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Old 2013-09-03, 09:03   Link #6061
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 27
This ended like most of us predicted but it looks like this will lead to a new kind of development with Momo telling Nana about her harem plan. I didn't expect that to happen so soon (well, we're already 9 volumes in so it's exactly fast). I don't think Nana will accept the plan unless Momo comes up with an extremely convincing sales speech. We'll see. Incidentally, I liked Nana's reaction when Lala told her she wanted to kiss Rito: "but you aren't even married yet!" --- so pure! I wonder how Momo ended up like this given how innocent both of her sisters are.

Momo didn't have the courage to teach Lala about sex. That's kind of a shame... but it's better if Rito teaches her himself (yeah, as if that will ever happen...).
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Old 2013-09-03, 10:51   Link #6062
liro
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Oh man, the censorship when Lala slipped. That was the best censorship I have ever seen in a manga.
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Old 2013-09-03, 11:56   Link #6063
II Maestro
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Lala asked for a kiss and Rito kissed her in a different way.

Looks like Momo's harem plan will now start, Requiting for those who are harem candidates first.
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Old 2013-09-03, 12:02   Link #6064
Kyero Fox
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Just make it a hentai already -_- JESUS! XD
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Old 2013-09-03, 20:15   Link #6065
Starshipw
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Chapter was great fun and highly enjoyable. There was actual discernible plot development. It was also a prime example of the worst of Japanese manga which come in two flavors.

Type 1

Girl 1: We are both in the same class but we have never even talked before being caught in the rain (and/or) doing chores after class since I am the most beautiful girl in school and you are a total nerd.

Boy 1: I guess so.

Girl 1: Do you want to have sex?

Boy 1: I guess so.

Girl 1: Well that was pretty enjoyable. Do you love me now?

Boy 1: I guess so. Do you want to hold hands?

Girl 1: Eww, that would be too embarrassing.

----

Type 2

Boy A: The most beautiful girl I have ever met has moved into my house for reasons too complicated to be believed since my parents have abandoned me for reasons which should be reported to Child Protective Services.

Girl A: It seemed like a good idea at the time.

Boy A: Even though I have accidentally seen her naked twenty-eight times I can't even ask her out on a date because my bossy childhood friend has also moved in to watch over us.

Girl B: It is my duty to protect her from the pervert, who I don't like at all.

Boy A: Somehow the amply breasted class rep has also moved in.

Girl C: I am only protecting the morals of the class and it has nothing to do with how he falls down, ripping my clothes off and sticking his face in my chest or crotch.

Boy A: I stopped trying to make sense of this when the teen idol joined them and my precocious little sister, who I never mentioned before, moved back from America.

Girl D: I know this could ruin my career and cost me millions of yen, but my agent is fine with it.

Girl E: It is a sister's duty to mess up her big brother's love life. Besides a little incest will make people forget the plot holes.

Boy A: Now everyone is naked, but nothing is going to happen because... There must be a reason somewhere.

---

Both tropes completely miss the point of romance. Everything is accidental or repressed. There is no path for falling out of lust and into love. Missing is that test of courage which involves asking someone out. Where is the warmth from sitting next to the person you like? Where are the brief touches to fingers or shoulders and the awkward conversation; the surreptitious glances to see if it is going well? Most importantly, missing is the goodnight kiss which will convey a thousand texts worth of how interested they are.

The getting to know you phase is either missing or superficial. The harem master may learn if the girls can cook or do housework, but if you are never alone how do you find out what fifty years of life as a couple will be like? When do you hold hands, cuddle, laugh about things only you two know? When do soft kisses turn into tongue wrestling requiring the breath control of a pearl diver? Breasts should be touched, not because you are a clumsy oaf, but because you both want them to feel good.

In the real world the end of the date may combine the wonderful feeling from a happy evening with the frustration of stopping, unfulfilled. But that frustration holds a promise that neither a too-easy brief encounter story nor a long no-progress visible manga can match.
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Old 2013-09-03, 23:05   Link #6066
The Green One
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Actually the main problem romance themed stories have problems is due to the rabid "fanbase" who will scream bloody murder and threaten the author with a painful bloody death if their favorite character doesn't "win".

The other stuff you mentioned is a close second though.
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Old 2013-09-03, 23:44   Link #6067
CrowKenobi
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You're also forgetting that the story has to be drawn out as long as possible so that the maximum number of collected editions can be sold.
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Old 2013-09-04, 00:15   Link #6068
XFire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starshipw View Post
Chapter was great fun and highly enjoyable. There was actual discernible plot development. It was also a prime example of the worst of Japanese manga which come in two flavors.

Type 1

Girl 1: We are both in the same class but we have never even talked before being caught in the rain (and/or) doing chores after class since I am the most beautiful girl in school and you are a total nerd.

Boy 1: I guess so.

Girl 1: Do you want to have sex?

Boy 1: I guess so.

Girl 1: Well that was pretty enjoyable. Do you love me now?

Boy 1: I guess so. Do you want to hold hands?

Girl 1: Eww, that would be too embarrassing.

----

Type 2

Boy A: The most beautiful girl I have ever met has moved into my house for reasons too complicated to be believed since my parents have abandoned me for reasons which should be reported to Child Protective Services.

Girl A: It seemed like a good idea at the time.

Boy A: Even though I have accidentally seen her naked twenty-eight times I can't even ask her out on a date because my bossy childhood friend has also moved in to watch over us.

Girl B: It is my duty to protect her from the pervert, who I don't like at all.

Boy A: Somehow the amply breasted class rep has also moved in.

Girl C: I am only protecting the morals of the class and it has nothing to do with how he falls down, ripping my clothes off and sticking his face in my chest or crotch.

Boy A: I stopped trying to make sense of this when the teen idol joined them and my precocious little sister, who I never mentioned before, moved back from America.

Girl D: I know this could ruin my career and cost me millions of yen, but my agent is fine with it.

Girl E: It is a sister's duty to mess up her big brother's love life. Besides a little incest will make people forget the plot holes.

Boy A: Now everyone is naked, but nothing is going to happen because... There must be a reason somewhere.

---

Both tropes completely miss the point of romance. Everything is accidental or repressed. There is no path for falling out of lust and into love. Missing is that test of courage which involves asking someone out. Where is the warmth from sitting next to the person you like? Where are the brief touches to fingers or shoulders and the awkward conversation; the surreptitious glances to see if it is going well? Most importantly, missing is the goodnight kiss which will convey a thousand texts worth of how interested they are.

The getting to know you phase is either missing or superficial. The harem master may learn if the girls can cook or do housework, but if you are never alone how do you find out what fifty years of life as a couple will be like? When do you hold hands, cuddle, laugh about things only you two know? When do soft kisses turn into tongue wrestling requiring the breath control of a pearl diver? Breasts should be touched, not because you are a clumsy oaf, but because you both want them to feel good.

In the real world the end of the date may combine the wonderful feeling from a happy evening with the frustration of stopping, unfulfilled. But that frustration holds a promise that neither a too-easy brief encounter story nor a long no-progress visible manga can match.
Oh god, I think i just threw up from laughing so hard. Best explanation of Japanese cliche's ever.
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Old 2013-09-04, 10:15   Link #6069
Kadi
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I've been wondering... is it possible in the first place to combine a working harem with good romantic developments like the ones Starshipw mentioned? Frankly, I can't see it. Yes, a harem can have absolutely heartwarming scenes with the heroines, I even expect those. But "regular romance", where we see how the people slowly fall for each other, test the waters and and so on... Even I accept that the heroines are just in love with the protagonist pretty quickly, for more or less well-defined reasons.
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Old 2013-09-04, 10:21   Link #6070
Mars Mode
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The problem is not all relationships start like that, neither starting like that grants success in a relationship. Every kind of romance has his flavors and this is not shoujo, nor seinen, nor josei, so I do not expect anything like that in the near future.

I like the girls, and their reasons are either enough for them or not. I have seen far more nonsense relationships in the real world to let the ones in a manga bother me. This is more of a you like it or not.
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Old 2013-09-04, 18:15   Link #6071
Starshipw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadi View Post
I've been wondering... is it possible in the first place to combine a working harem with good romantic developments like the ones Starshipw mentioned? Frankly, I can't see it. Yes, a harem can have absolutely heartwarming scenes with the heroines, I even expect those. But "regular romance", where we see how the people slowly fall for each other, test the waters and and so on... Even I accept that the heroines are just in love with the protagonist pretty quickly, for more or less well-defined reasons.
The best example of a harem where relationships change and grow is Umi no Misaki.
Spoiler for Umi no Misaki:
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Old 2013-09-04, 18:35   Link #6072
Nanaya
ハイパー武器英雄
 
 
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Is this another one of those "this romance is not realistic because the reasons aren't well-defined or well thought out and are superficial" criticism festivals?

I've seen women fall in love with a lot less and given up their virginities for the most shallow of reasons. Sometimes, mere kindness is enough to do so. The same with other bros I've had. Heck, the women I've had relations with normally occurred because of very shallow reasons.

You want realistic? Rito being good looking is most of the time more than enough of a reason for women to fall for him. Then, you combine that with him almost always being there sacrificing body and mind for the girls when they're in a pinch, BAM! It's a recipe for instant wanna f*ck. This doesn't even include the fact that his dad is one famous mangaka, his mom's a rich fashion designer, he actually lives in a house in Japan, and his setting is above average in athletic ability.

If he wasn't bumbling around women all the time he sucks their tits and kisses their lower lips, he'd actually be an alpha male.

Love doesn't always start slow with lots of understanding. Most people tend to forget that when they read fiction.
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Old 2013-09-04, 18:44   Link #6073
kazzuya13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Is this another one of those "this romance is not realistic because the reasons aren't well-defined or well thought out and are superficial" criticism festivals?

I've seen women fall in love with a lot less and given up their virginities for the most shallow of reasons. Sometimes, mere kindness is enough to do so. The same with other bros I've had. Heck, the women I've had relations with normally occurred because of very shallow reasons.

You want realistic? Rito being good looking is most of the time more than enough of a reason for women to fall for him. Then, you combine that with him almost always being there sacrificing body and mind for the girls when they're in a pinch, BAM! It's a recipe for instant wanna f*ck. This doesn't even include the fact that his dad is one famous mangaka, his mom's a rich fashion designer, he actually lives in a house in Japan, and his setting is above average in athletic ability.

If he wasn't bumbling around women all the time he sucks their tits and kisses their lower lips, he'd actually be an alpha male.

Love doesn't always start slow with lots of understanding. Most people tend to forget that when they read fiction.
Yeah if you think this is shallow then take a good look at reality. Some girls would willingly give up their bodies just to get ahead you know. Like joining a social group or more so in a fraternity.
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Old 2013-09-04, 20:27   Link #6074
Starshipw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Is this another one of those "this romance is not realistic because the reasons aren't well-defined or well thought out and are superficial" criticism festivals?

I've seen women fall in love with a lot less and given up their virginities for the most shallow of reasons. Sometimes, mere kindness is enough to do so. The same with other bros I've had. Heck, the women I've had relations with normally occurred because of very shallow reasons.

You want realistic? Rito being good looking is most of the time more than enough of a reason for women to fall for him. Then, you combine that with him almost always being there sacrificing body and mind for the girls when they're in a pinch, BAM! It's a recipe for instant wanna f*ck. This doesn't even include the fact that his dad is one famous mangaka, his mom's a rich fashion designer, he actually lives in a house in Japan, and his setting is above average in athletic ability.

If he wasn't bumbling around women all the time he sucks their tits and kisses their lower lips, he'd actually be an alpha male.

Love doesn't always start slow with lots of understanding. Most people tend to forget that when they read fiction.
That is not love, that is lust The point is not that girls can be as interested in having sex as guys. On average, for every guy having relations there is also a girl. It is also not unreasonable for a guy meeting an available girl to not desire sex for moral, religious, upbringing, shyness, cultural or fidelity grounds. The point is the all or nothing nature of the medium. Take this chapter:

Girl: I want to try kissing so I will pop into the bathtub naked.

Boy (while naked girl is massaging him all over with her body): Let us debate the implications of whether a person should reserve a kiss for their true love rather than their fiance.

I think the primary discussion should be whether it is appropriate for the girls to pop in and set on his face when they have not decided on an intimate relationship. After they have eliminated the sexual assaults, then he can discuss asking the girl he likes to go out.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned or maybe it is a cultural thing but it seems kissing or being seen holding hands should be more prevalent and less embarrassing than a trip to a love hotel.
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Old 2013-09-05, 01:19   Link #6075
Krono
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanaya View Post
Is this another one of those "this romance is not realistic because the reasons aren't well-defined or well thought out and are superficial" criticism festivals?
No, I'd say it's more a case of "this romance is not realistic because they fail to engage in any of the common hallmarks of a relationship."

It's a common problem in shounen series that have romance, or a romantic subplot. It's pretty typical to spend an entire series doing "will they or won't they", or "can't spit it out". The heroine spends the entire series too shy to "confess her love" aka tell the hero she's attracted to him, or if she isn't shy about making her attraction apparent, the hero refuses to acknowledge it whether deliberately, or by being dense, until the end of the series. So it often takes the entire series to get to the point of both characters acknowledging mutual attraction, if enough time is spent on the subplot. Case in point, it taking to the end of the original To-Love-ru for mutual attraction to be admitted between Rito and Lala.

Which brings us to the problem at hand. Even when the hero has a designated love interest from the start, or they manage to get to the stage of acknowledging mutual attraction relatively early, it doesn't get developed any further than that. Things like spending time talking on the phone, just enjoying one another's company alone, going on dates, holding hands, kissing, cuddling, sleeping together in the literal sense, much less in the figurative sense, are scare or absent. Any attempts made in those directions get interrupted. Either by more mainline plot events, competing love interests, younger siblings, etc.

The end result is what the past couple of chapters brought up. Rito and Lala have acknowledged they love each other, and that's it. Lala's hardly been in the series, and there's been almost no interaction between the two. Virtually nothing to indicate that they're technically dating, lovers, engaged, whatever. Someone reading a few random chapters from the middle of the series as their first exposure to the series could be forgiven to mistaking Lala as being the only girl not romantically interested in Rito.

That's why the romance draws fire as being unrealistic. It establishes relationships, then avoids developing the relationships anywhere beyond friendship as much as it can.
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Old 2013-09-05, 04:24   Link #6076
Used Can
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^To be fair, Rito was never too interested in Lala. Sure, he grew to like her, but by the end of the first series it was still clear no girl made his heart race as hard as Haruna did.
By the end of the first series, had Rito managed to confess to Haruna, she'd likely had done so as well, and that'd have been where it ended, because neither of them would have likely been keen on the idea of a threesome even less a harem. They would have been together, and TLR would have been over, unless we'd have got an AU-spinoff or and spinoff with a new MC.

The issue in the series, so far, has been that if we assume the author plans on having Rito end up with someone other than Haruna, or aiming to build a harem, we're yet to see any actual change in Rito's mentality would point into that direction. At best, we've had scenes in which girls like Lala, Run or Momo have made his heart race for a bit, but we're yet to see any reaction from him that suggests he might have started reconsidering his feelings for Haruna, or that he's started falling for some other girl more, or that he wants a harem.
As of yet, as far as we know, Haruna still is the girl he likes the most.

So, Rito has made no progress with Haruna, because that'd be an end game. Yet, at the same time, even if we say that in Darkness more girls have fallen for him and that girls that were already in love with him have fallen even harder for him, as far as Rito is concerned, we've hardly seen much development, or at least, a development that actually has an effect on the plot and moves things in different directions.

I've been enjoying Darkness a lot, easily much more than the first manga, but it's clear as day that they're dragging things as much as they can, and in the previous manga that led to a stale story, with only entertaining chapters every now and then.
So, I'm hoping Hasemi decides on a path already and develop the story into it - be it a single girl path or an actual harem path, I want to start seeing developments that actually takes us into that direction.
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Old 2013-09-05, 04:52   Link #6077
ImperialFlameGod8190
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
^To be fair, Rito was never too interested in Lala. Sure, he grew to like her, but by the end of the first series it was still clear no girl made his heart race as hard as Haruna did.
By the end of the first series, had Rito managed to confess to Haruna, she'd likely had done so as well, and that'd have been where it ended, because neither of them would have likely been keen on the idea of a threesome even less a harem. They would have been together, and TLR would have been over, unless we'd have got an AU-spinoff or and spinoff with a new MC.

The issue in the series, so far, has been that if we assume the author plans on having Rito end up with someone other than Haruna, or aiming to build a harem, we're yet to see any actual change in Rito's mentality would point into that direction. At best, we've had scenes in which girls like Lala, Run or Momo have made his heart race for a bit, but we're yet to see any reaction from him that suggests he might have started reconsidering his feelings for Haruna, or that he's started falling for some other girl more, or that he wants a harem.
As of yet, as far as we know, Haruna still is the girl he likes the most.

So, Rito has made no progress with Haruna, because that'd be an end game. Yet, at the same time, even if we say that in Darkness more girls have fallen for him and that girls that were already in love with him have fallen even harder for him, as far as Rito is concerned, we've hardly seen much development, or at least, a development that actually has an effect on the plot and moves things in different directions.

I've been enjoying Darkness a lot, easily much more than the first manga, but it's clear as day that they're dragging things as much as they can, and in the previous manga that led to a stale story, with only entertaining chapters every now and then.
So, I'm hoping Hasemi decides on a path already and develop the story into it - be it a single girl path or an actual harem path, I want to start seeing developments that actually takes us into that direction.
THANK YOU this is what I've been saying all along
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Old 2013-09-05, 05:46   Link #6078
Nanaya
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Ah, I really hate long responses that I just have to respond to.

"this romance is not realistic because they fail to engage in any of the common hallmarks of a relationship."
What? That people can be shy? What's unrealistic about that? Before I had the confidence to actually ask women out, I spent an entire two years pining over a classmate in high school being shy as f*ck and not admitting it until the last few months of the second year. So there's already an "unrealistic" thing that happens a lot, because not only me, but I've also met other men and women who were also "slow" on the uptake. A lot of people in my school were also like that.

Also, sometimes people are hesitant to say things like these, because it might ruin their friendship. You are happy being able to talk with so and so girl, or so and so guy. But what if they said "no" to your proposal? