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Old 2013-08-27, 07:26   Link #4161
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagger View Post
There's something to be said for releasing different types of games under different brands/labels.
Afaik some Japanese eroge companies did this already, so at least not entirely without precedence.
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Old 2013-08-27, 15:50   Link #4162
KanbeKotori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
A lot of this was actually based on slightly-twisted information. Kiss scenes were even featured prominently in the promo material for the game. The issue was that one of the kiss scenes had a "cut-in" that had a close-up of the french kiss with saliva strands (etc.), and they removed the "cut-ins" (along with the extended kissing "dialogue" that matched) in favour of just leaving the kiss itself. Obviously, it's still an editorial change and some will object on principle, but it's one that is consistent with the tone of the revised work, and isn't intended to make the game less romantic, just a bit less explicit.

I think one of the problems is that these sort of rumours started going around, and there wasn't a lot of fact-checking so that people could decide the veracity of the claim, and MoeNovel's PR wasn't adept enough to fight back (or they decided to not try). Most of their efforts instead focused on trying to get the game out there for people who would give it a try and get positive press that way. Perhaps they considered the core English eroge market a bit of a lost cause.
Nah, what I find is they tried to turn an eroge into a normal VN, which is already known to be impossible. If it were possible, those parent companies wouldn't have to come out with an all age version(notable examples are Little Busters and Kud Wafter). Removing the ehem scenes doesn't make it an all age version. You're basically cutting out a chunk of the story itself and suddenly you find that the depth of the story becomes a bit shallow. It just doesn't work out that way.
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Old 2013-08-27, 16:39   Link #4163
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
Nah, what I find is they tried to turn an eroge into a normal VN, which is already known to be impossible.
Several ports to handhelds and consoles did a fairly good job making some eroges "all ages". You don't always need H-scenes to progress the story of some eroges


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
If it were possible, those parent companies wouldn't have to come out with an all age version(notable examples are Little Busters and Kud Wafter).
.... Little Busters actually started out as an "All ages" game


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post

Removing the ehem scenes doesn't make it an all age version. You're basically cutting out a chunk of the story itself and suddenly you find that the depth of the story becomes a bit shallow. It just doesn't work out that way.
While some can't be removed because those are essential to the plot (in some way), in some occasions you can replace it with something similar or change it to an implicit scene
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Old 2013-08-28, 04:51   Link #4164
KanbeKotori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Several ports to handhelds and consoles did a fairly good job making some eroges "all ages". You don't always need H-scenes to progress the story of some eroges

True but those only apply to those eroge that allow you the options to hide the scenes if you want.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
.... Little Busters actually started out as an "All ages" game
My bad then. Okay, so Kud Wafter only I guess for now(those that I've read before).

EDIT: The EX part for LB was initially an eroge, then they created an all age version for EX titled ME.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
While some can't be removed because those are essential to the plot (in some way), in some occasions you can replace it with something similar or change it to an implicit scene
Not necessarily so. It'll still affect the plot someway or another.
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Last edited by KanbeKotori; 2013-08-28 at 05:10.
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Old 2013-08-28, 06:34   Link #4165
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
True but those only apply to those eroge that allow you the options to hide the scenes if you want.
I was talking about ports that came out to ps2/psp/ps3 or xbox360. Those are not based of eroges with the option of hiding H-scenes (i haven't even played any games that gives me such an option, but that would be my experience)
Like the ones that i have read that worked without H-scenes: Akaneiro ni Somaru Saka, Mashiroiro Symphony, Gift, Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate, Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru 2.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
Not necessarily so. It'll still affect the plot someway or another.
Then you can still "change" the H-scene into an implied one instead of an explicit one. Like in the psp ports of Mashiroiro Symphony or Koichoco

edit: made this screenshot almost a year ago

from the psp version

even later edit: apparently i was a few years ago bored enough to make so many screenshots of the psp version of Mashifoni because i found these while browsing through my photobucket account


