu's mind as someone theorized in the past.

So it can entirely be Kinzo never touched his daughter in Prime and never had a child from her.
Granted, I rather like the idea of Yasu being some random orphan (although when I suggested it, it was more that the baby actually did die), but there are two points that make this more of an issue than just writing it off as a fabrication:
  • In the guts scene, there's certainly an implication of Kinzo making a move on his daughter.
  • In Battler's game, both Kinzo and Battler refer to Beatrice as the witch's granddaughter like this is totally something they both know for sure. Nobody has any doubts about it.
Granted, you can get out of #1 in several ways (she wasn't actually his daughter, he did make a move but the real baby was killed and replaced by an orphan, etc.), and #2 by claiming that Battler/Tohya/whoever doesn't know any more about the truth of Yasu's lineage than Yasu does, so his claim of certainty is just part of his world. Still, there are some clear stumbling blocks.

That said, it's supported, at least: Kinzo's entire motivation for the epitaph seems to be to find his missing heir who he is quite sure is "Beatrice." He seems crazy enough to recognize anybody who does this as Beatrice whether it's a reliable association or not; granted, he thinks Yasu looks like her, but let's be honest, Yasu can't IRL look anything like Beatrice or everybody would notice including Battler. So more likely than not his thought process boils down to "solved epitaph and is the right age and isn't one of my other kids or grandkids == my long-lost kid." All Genji has to do is nudge somebody toward that, which he does with Yasu. There's nothing to suggest that Yasu had any inherent advantage solely because of blood or anything, since the epitaph is a strictly intellectual thing. In fact, she was at a distinct disadvantage compared to Kinzo's children, in that she didn't know about the Taiwan thing until Genji dropped the hint.

Also if Yasu isn't Lion then that explains the ep7 thing where Shannon and Kanon can't be in the same place but Lion can be in the same place as either of them, though that's pretty weak as a claim given the nature of that board. So one could argue that there was no baby, or the original baby (Lion) died, and that Yasu is a random replacement who happened to be of the right disposition and such to be chosen by Genji to fill the role. It's a devil's proof, it's unfalsifiable based on the information that we know.

On the other hand, she was always given special treatment from the start. Granted, Yasu could just be sort of retroactively trying to justify her own specialness by believing that the reason she had special treatment was because of who she is, and not that she simply got lucky to be about the same age as Jessica. It could also be handwaved away as Genji planning for the long-term to give Kinzo mounting "evidence" that his child has secretly come back. There's also the apparent "confession" from Nanjo and Genji, although again we don't know what was said specifically and whether it was true (not like Nanjo can't be paid to lie). Since we know so little about Genji and even less about his recent motivations, it's impossible to say for sure what he was even trying to do. As people have pointed out, if Yasu is the child, then Genji's actions are reckless and grossly irresponsible, and we have no clear understanding of why he did what he did outside of a vague sense that he was trying to do this for Kinzo's sake. Maybe.

I guess the biggest issue is whether Shannon/Kanon look anything like Kinzo or Beatrice at all. If they looked like Beatrice, surely someone would point out the similarity at some point or Battler would find her face familiar. If they looked like Kinzo, well... seems like that would be hard to hide, given that the family thinks Battler looks like Kinzo did as a young man, so they must know what Kinzo looked like at a younger age. You'd think someone would've caught on. Orphan-Yasu would entirely escape notice because she in fact does not resemble any of the others. But it also isn't impossible for a child not to resemble either of his or her parents.
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Old 2013-08-26, 09:22   Link #32926
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But if Yasu isn't really the baby, then why was she made a servant at such a young age at all? They make a big deal out of how weird and unprecedented that is.
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Old 2013-08-26, 10:09   Link #32927
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But if Yasu isn't really the baby, then why was she made a servant at such a young age at all? They make a big deal out of how weird and unprecedented that is.
That's kind of what I was driving at. It's unusual, but it's not inexplicable:
  • It could be exactly what they said it was, an attempt to give Jessica someone to associate with. It's unusual, but Krauss and Natsuhi are kinder parents than Kinzo was and maybe they want to avoid a Rosa situation where their child grows up in isolation. Yasu is chosen by chance, and later uses it to justify that she is special after all.
  • Genji was running a long game, and needed a servant who would be around for quite a while. Yasu was picked not because of who she is, but who Genji wants people to think she is.
Orphan-Yasu basically can get around the awkwardness of how Nanjo could possibly be competent enough to perform even a botched sex-reassignment surgery as well, and would lend a different color to that entire scene: Discovering that the baby was a boy, she confronts Genji and Nanjo about it, and they insist that she totally was a boy one time, for real, trust us, but Nanjo had to change it because um your injury. It strikes me as the sort of ludicrous lie that someone backed into a corner would make up, but Yasu wouldn't exactly have much reason to doubt it. On the other hand, it's one of those "too ludicrous to be a lie" situations too.

