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Old 2013-09-03, 15:27   Link #101
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Typeblue View Post
At times this forum looks like a Author bashing forum. I enjoy Naruto, I think it's better written than most comparable long running Mangas suh as, OP, DBZ, YYH, HXH, and Bleach.
I don't think it's "bashing", it's just explaining what could be better. I personally like the manga, it's the only shonen manga i read, tried a few others but somehow i was not interested enough (instead i often watch the anime adaptation).

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Originally Posted by Typeblue View Post
Maybe most of you guys are just too smart for this Manga.
If you look at all the examples Hunter made you see that there's no need to be "smart" to sooner or later notice this pattern, its really something quite clear. It didn't bother me before the Pain arc, because Naruto is the hero, this is a shonen manga, it's the usual cliche' that is used everywhere to some extent, etc. However when the manga calls Naruto a "revolutionary" and Pain tells him that his path will contain a lot of pain and he will be emotionally hurt and might not endure that path and after all this you see how the author lets Naruto avoid all the big problems (see Hunter's points) it became somewhat annoying. I wouldn't even notice it if it was not the author himself that described this difficult path of a revolutionary who will change the world. A "revolutionary" is someone who turns against Danzou's evil ways and gets rid of the old corrupted evil man, he also unites the villages against evil, etc. One could say that Naruto is too dumb to do these things. That's true, but he's not alone. There are his friends, his real power is to make friends. With friends like Shikamaru who can thing of strategies and politics, friendly leader Gaara, top jounins like Kakashi, Yamato, Shikaku who would follow him, etc. he could do it. And best of this would be that if friends helped him in meaningful ways then side characters like Shikamaru would have gotten more interesting and meaningful roles. Of course if Naruto didn't have such a huge luck factor that would mean that his enemies (Tobito, etc.) would have to be less overpowered, but that would also benefit the side characters too, since currently people like Shikamaru have no chance to do anything meaningful because the enemy is insanely overpowered.
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Old 2013-09-03, 16:43   Link #102
Hunter
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That's confirmation bias. You speak as if he knew Nagato would do a heel turn when he refused to kill him. Yes, the story turned out that way, but at the time when Naruto made that decision, he didn't know, and the decision was difficult for him, personally.
Yes so as I said you completely missed my point. I'm talking from the story point of view, the fact that "the story turned out that way" and always turns out that way is precisely what I'm addressing.
Naruto takes decisions, those decisions should have huge consequences for Naruto to struggle with and eventually triumph over. But those issues are resolved on their own without Naruto intervention which make them meaningless.
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Old 2013-09-03, 17:17   Link #103
Monster0
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So basically things go good for Naruto as if the whole universe was planned out just to make his life exciting, epic, easy. I've heard similar things said about real people.
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Old 2013-09-03, 17:49   Link #104
neji-kun
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Yes so as I said you completely missed my point. I'm talking from the story point of view, the fact that "the story turned out that way" and always turns out that way is precisely what I'm addressing.
Naruto takes decisions, those decisions should have huge consequences for Naruto to struggle with and eventually triumph over. But those issues are resolved on their own without Naruto intervention which make them meaningless.
It would seem to me like you missed Endscape's point, regardless of the fact that the story "turned out that way" Naruto still made those decisions with the intention of dealing with the consequences. The fact the he did not have to is not a character fault on the part of Naruto.
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Old 2013-09-03, 18:15   Link #105
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by Monster0 View Post
to make his life exciting, epic
That's our problem, it's really not exciting if Naruto doesn't have to face Danzou. He doesn't have to face the problem of creating an alliance between former enemies, etc. If you really like the main character you want him to deal with the big problems and solve them, and not let Sasuke kill Danzou and Tobito force the alliance to be created. Of course the author can still make a good plot which is reasonable (Tobito's plan was that the alliance would hide both tailed beasts at one place) and has good fights (i think the Danzou vs Sasuke fight was good), but it would have been much more interesting if these problems had to be solved by the main character. Instead Naruto was getting beaten up by some side character who was freshly introduced, counted penises on an island, was begging the raikage to let Sasuke live, was poisoned by Sakura, etc.