Last edited by hyl; 2013-08-28 at 06:47.
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Old 2013-08-28, 08:52   Link #4166
KanbeKotori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I was talking about ports that came out to ps2/psp/ps3 or xbox360. Those are not based of eroges with the option of hiding H-scenes (i haven't even played any games that gives me such an option, but that would be my experience)
Like the ones that i have read that worked without H-scenes: Akaneiro ni Somaru Saka, Mashiroiro Symphony, Gift, Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate, Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru 2.
Ah okay, I've read those eroge only on PC so I didn't know those ports are non-eroge.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Then you can still "change" the H-scene into an implied one instead of an explicit one. Like in the psp ports of Mashiroiro Symphony or Koichoco

edit: made this screenshot almost a year ago

from the psp version

even later edit: apparently i was a few years ago bored enough to make so many screenshots of the psp version of Mashifoni because i found these while browsing through my photobucket account


Well in the end you can't just do it for most of the eroge. You need to have a suitable plot and setting if you wanna sub the H scenes out.

That being said, I might read those titles again.....I hope the all age version isn't THAT different from the original.
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Old 2013-08-28, 09:52   Link #4167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
That being said, I might read those titles again.....I hope the all age version isn't THAT different from the original.
I have the all-age version from Mashiro-iro Symphony. Part of the common route is different due to the addition of a new character (Satsuki, I think), but nothing really too oustanding. Obviously, ero removed and added Sana's route.
With quite a few ported all-age VNs you can say that in "exchange" for the ero, there are other additions to make up for it (unless you must have ero; then these additions won't compensate enough - for lack of better words"). Be it new scenes, new character routes and/or new CGs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
A lot of this was actually based on slightly-twisted information. Kiss scenes were even featured prominently in the promo material for the game. The issue was that one of the kiss scenes had a "cut-in" that had a close-up of the french kiss with saliva strands (etc.), and they removed the "cut-ins" (along with the extended kissing "dialogue" that matched) in favour of just leaving the kiss itself. Obviously, it's still an editorial change and some will object on principle, but it's one that is consistent with the tone of the revised work, and isn't intended to make the game less romantic, just a bit less explicit.
Thanks. That explains it of course quite better. In this case (i. e. the saliva strands, make-outish extended scenes) it's acceptable because the moment itself was being kept intact. Due to the ragestorm caused by it, a fan-made restoration patch appeared rather quickly. Maybe one of the faster/fastest reactions in the English VN-community
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Old 2013-08-28, 10:02   Link #4168
KanbeKotori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou View Post
I have the all-age version from Mashiro-iro Symphony. Part of the common route is different due to the addition of a new character (Satsuki, I think), but nothing really too oustanding. Obviously, ero removed and added Sana's route.
With quite a few ported all-age VNs you can say that in "exchange" for the ero, there are other additions to make up for it (unless you must have ero; then these additions won't compensate enough - for lack of better words"). Be it new scenes, new character routes and/or new CGs.
I'm okay with all these. What I'm concerned with is will the depth of the story go down or not.

I can say I'm rather satisfied with the all age version of Kud Wafter and LB ME(those are by KEY duh so I might be a bit bias but they have not disappoint me so far). I hope the other all age version titles won't disappoint me.
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Old 2013-08-28, 15:15   Link #4169
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
Well in the end you can't just do it for most of the eroge. You need to have a suitable plot and setting if you wanna sub the H scenes out.

That being said, I might read those titles again.....I hope the all age version isn't THAT different from the original.
Hyl went out of his way to provide you with psp galge titles, all of them in my book are high profile and high quality in both art and story. Seriously though, there are TONS more galge in psp, which in turn automatically turns it all ages. Actually the reason I bought a PSP in the first place was to play these, which often have additional contents the PC versions don't have, even though the H-scenes were removed.