There's no way to know for sure, since we don't know two things: What Genji's actual motivation was in structuring Yasu's life (since we never get into his head), and whether Yasu's body image issues are based on something real or imagined (since we don't know what the "flaw" specifically even is). I think Ryukishi probably intended us not to question it, but it's so stupid it's hard not to. Ultimately, it doesn't matter to Yasu whether it's true or not, as Yasu believes that it is true and acts accordingly. But it might say a lot about Genji and Kinzo if a lot of the backstory Yasu has filled in for herself is imagined.

That said, it seems highly likely there actually was a baby as otherwise everything Natsuhi is feeling guilty about doesn't exist, and that guilt must come from somewhere. As I said, likely and probably intended, but it's odd that he's left enough of a gap to doubt by being so vague. And the existence of a baby doesn't necessarily mean Yasu was the baby. After all, Yasu can never know that.
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Old 2013-08-26, 10:46   Link #32928
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Granted, I rather like the idea of Yasu being some random orphan (although when I suggested it, it was more that the baby actually did die), but there are two points that make this more of an issue than just writing it off as a fabrication:
  • In the guts scene, there's certainly an implication of Kinzo making a move on his daughter.
  • In Battler's game, both Kinzo and Battler refer to Beatrice as the witch's granddaughter like this is totally something they both know for sure. Nobody has any doubts about it.
Granted, you can get out of #1 in several ways (she wasn't actually his daughter, he did make a move but the real baby was killed and replaced by an orphan, etc.), and #2 by claiming that Battler/Tohya/whoever doesn't know any more about the truth of Yasu's lineage than Yasu does, so his claim of certainty is just part of his world. Still, there are some clear stumbling blocks.

That said, it's supported, at least: Kinzo's entire motivation for the epitaph seems to be to find his missing heir who he is quite sure is "Beatrice." He seems crazy enough to recognize anybody who does this as Beatrice whether it's a reliable association or not; granted, he thinks Yasu looks like her, but let's be honest, Yasu can't IRL look anything like Beatrice or everybody would notice including Battler. So more likely than not his thought process boils down to "solved epitaph and is the right age and isn't one of my other kids or grandkids == my long-lost kid." All Genji has to do is nudge somebody toward that, which he does with Yasu. There's nothing to suggest that Yasu had any inherent advantage solely because of blood or anything, since the epitaph is a strictly intellectual thing. In fact, she was at a distinct disadvantage compared to Kinzo's children, in that she didn't know about the Taiwan thing until Genji dropped the hint.

Also if Yasu isn't Lion then that explains the ep7 thing where Shannon and Kanon can't be in the same place but Lion can be in the same place as either of them, though that's pretty weak as a claim given the nature of that board. So one could argue that there was no baby, or the original baby (Lion) died, and that Yasu is a random replacement who happened to be of the right disposition and such to be chosen by Genji to fill the role. It's a devil's proof, it's unfalsifiable based on the information that we know.

On the other hand, she was always given special treatment from the start. Granted, Yasu could just be sort of retroactively trying to justify her own specialness by believing that the reason she had special treatment was because of who she is, and not that she simply got lucky to be about the same age as Jessica. It could also be handwaved away as Genji planning for the long-term to give Kinzo mounting "evidence" that his child has secretly come back. There's also the apparent "confession" from Nanjo and Genji, although again we don't know what was said specifically and whether it was true (not like Nanjo can't be paid to lie). Since we know so little about Genji and even less about his recent motivations, it's impossible to say for sure what he was even trying to do. As people have pointed out, if Yasu is the child, then Genji's actions are reckless and grossly irresponsible, and we have no clear understanding of why he did what he did outside of a vague sense that he was trying to do this for Kinzo's sake. Maybe.

I guess the biggest issue is whether Shannon/Kanon look anything like Kinzo or Beatrice at all. If they looked like Beatrice, surely someone would point out the similarity at some point or Battler would find her face familiar. If they looked like Kinzo, well... seems like that would be hard to hide, given that the family thinks Battler looks like Kinzo did as a young man, so they must know what Kinzo looked like at a younger age. You'd think someone would've caught on. Orphan-Yasu would entirely escape notice because she in fact does not resemble any of the others. But it also isn't impossible for a child not to resemble either of his or her parents.
If we've to go through this tangent we can say the gut scene didn't necessary prove Kinzo slept with Beato, just that he declared his feelings toward her and she refused. Kinzo was insistent, Beato was unconfortable, she complained with Kumasawa and then Beato escaped with Rosa. And died.

It's also possible to assume that Beato was Beatrice's daughter but Beatrice could have conceived her with an Italian officer, which would explain why, to Kinzo, she looks so much like her mother. Since often foreigns look all the same if Beatrice resembles her mother and doesn't have Japanese features she can look completely like her mother to Kinzo after so many years he's also not seeing the original Beatrice.

Kinzo might be unaware she's not his daughter or might know but decided to pretend he doesn't as he doesn't like the idea the first Beato might have loved another man and raised second Beato as his daughter.

However, when he fall for her, he might have decided that, since she wasn't really his daughter, it was okay to court her. Not that it matters for Beato since, regardless of Kinzo telling her the truth or not, she views him like a father figure and not like a lover.

As for Yasu resembling Beato... she was dressed up like her, was wearing a wig and make up. And Kinzo was old, probably sick, with not so much time to live. It was night and we don't know how well the place was lighted but, more important, Kinzo wanted to believe she was Beatrice.
Maybe even if Genji had dressed up like Beato he would have believed him to be Beatrice.
After all if we compare Yasu's behavious in that scene it doesn't seem to match with Beato 1 at all and it doesn't match well with Beato 2 either.

The real problem is the red that comes after.

Quote:
"Why...?!! Why did you save me?! Why didn't you let me die?! Because of that terrible injury, ......I've been forced to live in a body like this!! I never wanted to live in a body like this!! This body that isn't even capable of love......!! What's...what's the point in living like that?! This isn't a human's life...!! It's like being furniture!!"
"That's right, I'm...furniture...!! Furniture...!! Why......why didn't you let me die back then?!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh......!!!"
Of course Yasu's world might not necessarily mean what they seem. The injury she speak about can be something she received not by the fall from a cliff but by... something else. and the fact that they saved her might also refer to something different (ex: she tried to commit suicide due to her condition but they saved her).

Or it can be a truth of the gameboard and therefore not be related to Prime.

Still, it's the hardest point to wave away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
But if Yasu isn't really the baby, then why was she made a servant at such a young age at all? They make a big deal out of how weird and unprecedented that is.
Well, it can be that Natsuhi was right and Kinzo wanted to give a playmate to Jessica. LOL, it can even be that Yasu was Genji's secret baby or the baby of someone he knew and wanted to help so he asked Kinzo to hire Yasu.

Honestly I would have preferred if Yasu wasn't Kinzo's child considering she ends up being forced to work as a maid at such a young age in the house in which she was supposed to become the head.
Instead, if she wasn't Lion, I could accept more easily how Genji thought it was okay to have her working as a maid for the Ushiromiya.

Also, if she really somewhat resemble Beatrice, she's defined a girl and work as maid for the Ushiromiya, it's way more easy for Kinzo to persuade himself she's Beato reincarnated and make a move on her and in her condition it would be even harder for her to refuse him. Considering he said he hid her because he feared this... hiring her it's like if he handed her to Kinzo on a silver platter.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
[*]Genji was running a long game, and needed a servant who would be around for quite a while. Yasu was picked not because of who she is, but who Genji wants people to think she is.[/list]Orphan-Yasu basically can get around the awkwardness of how Nanjo could possibly be competent enough to perform even a botched sex-reassignment surgery as well, and would lend a different color to that entire scene: Discovering that the baby was a boy, she confronts Genji and Nanjo about it, and they insist that she totally was a boy one time, for real, trust us, but Nanjo had to change it because um your injury. It strikes me as the sort of ludicrous lie that someone backed into a corner would make up, but Yasu wouldn't exactly have much reason to doubt it. On the other hand, it's one of those "too ludicrous to be a lie" situations too.
THIS. I also found rather hard to believe how Nanjo could perform such operation. Of course Nanjo could have kept Lion alive then handed her/him to another bribed doctor who performed the operation then they send her to Fukuin.
Still this would require to have another doctor involved in a sex reassignment surgery... it'll be interesting if the manga were to show us there's such a person.

Still... why to lie to Yasu as Kinzo dies short after? If Yasu were to claim to be Lion Natsuhi and the other siblings would, for sure, check if she really is who she claims to be or not. Unless Genji plans to blackmail Natsuhi, who knows the baby was a male, into silence due to her guilt?

LOL, Will wouldn't be happy with me but evilmastermind Genji is a fun theory!

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That said, it seems highly likely there actually was a baby as otherwise everything Natsuhi is feeling guilty about doesn't exist, and that guilt must come from somewhere. As I said, likely and probably intended, but it's odd that he's left enough of a gap to doubt by being so vague. And the existence of a baby doesn't necessarily mean Yasu was the baby. After all, Yasu can never know that.
Well, we can't actually prove Natsuhi was feeling guilty out of the gameboard or that she was feeling guilty due to the baby. She might have argued with the servant and pushed her off the cliff and in the whole story there was no baby, just Natsuhi killing a person.
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Old 2013-08-26, 11:11   Link #32929
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The real problem is the red that comes after.
Dramatic red, and also a lot of it is descriptive, predictive, or opinion. I am sure Yasu believed all of that, and sees herself as having some injury. Doesn't prove it's true. Yasu can't know it's true. The only people she has to get information from are Genji and Nanjo, who are known liars, and Kumasawa, who we aren't sure enough about to say how much she could have or would have known and told her.
Quote:
Also, if she really somewhat resemble Beatrice, she's defined a girl and work as maid for the Ushiromiya, it's way more easy for Kinzo to persuade himself she's Beato reincarnated and make a move on her and in her condition it would be even harder for her to refuse him. Considering he said he hid her because he feared this... hiring her it's like if he handed her to Kinzo on a silver platter.
This is an issue with Genji regardless of who Yasu really is, since at the very least he's trying to present her as such and at best she actually is Kinzo's child. In which case... dude. Just... what the hell are you doing, man?
Quote:
Still... why to lie to Yasu as Kinzo dies short after? If Yasu were to claim to be Lion Natsuhi and the other siblings would, for sure, check if she really is who she claims to be or not. Unless Genji plans to blackmail Natsuhi, who knows the baby was a male, into silence due to her guilt?
The problem is, how do you prove anything about who Yasu is regardless? It's the 80s and Kinzo is dead (and soon Yasu is also probably dead), so it's not like you could take a paternity test. As far as the world is concerned, Beatrice Castiglioni died in 1945 lost at sea and any child she may have had never legally existed at all. Do Yasu's orphanage records indicate she ever had any parents? There's lots of reasons why they might not (sometimes it just isn't known), and also lots of reasons why they might (Genji fudged the records to make up fake dead parents).

Ultimately if Yasu were to claim it's true, there's basically no evidence for it and thus nothing to find, and any evidence that does exist has been under Genji's control and could therefore have been doctored. There's basically no way for Yasu to prove anything if the adults choose not to accept her claim, but there's also no easy way for the adults to dismiss her claim, especially since Rosa knows for a fact that a woman did live on the island in the 60s.

The only sure test would be a genetic one, which should turn up... interesting results if Kinzo was both her father and grandfather. As well as interesting information about Yasu's biological sex. But good luck getting a sample from an asploded person.
Quote:
Well, we can't actually prove Natsuhi was feeling guilty out of the gameboard or that she was feeling guilty due to the baby. She might have argued with the servant and pushed her off the cliff and in the whole story there was no baby, just Natsuhi killing a person.
Why would the servant have been there though? The implication in all of Natsuhi's confessions to that effect are that she had basically nothing against the servant whatsoever, which made it even worse for her as she was basically murdering an innocent infant and a total bystander, neither of whom bore any blame for her own inability to accept the situation. If they'd had a fight, Natsuhi could try to blame someone else. She's in a situation where she cannot blame anyone, which is why it hurts her so much.
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Old 2013-08-26, 11:19   Link #32930
Drifloon
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Originally Posted by Renall
It could be exactly what they said it was, an attempt to give Jessica someone to associate with. It's unusual, but Krauss and Natsuhi are kinder parents than Kinzo was and maybe they want to avoid a Rosa situation where their child grows up in isolation. Yasu is chosen by chance, and later uses it to justify that she is special after all.
Actually, no one said it was for Jessica's sake. That was just the other servants' speculation. Yasu specifically mentions that Natsuhi forbade her from getting too close to Jessica, actually.

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Orphan-Yasu basically can get around the awkwardness of how Nanjo could possibly be competent enough to perform even a botched sex-reassignment surgery as well, and would lend a different color to that entire scene: Discovering that the baby was a boy, she confronts Genji and Nanjo about it, and they insist that she totally was a boy one time, for real, trust us, but Nanjo had to change it because um your injury. It strikes me as the sort of ludicrous lie that someone backed into a corner would make up, but Yasu wouldn't exactly have much reason to doubt it. On the other hand, it's one of those "too ludicrous to be a lie" situations too.
But how would she have discovered that? Surely Gensawajo are the only people who would be in a position to tell her, so if they don't want her to know, she shouldn't ever get the knowledge. The only other person who knows about it should be Natsuhi, and it's hard to imagine that she would say anything about it, considering that it was a huge secret and she didn't seem to like either Shannon or Kanon that much.

Also, this doesn't seem to be a full-on sex change operation we're talking about here. Actually, I imagine it probably basically just amounted to a castration, done out of necessity because of the irreparable genital damage. I'm pretty sure that there are actual cases of boys being accidentally castrated at a young age and subsequently raised as girls.

You are both right that Genji's plan is pretty screwed up and nonsensical regardless, though. But it's not like Yasu not really being the baby makes that any less the case, so by Occam's Razor it seems better to just assume that she is.
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Old 2013-08-26, 11:37   Link #32931
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But how would she have discovered that? Surely Gensawajo are the only people who would be in a position to tell her, so if they don't want her to know, she shouldn't ever get the knowledge. The only other person who knows about it should be Natsuhi, and it's hard to imagine that she would say anything about it, considering that it was a huge secret and she didn't seem to like either Shannon or Kanon that much.
Shannon was pretty close to Natsuhi (in some semblance or fashion, at least), enough that Natsuhi told her some things she never told anybody else. And if Natsuhi's diaries exist as ep5 suggests they do, who's to say Yasu didn't take advantage of her closeness to Natsuhi to read them at some point? I mean she probably didn't get permission, but it wouldn't have been unusual for her to be in Natsuhi's room and we know she at least has enough access to hide stuff all over the place per ep5.

A better question is why, even if we assume everything is true, anyone ever told her in the first place? Like try to envision for yourself a scenario in which Genji or Nanjo feel compelled to even bring this up. Why? Why would you do that? It only seems rational in response to Yasu confronting them about something, be it her perception of her own body or some knowledge she's learned from Natsuhi or Kumasawa or somebody which calls into question what Genji and Nanjo are up to. At that point why would you give that particular story? If they're telling the truth that's unbelievably cold, and if they're making up a lie it's an absurd one. "You were born like that" isn't good enough for them?

If she was just like "Hey, something about my body doesn't seem normal, do you know why?" I can think of plenty of nicer lies that will get her to stop asking than "Yeah you were originally Kinzo's male son with his own daughter but Natsuhi pushed you off a cliff and Nanjo had to castrate you because of the injury and then we introduced you to an orphanage as a girl and brought you back here to work for a decade in and around the environment where your rapist dad lives. Our bad."
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Also, this doesn't seem to be a full-on sex change operation we're talking about here. Actually, I imagine it probably basically just amounted to a castration, done out of necessity because of the irreparable genital damage. I'm pretty sure that there are actual cases of boys being accidentally castrated at a young age and subsequently raised as girls.
I'm not sure I trust Nanjo to even know what constitutes irreparable genital damage, let alone do anything whatsoever involving a scalpel and a small child. Genji must've seriously been off his meds to permit that.
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You are both right that Genji's plan is pretty screwed up and nonsensical regardless, though. But it's not like Yasu not really being the baby makes that any less the case, so by Occam's Razor it seems better to just assume that she is.
"We can't know something that might be false is true, so we should just assume it's true" is fairly poor logic. It makes sense from a writer standpoint (especially considering the writer) and I think it's probably something he didn't intend for us to doubt, but if he wanted to eliminate this possibility he shouldn't have left so many obvious holes in Yasu's own self-knowledge or provided better insight into what Genji was thinking.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2013-08-26, 11:50   Link #32932
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A better question is why, even if we assume everything is true, anyone ever told her in the first place? Like try to envision for yourself a scenario in which Genji or Nanjo feel compelled to even bring this up. Why? Why would you do that? It only seems rational in response to Yasu confronting them about something, be it her perception of her own body or some knowledge she's learned from Natsuhi or Kumasawa or somebody which calls into question what Genji and Nanjo are up to. At that point why would you give that particular story? If they're telling the truth that's unbelievably cold, and if they're making up a lie it's an absurd one. "You were born like that" isn't good enough for them?

If she was just like "Hey, something about my body doesn't seem normal, do you know why?" I can think of plenty of nicer lies that will get her to stop asking than "Yeah you were originally Kinzo's male son with his own daughter but Natsuhi pushed you off a cliff and Nanjo had to castrate you because of the injury and then we introduced you to an orphanage as a girl and brought you back here to work for a decade in and around the environment where your rapist dad lives. Our bad."
Last I checked Genji doesn't lie. He's a master of dancing around the truth tho. But if this is after Kinzo's death, Yasu is the new master and confronts Genji about everything, would he lie or avoid?
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Old 2013-08-26, 11:54   Link #32933
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Dramatic red, and also a lot of it is descriptive, predictive, or opinion. I am sure Yasu believed all of that, and sees herself as having some injury.
Personally I would consider that red as implying the facts Yasu is mentioning are true. She was rescued, she had an injury and she has a body that, according to her, is unable to love. What I think it's more up to a debate was what she really means with 'rescue', 'injury' and 'body unable to love'.
Of course it's also possible to consider that red as 'Yasu really said so'.
Or, even more easy, on Beatrice's gameboard that's true, in Prime it's just Yasu being deceived by Genji.

LOL, it's rather amusing how 'untrustworthy' can be red for being 'simply the truth'. Without context a truth really doesn't mean much.

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This is an issue with Genji regardless of who Yasu really is, since at the very least he's trying to present her as such and at best she actually is Kinzo's child. In which case... dude. Just... what the hell are you doing, man?
I swear I don't get Genji's heart. My 2 best explanations are he's either stupid or he's lying as Yasu isn't Lion.
As for the motive of this lie we have:
- he wanted to please Kinzo
- he aimed to use Yasu to control Kinzo's fortune

... though ultimately he doesn't do it officially... he's using Kinzo's money as Yasu can put it into bank accounts so... was he maybe taking much more of it and, where he to be discovered he would use Lion/Yasu as excuse?
Or maybe Kinzo's suddent death was a problem for his plan because Kinzo didn't manage to write a document officializing Yasu's position as heir so he gave up on controlling Kinzo's fortune but, by then, Yasu was persuaded she was Lion?

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The problem is, how do you prove anything about who Yasu is regardless? It's the 80s and Kinzo is dead (and soon Yasu is also probably dead), so it's not like you could take a paternity test. As far as the world is concerned, Beatrice Castiglioni died in 1945 lost at sea and any child she may have had never legally existed at all. Do Yasu's orphanage records indicate she ever had any parents? There's lots of reasons why they might not (sometimes it just isn't known), and also lots of reasons why they might (Genji fudged the records to make up fake dead parents).
I wonder if had Genji managed to have Kinzo acknowledge Yasu as Lion, this would have been enough to have Yasu inherit something. Sure thing he could try and get both Rosa and Natsuhi (+ Krauss) disowned talling Kinzo their roles in Beatrice's death and Lion's incident. This would let only Eva and Rudolf and maybe he can find something against Rudolf as well. No idea what he can find against Eva though.

Though I don't really know how law in Japan work and if Kinzo can kick out of the family his legittimate children and acknowledge as heir Yasu. And, after all Genji might not know as well and think it'll work. Surely Kinzo seemed to think he could make Lion his heir if he were to find him... though Kinzo might think so because he believed no one would argue with his decisions and not because his decisions are supported by law.

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Why would the servant have been there though? The implication in all of Natsuhi's confessions to that effect are that she had basically nothing against the servant whatsoever, which made it even worse for her as she was basically murdering an innocent infant and a total bystander, neither of whom bore any blame for her own inability to accept the situation. If they'd had a fight, Natsuhi could try to blame someone else. She's in a situation where she cannot blame anyone, which is why it hurts her so much.
Actually I never got why the servant was following her around in the first place. It's not like Natsuhi needed to be close to the baby because she might have to give him milk.
If Natsuhi wanted to be alone all she had to do was to say she wanted to go for a walk alone, if the servant suggested to come with the baby all she had to say was it would be better to make the baby rest indoor.

But that's secondary.

All we can prove is that a servant died on Rokkenjima. We can't really prove how. I wonder if the police investigated about it because if she didn't we can't even prove where. We've just Genji's word. Probably it's possible to prove Rosa was on a schooltrip and Krauss was out working without Natsuhi so likely Natsuhi was on the island.
It seems no other maid apart from Kumasawa and the one she died saw the baby so it can be the maid really was victim of an unfortunate incident, like Genji said to the husband.

We can't prove if Natsuhi felt guilty for her death or if she was with her but there are other ways for her to feel guilty for her death that doesn't include her pushing the maid off the cliff. Maybe Natsuhi knew that place wasn't really safe but she forgot and sent the maid there... or she didn't warn everyone that place wasn't safe so when the maid went there she met her death.

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Actually, no one said it was for Jessica's sake. That was just the other servants' speculation. Yasu specifically mentions that Natsuhi forbade her from getting too close to Jessica, actually.
It was Natsuhi's speculation. Of course if Kinzo wants something Natsuhi'0s opinion in his books amount to very little.


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But how would she have discovered that? Surely Gensawajo are the only people who would be in a position to tell her, so if they don't want her to know, she shouldn't ever get the knowledge. The only other person who knows about it should be Natsuhi, and it's hard to imagine that she would say anything about it, considering that it was a huge secret and she didn't seem to like either Shannon or Kanon that much.
In Ep 7 Shannon suggests to Yasu she might have been hired so young because she's the master's secret baby as other servants say. If Yasu wanted to believe in this in hope she finally had parents she might have interpreted facts in a way that would confirm this. If Genji really wanted to use her he might have used her belief to take advantage of her but when Kinzo died all his plans went out of the wind and not only Yasu couldn't be persuaded she'd been tricked but probably Genji didn't want to let her know it as she could tattle to Natsuhi he was trying to use her to get Kinzo's money.

Ergo Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo make up an unbelievable story that feed further Yasu's fantasy.


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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Also, this doesn't seem to be a full-on sex change operation we're talking about here. Actually, I imagine it probably basically just amounted to a castration, done out of necessity because of the irreparable genital damage. I'm pretty sure that there are actual cases of boys being accidentally castrated at a young age and subsequently raised as girls.
I really don't know much about this sort of things so I won't go into this.
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Old 2013-08-26, 11:59   Link #32934
GreyZone
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Why are all thinking so lowly of Nanjo's skills as a doctor? Was there anything that suggests that he is an incompetent doctor? Or is it just an assumption?
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Old 2013-08-26, 12:09   Link #32935
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Why are all thinking so lowly of Nanjo's skills as a doctor? Was there anything that suggests that he is an incompetent doctor? Or is it just an assumption?
Well, surely Nanjo isn't presented like the sort of doctor that's an expert in this sort of things. He seems more like a generical doctor. Also either he couldn't recognize a corpse to save his life despite seeing more than 1 or he's willing to aid a murderer.

So really, maybe Nanjo is the best doctor ever but Umineko doesn't present him as such a great doctor... and I would think a sex-changing operation on an infant, or even just its castration, isn't exactly that easy he could do it with no problems. Though maybe it's a lot easier than I think.

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Last I checked Genji doesn't lie. He's a master of dancing around the truth tho. But if this is after Kinzo's death, Yasu is the new master and confronts Genji about everything, would he lie or avoid?
Genji lied more than once through all Umineko. We don't know if he lied to Kinzo but we know he pranked him which could involve mild lying. Sure thing is he has obligations to Kinzo because Kinzo sort of saved him. It's up to debate if he felt compelled to obey to Lion in the same way as well.
He might think he had repaid his obligations to Kinzo by serving him and to Lion by sparing him a destiny like his mother.
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Old 2013-08-26, 12:17   Link #32936
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If Yasu and Lion had the same chromosomal disorder, due to inbreeding, that may not have been easy for a family physician to diagnose in the mid-80's. This is more plausible than injury, since any damage to that area would shatter the pelvis more certainly than the genitals. Hir walking pace would be noticeably hobbled if hir junk was wrecked by blunt force trauma.
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Old 2013-08-26, 12:32   Link #32937
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If Yasu and Lion had the same chromosomal disorder, due to inbreeding, that may not have been easy for a family physician to diagnose in the mid-80's. This is more plausible than injury, since any damage to that area would shatter the pelvis more certainly than the genitals. Hir walking pace would be noticeably hobbled if hir junk was wrecked by blunt force trauma.
In the manga Lion is represented as considerably taller than Beatrice and therefore Shannon or Kanon, though shorter than Battler or Will or George. So apparently something hampered Kanon's grown but not Lion's. Though of course, since Lion is a fictional character and we don't even know if he was really blond or it was all a fantasy manga Lion can look as whoever writing EP 7 & 8 gameboards prefers...
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Old 2013-08-26, 12:51   Link #32938
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In the manga Lion is represented as considerably taller than Beatrice and therefore Shannon or Kanon, though shorter than Battler or Will or George. So apparently something hampered Kanon's grown but not Lion's.
Like falling off a cliff as a baby?
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Old 2013-08-26, 12:56   Link #32939
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In the manga Lion is represented as considerably taller than Beatrice and therefore Shannon or Kanon, though shorter than Battler or Will or George. So apparently something hampered Kanon's grown but not Lion's. Though of course, since Lion is a fictional character and we don't even know if he was really blond or it was all a fantasy manga Lion can look as whoever writing EP 7 & 8 gameboards prefers...
Developmental differences would explain differences in physique; Lion was raised and fed by an affluent family, and groomed to inherit leadership of it. Attitude also reflects in posture which further contributes to both growth and others' perception of height. Kanon in particular looks like he's holding a meeker, lower profile posture, probably to give off an impression of shorter height and younger age than Shannon.

Treachery of Images is such a prevalent theme in this story that I can't tell if the differences really appear this drastic to anyone within the setting, or if that's just for the sake of distinguishing the characters for the audience.
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Old 2013-08-26, 13:03   Link #32940
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Why are all thinking so lowly of Nanjo's skills as a doctor? Was there anything that suggests that he is an incompetent doctor? Or is it just an assumption?
He let a woman die in childbirth in the 1940s. If he really did operate on the baby in some manner he truly fucked up. He's lying, constantly, about everything. Basically he's never once shown any actual competence. Also, his son seems to just sort of instinctively guess his dad was up to his neck in something bad when he decides not to touch the money in the box. If he has that kind of attitude, what could he possibly think about his father in general? I got the impression he was a bit embarrassed by the guy.
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I swear I don't get Genji's heart. My 2 best explanations are he's either stupid or he's lying as Yasu isn't Lion.
As for the motive of this lie we have:
- he wanted to please Kinzo
- he aimed to use Yasu to control Kinzo's fortune

... though ultimately he doesn't do it officially... he's using Kinzo's money as Yasu can put it into bank accounts so... was he maybe taking much more of it and, where he to be discovered he would use Lion/Yasu as excuse?
...
I wonder if had Genji managed to have Kinzo acknowledge Yasu as Lion, this would have been enough to have Yasu inherit something. Sure thing he could try and get both Rosa and Natsuhi (+ Krauss) disowned talling Kinzo their roles in Beatrice's death and Lion's incident. This would let only Eva and Rudolf and maybe he can find something against Rudolf as well. No idea what he can find against Eva though.

Though I don't really know how law in Japan work and if Kinzo can kick out of the family his legittimate children and acknowledge as heir Yasu. And, after all Genji might not know as well and think it'll work. Surely Kinzo seemed to think he could make Lion his heir if he were to find him... though Kinzo might think so because he believed no one would argue with his decisions and not because his decisions are supported by law.
Kinzo can write a will and leave anything to anybody he wants. It doesn't have to be a family member and he's within his rights to relinquish nothing to them under most law. However, his children are certain to challenge such a will in court as fraudulent or made under duress or insanity. In the event a will were to be thrown out and no other existed, it'd probably be split among his children equally (although if Yasu can prove herself to actually be one of Kinzo's kids, she's entitled to 1/5 of that money as surviving family anyway). The gold, of course, is uninheritable because Kinzo doesn't legally own it.
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In Ep 7 Shannon suggests to Yasu she might have been hired so young because she's the master's secret baby as other servants say. If Yasu wanted to believe in this in hope she finally had parents she might have interpreted facts in a way that would confirm this. If Genji really wanted to use her he might have used her belief to take advantage of her but when Kinzo died all his plans went out of the wind and not only Yasu couldn't be persuaded she'd been tricked but probably Genji didn't want to let her know it as she could tattle to Natsuhi he was trying to use her to get Kinzo's money.

Ergo Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo make up an unbelievable story that feed further Yasu's fantasy.
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Last I checked Genji doesn't lie. He's a master of dancing around the truth tho. But if this is after Kinzo's death, Yasu is the new master and confronts Genji about everything, would he lie or avoid?
The question, you see, is at the heart of what I'm asking: Who is the manipulator and who is the pawn? This ties into the question of why Genji just seems to obey everything he's asked to do. Seems being the key here; is he? This is a guy who has a demon inside him and can throw knives at magical butterflies.

Genji is a big fat Later Queen Problem staring everybody in the face, and it's probably one of the more Anti-Mystery aspects of the solution as presented. As long as we don't know his heart, his head, it's hard to know if everything we've been presented is even true. All the things Yasu knows about herself, all the things she relies upon, are fundamentally controlled by a gatekeeper who has chosen to present a particular story as the truth, to no apparent gain to himself. Now we can say "well, he really is just that loyal," but we can't know that, especially after Kinzo dies. Hell, we don't even know how many things Genji does are his idea or not. He can and does justify everything as the "Master's wishes," but he's always evasive on which master he's talking about and we never see those orders being conveyed.

Is Yasu the new master, the hidden heir, manipulating matters from behind the scenes? Or is she a dumb kid with a fanciful imagination who has jumped to a series of wild conclusions about her life and played right into somebody else's hands? Who filled in the gaps in all of these disparate facts about a submarine base and a girl living on the island in the 1960s? Who knows everything? Who can confirm everything? Yasu can't, but there's one man who can... but did he? We have no idea, and no way of knowing.

It's hard to accept robot-Genji and the submarine story and the three generations of Beatrice and all of that knowing that it's a tainted informational line that only a tiny number of people actually knew (half of them dead). And Yasu may not be as clever as she thinks she is... or at least Genji might not think she's as clever as she thinks she is. Thought about this way, we suddenly have a very different Yasu Culprit angle that might, perhaps, be more justifiable... or maybe nothing of the sort was going on at all and all of this speculation is nonsense cooked up by Witch Hunters to try to explain a silly game gone wrong.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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