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Originally Posted by neji-kun View Post
The fact the he did not have to is not a character fault on the part of Naruto.
Look at it in a different way: having to deal with consequences has to cause character growth, not having to deal with any doesn't cause much growth.
When Naruto let Pain/Nagato go i would have liked if he just escaped and the thing was blamed on Naruto by Danzou. Then he would have had to leave the village, to deal with the mixed emotions of his former classmates, to deal with losing Kakashi, to realize that he would have to oppose the guy whose evil plot against Nagato and his friends caused the creation of Pain and the akatsuki, etc. He could still rely on his father's advice, he could still meet with his mother when he opens the seal to tame the kyuubi.
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Old 2013-09-03, 20:07   Link #106
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neji-kun View Post
It would seem to me like you missed Endscape's point, regardless of the fact that the story "turned out that way" Naruto still made those decisions with the intention of dealing with the consequences. The fact the he did not have to is not a character fault on the part of Naruto.
I am well aware of his point but it is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We're talking about the way the author writes his story, not whether a fictional character is at fault(!) when his creator makes things too easy for him.
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Old 2013-09-03, 20:31   Link #107
Typeblue
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Out of chakra? When did that happen? Naruto was perfectly fine was a meter away from pummeling into Nagato when he stopped and decided to let him go
Perhaps you are right but I saw the same scenario and interpreted it differently. Pain had chakra left, enough to resurrect all the dead in Konoha. He also had access to all 6 paths of pain (7 if you count Gedo). Let's not forget Konan. Naruto, on the other hand, was no longer enraged, so he no longer had access to a huge potion of Kyubi's chakra, add Yondaime's seal to the equation, and the fact that Naruto collapsed right after the fight; I would say Naruto was about out of Chakra or close to it.

Either way, Pain was never at Naruto's mercy. Naruto defeated the puppets and made it to the puppet master. Both of them were exhausted, but Pain had the upper hand plus another member of Akatsuki
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Old 2013-09-03, 21:09   Link #108
itachi-san314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
When Naruto let Pain/Nagato go i would have liked if he just escaped and the thing was blamed on Naruto by Danzou. Then he would have had to leave the village, to deal with the mixed emotions of his former classmates, to deal with losing Kakashi, to realize that he would have to oppose the guy whose evil plot against Nagato and his friends caused the creation of Pain and the akatsuki, etc. He could still rely on his father's advice, he could still meet with his mother when he opens the seal to tame the kyuubi.
I agree with most of this, but wanted to point out that he never would have left the village. or rather, danzo wouldn't let the kyuubi out of his sight. if danzo persuaded everyone to hate naruto based on his decision to let nagato go, then most likely naruto would have been imprisoned in konoha since the kyuubi represents their military might and danzo's all about that. naruto might even have accepted imprisonment for his decision similar to how he acccepted a beating for sasuke's sake. then of course something would have had to happen to free him after a time and things could have progressed for him again
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Old 2013-09-03, 23:33   Link #109
james0246
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Originally Posted by Monster0 View Post
So basically things go good for Naruto as if the whole universe was planned out just to make his life exciting, epic, easy. I've heard similar things said about real people.
Weren't they said condescendingly or at least negatively?

Naruto lives in a fictional universe, so of course the world acts as a gravity well around his character. Hell, this is true of a great deal of literature (the acceptance of contrivance for the sake of story is commonplace across all artistic mediums). But, the difference in Naruto is the fact that as a main character he doesn't really make mistakes or learn from said mistakes. While I do believe Naruto has matured since he was a kid (he has accepted the responsibility of protecting others, so he has to have matured), it is plainly obvious that he is still the same fool he was a kid, having never had to learn how to truly interact with others nor how to actually solve true problems/dilemmas. Naruto is a stunted character, entertaining to watch, even exciting to see succeed (or at least see the big fights he ends up in), but somewhat uninteresting because he never has to make any hard decisions beyond the obvious black-and-white dilemmas that plague under-planned fictional worlds.

btw, New chapter thread is up. Have at it with any new relevant discussions.
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Old 2013-09-05, 14:45   Link #110
the-crocodile
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Well the major defect that i give to naruto (manga) it's the incoherence of some facts (like the hyper plot twist in naruto vs pain made only because without it naruto would be defeated) I mean, with the rinnegan the supreme eye with more vision power of the three dojutsu (like sharingan and byakugan rinnegan can see clearly the chakra) nagato/pain wasn't able to see that all the rock around him were clone instead of real rock? Don't kidding please. the first thing i've think when i read the chapter was "Sasuke apply cold water on the burned area" xD
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