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Old 2006-02-14, 15:35   Link #21
riznar
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I'm not sure if this is the right thread to do this in, but I wanted to put forward this idea:

What if Hazumu had Klinefelter's syndrome or was a Chimera in his male form. Thus when he gets dusted by the space ship, his Y chromosomes were lost and they had to rebuild from the XX left over.

This could explain how he seems to have gender identity issues and provides a plausible explanation for the sex change.

Of course, there is the outside-the-4th-wall-element that this is an anime made for boys and follows certain patterns...
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Old 2006-02-14, 15:59   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila
some random stuff about asian men
I would love to agree with you.... HOWEVER...

I am an asian man. But there stops the correlation between the generalization and my circumstance.

I could care less about perpetuating my (and my father's) lineage through my sons-to-be, because...

1.) My father's lineage is already dominant, especially in my home province. Heck, my uncle (father's brother) has so many sons (as well as daughters)--both legitimate and illegitimate I don't know the names of all my cousins.

2.) My mother's lineage is the one at risk. She was an only child. Thus, I have no maternal first-cousins. Most of my cousins are second cousins from her mother's (my maternal grandmother) side.

3.) My maternal grandfather died before I was born. However stories in my hometown say that he was a great man. Also the fact that most of my inheritance and would-be inheritance is the result of his hard work, more than that of my father's.

Thus, I must have a daughter to pass on my mother's X-chromosome (which she in turn also got from her father) and preserve her genetic heritage, as well as the heritage of my maternal grandfather.

So I identify fully with Hazumu's father. A daughter would be cherished, and would be very appropriate for genetic balance. Then again, Philippine society is the more clan matriarchy malay type society rather than the patriarchal oriental type society. My entire apartment block is headed by matriarchs. That is why in future marriage / business transactions it is very important that my mother has more power than the mother of the bride...it is the power of our clan which is at stake. I am seriously contemplating either changing my surname to my mother's maiden name, or else inheriting the spouse's name upon marriage. This is no loss, since my surname / father's name is like the equivalent of "Smith". It also doesn't help that my father has been more aloof while I was a teenager.

I can also identify with Hazumu because at one time someone commented that if I had been a girl, I would be very pretty and enjoyable to be with. From then on I'd started to be attracted to cute things.

Last edited by DaFool; 2006-02-14 at 16:25.
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Old 2006-02-14, 19:22   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riznar
I'm not sure if this is the right thread to do this in, but I wanted to put forward this idea:

What if Hazumu had Klinefelter's syndrome or was a Chimera in his male form. Thus when he gets dusted by the space ship, his Y chromosomes were lost and they had to rebuild from the XX left over.

This could explain how he seems to have gender identity issues and provides a plausible explanation for the sex change.

Of course, there is the outside-the-4th-wall-element that this is an anime made for boys and follows certain patterns...
*followed the wiki links and nearly lost himself in the maze of cross-references... *

Ehh... but that's getting way too complicated for this. The best answer is that the alien is just a wierdo. There's a limit to how far you can take this.
Reminds me of someone comparing Yasuna's condition and Prosopagnosia, in which face recognition is impaired. Though prosopagnosia doesn't work the way Yasuna's condition does, in gender-selectivity and impairment-area, so meh.
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Old 2006-02-14, 19:59   Link #24
Ronin Aquila
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFool

So I identify fully with Hazumu's father. A daughter would be cherished, and would be very appropriate for genetic balance. Then again, Philippine society is the more clan matriarchy malay type society rather than the patriarchal oriental type society. My entire apartment block is headed by matriarchs. That is why in future marriage / business transactions it is very important that my mother has more power than the mother of the bride...it is the power of our clan which is at stake. I am seriously contemplating either changing my surname to my mother's maiden name, or else inheriting the spouse's name upon marriage. This is no loss, since my surname / father's name is like the equivalent of "Smith". It also doesn't help that my father has been more aloof while I was a teenager.

I can also identify with Hazumu because at one time someone commented that if I had been a girl, I would be very pretty and enjoyable to be with. From then on I'd started to be attracted to cute things.
Begging your pardon, sir, I did not realize the cultural nuances of Philipino cutlure and its differences from Taiwanese culture. I thousand pardons.

I too (especially after becoming a full fledged anime fan) have become quite "abnormally" attracted to cute stuff by Taiwanese standards. The same "macho" upbrining that indoctirnates an overbearing sense of duty to pass down the parternal bloodline also causes the softer and more sentimental aspects of life to be unfortunately held in general contempt.

A few more questions, if I may:

1) Duty aside, your Y (and indeed every bloke's Y) is the only part that is his and makes him who he is. Thus, If not done in the interest of preserving paternal legacy, it ensures that you won't die by the time you leave this world. For yourself at least?

2) I trust you would still love your sons if you had any?

3) How does the inheritance system work in Philipino cutlure compared to the frankly unfair and mysoginistic system of Taiwan?
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Old 2006-02-15, 11:24   Link #25
DaFool
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1) There is more to me than my Y chromosome.

2) Of course However, I wouldn't know how to raise them the macho way

3) The inheritance system is technically equal. About the only thing steadfastly patriarchal is the surname inheritance system and bride price (well, it's not dowry at least!) Now of course, the more affluent classes have Spanish or Chinese blood and they naturally carry some European or Oriental patriarchal attitudes with them. My paternal grandfather favored his daughters (my aunts) over his sons, so they were able to save up to immigrate to the U.S. His sons (my father and uncle) were pretty much (and currently are) screwed. Then again, that's just him.

The Filipino language makes no distinction between masculine and feminine when referring to people. Contrast this with German where even objects have a gender. Thus, in a Kashimashi-type situation, no rewriting of methods of speaking and addressing are necessary, if given a Philippine setting.
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Old 2006-02-15, 15:08   Link #26
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila
....1) Duty aside, your Y (and indeed every bloke's Y) is the only part that is his and makes him who he is. Thus, If not done in the interest of preserving paternal legacy, it ensures that you won't die by the time you leave this world. For yourself at least?....
I agree with your general point about Chinese social attitudes, especially in so-called Greater China, and the desirability of keeping such realism out of Kashimashi. I just don't agree with your XY stuff. The Y chromosome apparently represents about 2 percent of your genome. The other 98 percent also makes you who you are.

It's true that the Y comes exclusively from the father, so it can be used to track paternal lines over time. But how important is this, really? Are you just your DNA? And why is your father's one Y more important than 22 other chromosomes that are combinations from both parents? In fact, this makes it the one thing that is not you as an individual, but only as part of your paternal history. It's the chromosomes that are mixtures that make you a unique individual.

Anyway, I think emphasis on biological paternity is a new attitude, a kind of revisionist traditionalism. Traditionally in China, it was not uncommon to adopt a son when you didn't have one yourself. I believe that the continuance of the surname and the branch of the family was more important than biological paternity. (I admit this usually involved adoption of nephews.)

As for continuing the surname and the family-branch, I have a relative in Beijing who was first-born in his family but took his mother's surname so that her father's line could be continued before he died. So there is more than one way to continue the line. And, of course, Li Peng was Zhou Enlai's adopted son, but kept his original surname.

I do agree, however, that having a son remains pretty important to most Chinese men. I just want to say that I regret that. Chinese patriarchal attitudes of various kinds have kept the society going for centuries, but in my opinion at the cost of making it a living hell for a lot of people, not just women.
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Old 2006-02-17, 18:59   Link #27
physics223
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And so thought begins...

This is quite an intellectual discussion, actually. For me, the most inviting among the relationships in the story is between Yasuna and Hazumu. Let me expound.

(I have watched only up to episode two, and am Filipino myself, so I can associate with DaFool. But I'm not going to talk about being Filipino or about DNA, or even about society. I'm going to talk about my perceptions.)

Hazumu is important to Yasuna. We can infer from her speed at going to the mountaintop when she knew there was something wrong with Hazumu, and with the secret planting of the flowers which were their bonds to one another. Surreptitiously, the creator implies that she denied Hazumu not in spite of herself, but because of something else. That something else was not yet revealed.

I like noble love relationships, and that is why I like watching anime. How can you quantify the love of Arcueid for Shiki?
Spoiler for Shingetsutan Tsukihime:


How can you quantify the love of Kouta for Nyu when it comes to real-life? How can you show the circumstances? You can't, because human action is limited to humanity. And that is why I watch anime.

I mean, it would have been good if Yasuna told Hazumu that she couldn't be with him because of other things, but that is for later. What I really like, however, is her predicament with herself. She really likes Hazumu despite her turning him down, however, it is difficult to grapple now, for he has become a girl. I'd be in very deep pain if I were her.

Imagine if you were close with Charlize Theron, and she likes you, but for some reason she tells you she can't (for now). What if one day she transforms into a handsome guy and becomes Charles Theron, still looking hot as hell, but now a man? I'd be really struggling with myself, honestly.

Tomari's predicament is understandable. However, I think Yasuna's is the bigger problem here.
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Old 2006-02-20, 16:49   Link #28
Kaoru Chujo
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I wondered about the strange power of this anime, and wrote some ideas about it in my blog. Do boys just want to be girls?

I think that cute anime girls are not just fantasy objects of desire, but also expressions of the "anima," which is a psychological concept from Carl Jung: a female figure that shows up in men's dreams and fantasies and acts like a spirit guide, opening them up to their inner feelings and nature. The girls embody the animephile's inner self. So Kashimashi is particularly powerful because it doesn't just show you an anima, it turns the protagonist into one, meaning that you identify with it even more strongly than in other animes.
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Old 2006-03-01, 12:08   Link #29
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You're getting at something here. However, though I like Kashimashi, it does not fully resonate my whole being. Maybe it's a little too melodramatic...make it more mental like Zettai Shonen and perhaps I'll like it even more.

What does resonate my whole being?

Marimite (another shoujo-ai show, but it's actually shoujo not seinen), Aria the Animation, anything YKK-like.

Some have classified anime I like as iyashi-kei, or healing, relaxing anime.
Others have classified them as Otome-kei type moe...moe stories with minimal male presence where the heroines are in an ideal innocent environment.

Put them together, and basically I like charming lighthearted slice-of-life stories about innocent girls. The innocence and lightheartedness is just as important as the femaleness of the settings. Heavy drama such as Kiminozo need not apply here. It might be possible to put innocence and lightheartedness in a male setting, I don't know, it might work, but no one has ever tried.

Here's how I analyze this. It's been often said that females give, and males take. However notice that the explanation for the male symbol:

"Borrowed from the astrological sigil of the planet Mars, this symbol represents men and masculine energy. It is composed of the circle of unity and the arrow of action.

Masculine energy is seen as yang - kinetic, active, expanding."

The active arrow of action, in effect, projects the essence of the self (circle of unity)...it essentially gives of itself. It is Purpose. It is Self-sacrifice. It is the Ideal. That is why messiah figures such as Jesus are male and could not be female. That is why we have no qualms in sending our sons to war to become cannon fodder. I bet that many people (me included) would feel very uncomfortable in sending daughters to war, even if they have proven to be capable aggressors.

Now compare and contrast a typical purpose-driven masculine story plot to a its-the-journey-that-matters feminine 'story' (or what even counts as story) plot. Iyashi-kei / Otome-kei anime fills that void nicely and provides the complement.

Though in my opinion Kashimashi is a little too melodramatic to qualify as full-fledged Iyashi / Otome-kei anime. Yes, it does drain a little, whereas the genre is supposed to be fully soothing, relaxing, uplifting.
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Old 2006-03-01, 12:42   Link #30
riznar
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Man, and people said I was over analysing it.
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Old 2006-03-03, 18:14   Link #31
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I somewhat agree with physics223. This anime doens't really have any special power of it's own. Just a less-used plot outline.
We watch fiction because we want to feed our imagination with all kinds of stuff not possible in real life. Be it changing genders, having leet ninja powers to defy physics with, it doesn't make a difference to me as long as the art and script are good enough.
Main character gets to taste some forbidden fruit, completely changing his life and giving him unearthly energy and influence. Surely it's not our first time seeing something like it?
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Old 2006-03-22, 04:19   Link #32
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Ronin Aquila
...
Fire Away, I know that even honesty will get me flamed. Not like it has not happened before now has it? [/B]
Nothing to flame --- this is a problem in *many* cultures. Even the so-called "open western" cultures suffer from it (you can see the look when "its a girl" versus "its a boy"). My wife and I wanted one of each --- I *dearly* wanted a girl to raise as a kick ass and take names bright light... no such luck, we got two boys.

I was wandering around in a toy store one day and a little girl and her daddy passed by: he wanted to take her over to the Legos section. Her four year old response: "Daddy, those are Boy's Toys" His reaction: "WHO THE HELL TOLD YOU THAT!!!!!"
Answer: all her damned peers who'd already been infected by their idiot parents.

I will say its a LOT better in some parts of the world than it used to be .. but it still has a LONG way to go.

Note to Kaoru Chujo: very interesting blog link with the Jungian analysis -- I can't say I don't reflect on how my life might have gone with the change of that little chromosome before birth ... but it does bring a smile to encapsulate that as a little moe femme personification ---- I pick Hazuki, she reflects my crabby inner self.
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Old 2006-03-31, 02:59   Link #33
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Personally, I think Hazumu fits the role of a female better than a male, he was very effeminate to begin with. Tomari, Yasuna, Asuta and the rest who knew him in the past however had difficulties (obviously) with his sudden gender change.

P.S: I think Hazumu was effeminate because of some crazy upbringing from his wacked parents. Remember they said, "We've always wanted a girl." right after they knew about Hazumu's transformation? Genes may play a part, but socialization is a key factor too.
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Old 2006-04-01, 18:20   Link #34
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I've kind of evolved the notion that Hazumu was actually destroyed when the ship crushed him, but the aliens had a "quantum snapshot" technology (ref: AC Clarke's The Light of Latter Days) that allowed them to capture his memories and personality. The bit of DNA they recovered was enough (though this "fate element" they bring in seems a bit mystical and drops into the free-will versus a static space-time debate) to construct a girl. So we have Hazumu 2.0 --- ala "startrek transporter error".

The fact Hazumu was unhappy as a boy (parents wanted a girl, always picked on, enjoyed gardening, not athletic, etc) only made it easier for the personality and memories to fit into the new environment.

I kind of lament they didn't explore the impact of his relationship with his buddy Asuta more seriously (hope the manga treats it differently). Like I said elsewhere, here we have an attractive girl who has the memories and personality of our favorite buddy... what to do what to do Of course, we got a taste of the dilemma with Tomari who had gone up to that point just assuming she'd end up with a guy for a lover.

Interesting stuff treated in kind of light way but sometimes thats a better way to engage people.
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Old 2006-04-01, 21:36   Link #35
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I was actually a little suprised when people (Asuta, Tomari) were assuming Hazumu would end up with a guy. A change of body structure (which Vexx described very eloquently I might add) didn't, at least in my assumptions, alter Hazumu's sexual orientation.

But I suppose Tomari was going on social assumtions (is lesbianism still that taboo in this day and age?) and Asuta was going on wishful thinking...

ALOT of wishful thinking i might add...

I find myself very amused by Asuta, but they could have made his character at least have had his dilemma of lusting after a former guy and close friend last more than half an episode... (a fanservice beach episode at that) it kinda cheapened their friendship as it was before the crash, at least in my opinion.

Hazumu clearly has speech patterns reminicient of a boy, and has NO interest in males, as much as Asuta would like it to be otherwise, so he'll just hilariously keep butting his head against the proverbial wall while we all sit back and chuckle to ourselves: "Oh, Asuta, will you never learn?"
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Old 2006-04-01, 22:41   Link #36
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I don't know that its "social assumptions" or "taboo" so much as just Tomari's personal expectations or dreams about what it meant to grow up.

The "taboo" depends on where you live ... some areas would still just as soon burn them as witches... others are completely oblivious to it being a problem.

It didn't seem clear whether Hazumu was uncertain enough about his maleness that bisexuality was a possiblity.

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-04-01 at 22:53.
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Old 2006-04-01, 23:27   Link #37
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I see what you mean, I may have been thinking in the bounds of the show's setting and intended audience. I mean this isn't the first shoujo ai to make it to TV, and the setting is modern day and similar to any place that it is aired. Clearly it's reached beyond that boundary which is why this thread is getting so much attention I suppose.

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Old 2006-04-01, 23:45   Link #38
Vexx
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The characters within the story seem pretty open-minded about the idea of fem-fem relationships ... or perhaps its Hazumu's special background making it ok with them?

For silly reasons not worth going into, strong female relationships don't get the same panic from the lynch mob as strong male relationships. Class it as irrational fear of the closet.

ah well... I can see why Tomari was so confused --- she (like most people) had this Plan A of how her life was going to go. And then things happened.
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Old 2006-04-02, 16:58   Link #39
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Land sakes alive is she ever confused... Certainly the girl has more issues to deal with than Yasuna. I can't help but feel like Yasuna's 'condition' (I guess one would call it) is either a metaphor for strongly repressed homosexual tendencies or a cheap gimmick to get around it, (I mean, who WOULDN'T choose female-Hazumu over any random blob-man?) but maybe im reading into it too much...

Perhaps the writers figured there was enough drama between the main three, but I still would have liked to see Asuta's role given more attention. His rapid transition made me sort of assume he may have been drawn to Hazumu before the accident. (was that more than just a hug of fear in the karaoke flashback? )
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Old 2006-04-02, 17:28   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
The characters within the story seem pretty open-minded about the idea of fem-fem relationships ... or perhaps its Hazumu's special background making it ok with them?
Actually, from what I understand (and I haven't watched episodes 11 and 12, btw), most people think Tomari loved/went out with Hazumu when she was a guy (the discussion at the training center with Tomari's friends), but she "can't go back with her now", whereas Yasuna is the cold, distant type without many friends and whom not many people notice, despite her innate ojousama-ness.

Back to the conversation... the manga explained why Hazumu became a girl, so I'm not getting into that, but yeah, there's a lot of hints as to Hazumu's parents being at fault for her easy feminity...
...that picture with Children!Hazumu & Tomari both wearing dresses comes to mind. He was already soft-voiced, soft-faced, liked gardening and whenever he got teased, his best female friend came to rescue him like a knight. It's no wonder his sexual identity was screwed up.
Hell, Tomari makes a better guy than Hazumu (with her pigtails, I mean). I'm betting if there was a school play, Hazumu'd end up Juliet and Tomari as Romeo, hairstyles excluded
Really, changing into a girl was pretty much the best thing that could have happened to him... Yasuna included in the deal of course

As for Asuta... he's comic relief.
Direction decisions aside, the change wasn't instantaneous... he noticed as early as episode 2 that Hazumu was cute, then constantly had the fact that his best friend was now a very cute girl shoved into his face repeatedly until it broke (...not sure what broke exactly, but certainly something did) during the beach episode. Then from that point on, he was lost into the land of Romantic Comedy relief.
Hm... an Asuta-reedeeming fanfic... I want to read that. Maybe as far as Asuta+Hazumu...
...maybe.
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