What you can't do is make most nukige all-ages, but then what kind of depth do you really expect from most nukige really?
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Old 2013-08-28, 16:17   Link #4170
KanbeKotori
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Hyl went out of his way to provide you with psp galge titles, all of them in my book are high profile and high quality in both art and story. Seriously though, there are TONS more galge in psp, which in turn automatically turns it all ages. Actually the reason I bought a PSP in the first place was to play these, which often have additional contents the PC versions don't have, even though the H-scenes were removed.

What you can't do is make most nukige all-ages, but then what kind of depth do you really expect from most nukige really?
I appreciate what he/she did but you know sometimes a company can try to be funny and anyhow sub the scenes out. I trust the parent company but not those western companies.

You know what happened to Kono Oozora ni, Tsubasa wo Hirogete. Those western companies sometimes know nuts how to change an eroge into something non-eroge.

An example I point out is EF. My friend said the Eng translations by MangaGamer were good but I find them mediocre....much much more worse than the original.

I don't read any nukige and I know it's impossible to convert it to all age. Besides all nukige have shit stories(I don't even bother to read them while tracking monthly eroge releases).
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Old 2013-08-28, 16:33   Link #4171
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
I appreciate what he/she did but you know sometimes a company can try to be funny and anyhow sub the scenes out. I trust the parent company but not those western companies.

You know what happened to Kono Oozora ni, Tsubasa wo Hirogete. Those western companies sometimes know nuts how to change an eroge into something non-eroge.
Moenovel seems to be strongly related to Willplus. It's even possible (and some others also think this) that it is even a subsidiary of Willplus and that would make Moenovel a part of the parent company.
So most of these decisions for changes on "If my Heart had wings" were probably also made by the original staff


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
An example I point out is EF. My friend said the Eng translations by MangaGamer were good but I find them mediocre....much much more worse than the original.
I think i once said this on twitter, but it's nearly impossible to make a translation that equals the original.
It's not even possible in other media like world literature. The translated versions of books that i read, such as Madame Bovary, Les miserables, 1984 or any work from Shakespeare, were worse than the original. In some languages , the translation were even much worse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
Besides all nukige have shit stories(I don't even bother to read them while tracking monthly eroge releases).
Harumade Kururu (which in first part of the story starts out as a nukige) and possibly some others beg to differ


Edit: because my laptop broke down unexpectedly, i am forced to play 1/2 summer+ on the psp. Let's see what they have changed with this port, because from what i can remember the original was pretty heavy on the H-scenes

Last edited by hyl; 2013-08-28 at 16:47.
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Old 2013-08-28, 22:33   Link #4172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Moenovel seems to be strongly related to Willplus. It's even possible (and some others also think this) that it is even a subsidiary of Willplus and that would make Moenovel a part of the parent company.
So most of these decisions for changes on "If my Heart had wings" were probably also made by the original staff
Yes, actually, this is the case. Moenovel is in the Willplus family, and they even had new dialogue voice-acted (in Japanese) for some of the dialogue changes they made to the game (to accommodate the cut/modified content). So as far as ports go, it's as official if not more-so than any of those PSP ports.

So, indeed, quite contrary to KanbeKotori's point, these were decisions made by the Japanese parent company that may not necessarily have been made if the game had been licensed in the usual way to JAST or MangaGamer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
An example I point out is EF. My friend said the Eng translations by MangaGamer were good but I find them mediocre....much much more worse than the original.
...much, much worse than the original what? If by chance you mean those in the original fan translation, this is a bit dubious since the script is essentially the same minus clean-up and editing. On the whole, it was not re-translated. But I'm not sure if by "translation", you really mean "translation" or if you mean "editing" (English phrasing/grammar/etc.) or something else.
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Old 2013-08-29, 07:26   Link #4173
KanbeKotori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Moenovel seems to be strongly related to Willplus. It's even possible (and some others also think this) that it is even a subsidiary of Willplus and that would make Moenovel a part of the parent company.
So most of these decisions for changes on "If my Heart had wings" were probably also made by the original staff
I only read a few of their VNs and without translations so I didn't know that. Okay then but you still don't see reputable companies doing it. I doubt Willplus is as reputable as Key/Favorite/ALcot/Yuzusoft just to name a few. I got to admit though now that some companies are disappointing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I think i once said this on twitter, but it's nearly impossible to make a translation that equals the original.
It's not even possible in other media like world literature. The translated versions of books that i read, such as Madame Bovary, Les miserables, 1984 or any work from Shakespeare, were worse than the original. In some languages , the translation were even much worse.
No I mean in terms of emotions and such. One notable failed translation besides EF is Hoshizora no Memoria. Yume's route was horribly translated which ended up losing lots of depths it had in terms of emotion level etc.... People who read the translated version were so confused and rage on the discussion threads in vndb.

I do know it's impossible to make it on par but at least keep the meaning like how translators did for Narcissu series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Harumade Kururu (which in first part of the story starts out as a nukige) and possibly some others beg to differ
Okay I generally hate nukige so I have no comments here. Perhaps there are indeed some that have good stories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
...much, much worse than the original what? If by chance you mean those in the original fan translation, this is a bit dubious since the script is essentially the same minus clean-up and editing. On the whole, it was not re-translated. But I'm not sure if by "translation", you really mean "translation" or if you mean "editing" (English phrasing/grammar/etc.) or something else.
Probably as a whole, more on the phrasing portion. I just don't get the same feeling of depth as the original when I read the translated version.
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Old 2013-08-29, 07:48   Link #4174
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
I only read a few of their VNs and without translations so I didn't know that. Okay then but you still don't see reputable companies doing it. I doubt Willplus is as reputable as Key/Favorite/ALcot/Yuzusoft just to name a few. I got to admit though now that some companies are disappointing.
For the Western people, Willplus is known for making Yume Miru Kusuri.
Willplus is probably these days more known for their collaborations and their popular subsidiaries such as Pulltop, Ensemble or Propeller, rather than making noteworthy eroges themselves.
But that can also be said for Akabei Soft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
No I mean in terms of emotions and such. One notable failed translation besides EF is Hoshizora no Memoria. Yume's route was horribly translated which ended up losing lots of depths it had in terms of emotion level etc.... People who read the translated version were so confused and rage on the discussion threads in vndb.

I do know it's impossible to make it on par but at least keep the meaning like how translators did for Narcissu series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
Probably as a whole, more on the phrasing portion. I just don't get the same feeling of depth as the original when I read the translated version.
While i haven't read the English translated version of HoshiMemo or EF myself, i know that those 2 were fan translated.
Things will get lost in translation , but i think the most important thing is that the translator wants the reader to get the general idea/impression what the original game was trying to say. This way the reader (who probably can't read japanese ) can still the enjoy the story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
Okay I generally hate nukige so I have no comments here. Perhaps there are indeed some that have good stories.
The majority of nukiges still have poor stories though. But there are a few ones that have a decent story, so you can't exactly say "all nukiges have bad stories"
I also recalled Euphoria for having a good plot, hidden under all the torture porn.
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Old 2013-08-29, 09:18   Link #4175
Mahou
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I only played the fan-traslated version of Ef, but I found nothing wrong with it. The drama was still - for me - powerful and emotionally done correctly, for example.
Spoiler for Off-topic:


Before I venture even more into off-topic, I better not start about a few elitist (the bad ones) attitudes on vndb, which I saw on occation when skimming through the database

/back to replaying Rina's route in Fureraba
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Old 2013-08-29, 10:50   Link #4176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post

The majority of nukiges still have poor stories though. But there are a few ones that have a decent story, so you can't exactly say "all nukiges have bad stories"
I also recalled Euphoria for having a good plot, hidden under all the torture porn.
Pretty good in my experience. On the contrary, I find that nukiges usually have the better stories, given that it has a darker atmosphere and isn't harem. But I'm probably biased because I personally consider all relationship drama/romance for the sake of romance bad stories. This doesn't leave me much to work with.

I finished Euphoria recently. It was quite decent. I think the problem isn't that nukiges have "bad" stories, but more like they have relatively more plot holes. The stories themselves are not bad. The plot holes come from the few farfetched ero scenes here and there that created inconsistencies. But generally I don't find nukige stories to be much more inferior to regular eroge stories.
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Old 2013-08-29, 15:18   Link #4177
KanbeKotori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
For the Western people, Willplus is known for making Yume Miru Kusuri.
Willplus is probably these days more known for their collaborations and their popular subsidiaries such as Pulltop, Ensemble or Propeller, rather than making noteworthy eroges themselves.
But that can also be said for Akabei Soft.
I've never heard of them so I searched them up in vndb. Apparently they only done 3 VNs....which I don't think is a prove that they have pretty good reputation among VN readers.

Since I don't know much about the Western market(I'm not even a Westerner myself), I probably don't know how their market works but from what I see in the Japanese market, you have more eroge produced and those that are converted to all age version are usually done appropriately(like what you've shown me) and not just censoring every freaking H scenes. Either they are freaking lazy or they just couldn't be bothered producing a proper all age version of Kono Oozora ni, Tsubasa wo Hirogete which is rather disappointing. They have some good VNs but the way they handle Kono Oozora ni, Tsubasa wo Hirogete is just terrible. Not what a reputable company would do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
While i haven't read the English translated version of HoshiMemo or EF myself, i know that those 2 were fan translated.
Things will get lost in translation , but i think the most important thing is that the translator wants the reader to get the general idea/impression what the original game was trying to say. This way the reader (who probably can't read japanese ) can still the enjoy the story.
I didn't read the translated version of HoshiMemo too but it's enough to see the rage. I don't want to waste my time reading the translated version when I know it's gonna be bad already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
The majority of nukiges still have poor stories though. But there are a few ones that have a decent story, so you can't exactly say "all nukiges have bad stories"
I also recalled Euphoria for having a good plot, hidden under all the torture porn.
I just don't like nukige cos they aren't story-centric. The focus on nukige are the H scenes, more H scenes and even more H scenes..which is essentially just porn -.-

I want to read VNs that have good stories. If people like those H scenes so much they might as well go watch hentai. -____-"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou View Post
I only played the fan-traslated version of Ef, but I found nothing wrong with it. The drama was still - for me - powerful and emotionally done correctly, for example.
Spoiler for Off-topic:


Before I venture even more into off-topic, I better not start about a few elitist (the bad ones) attitudes on vndb, which I saw on occation when skimming through the database

/back to replaying Rina's route in Fureraba
There WAS an improvement made. Before it was so terrible I want to cringe(talk about Flyable Heart being machine translated. The quality is just OMG -.-).

Even with the improvement they are still far from the standards of those who done the translation for Narcissu.
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Old 2013-08-29, 17:21   Link #4178
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
I want to read VNs that have good stories. If people like those H scenes so much they might as well go watch hentai. -____-"
I beg to differ. In my books any nukige is still infinitely better than any hentai anime (and a lot of the best quality ero can be found in doujin format). The anime medium is best when they thread in the fanservice and risque territory rather than all out porn imo.
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Old 2013-08-30, 01:11   Link #4179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
I've never heard of them so I searched them up in vndb. Apparently they only done 3 VNs....which I don't think is a prove that they have pretty good reputation among VN readers.
I think you're missing the point of the comment. Willplus is the parent company that owns/operates a ton of different brands. I'd say they're definitely a "reputable brand" among VN readers. If you were referring to Akabeisoft, the point here too is that they're a company that operates a lot of different brands, and may be recognized more for their brands than for things published under their own label.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KanbeKotori View Post
[...] from what I see in the Japanese market, you have more eroge produced and those that are converted to all age version are usually done appropriately(like what you've shown me) and not just censoring every freaking H scenes. Either they are freaking lazy or they just couldn't be bothered producing a proper all age version of Kono Oozora ni, Tsubasa wo Hirogete which is rather disappointing. They have some good VNs but the way they handle Kono Oozora ni, Tsubasa wo Hirogete is just terrible. Not what a reputable company would do.
This is a "proper all-age version". It features a fully-edited script, re-recorded voice acting for changed lines, adjustments to the CGs, and is a polished package with age ratings in the target markets. They didn't just "censor every freaking H scene"; they adjusted the script so that it flowed appropriately. Really the only difference between what they did and what happens for Japanese all-ages releases is that typically they get some new CGs and often new routes to entice people who already purchased the original game to buy it again. But given that it was never released in English markets before, they weren't going to add content that even the Japanese market didn't get yet.

I mean, you can have opinions about whether you like their editorial choices, but there's nothing about it what they did here that makes it "not proper" or that suggests it isn't "what a reputable company would do". It's a totally legit English all-ages release by the original game makers in collaboration with a known translation company. I'm not sure how it could be any more "legit" than that. If you don't like their approach and have good reasons, then that's the sort of constructive feedback they need so they can consider what to do for their next project.
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Old 2013-08-30, 03:51   Link #4180
KanbeKotori
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I think you're missing the point of the comment. Willplus is the parent company that owns/operates a ton of different brands. I'd say they're definitely a "reputable brand" among VN readers. If you were referring to Akabeisoft, the point here too is that they're a company that operates a lot of different brands, and may be recognized more for their brands than for things published under their own label.
I know Willplus operates under different names. VNDB have it recorded. As for Akabei Soft...I don't see that at all(I'm too lazy to go to the main site and I'm referring to them). Unless VNDB is doing something wrong, I don't see why it isn't reflected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
This is a "proper all-age version". It features a fully-edited script, re-recorded voice acting for changed lines, adjustments to the CGs, and is a polished package with age ratings in the target markets. They didn't just "censor every freaking H scene"; they adjusted the script so that it flowed appropriately. Really the only difference between what they did and what happens for Japanese all-ages releases is that typically they get some new CGs and often new routes to entice people who already purchased the original game to buy it again. But given that it was never released in English markets before, they weren't going to add content that even the Japanese market didn't get yet.

I mean, you can have opinions about whether you like their editorial choices, but there's nothing about it what they did here that makes it "not proper" or that suggests it isn't "what a reputable company would do". It's a totally legit English all-ages release by the original game makers in collaboration with a known translation company. I'm not sure how it could be any more "legit" than that. If you don't like their approach and have good reasons, then that's the sort of constructive feedback they need so they can consider what to do for their next project.
Okay to be fair I haven't read Kono Oozora ni, Tsubasa wo Hirogete yet but don't tell me all the rage were false. Why would so many people rage so hard about it WHICH in the end they had to come out with a restoration patch? It just doesn't make sense if the scenes were changed appropriately.

Besides take a look at this: http://vndb.org/r27811. The Japanese market haven't even release an all age version and the Western market decided to do it which I cannot see the point. Usually the Japanese market WILL release an all age version before the Western side do unless you tell me that this is an exception that the parent company decided to release an all age version first. If that's so, why do you need the above-mentioned link patch? It just doesn't add up.

Even if it were the parent company collaborating with a known translation company, I doubt they would have to release the above-mentioned patch if things were going well. Don't forget they DID release the eroge version in the Western market itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I beg to differ. In my books any nukige is still infinitely better than any hentai anime (and a lot of the best quality ero can be found in doujin format). The anime medium is best when they thread in the fanservice and risque territory rather than all out porn imo.
Well I've never read any nukige, perhaps so that it might be better but hyl already mentioned most of them have rather poor story. I guess for a person who is story-centric like me my standards for what is a good story is much higher.

You can't deny though. The ratio(it seemed so, correct me if I'm wrong) of story to H scenes in nukige is as high as hentai itself.
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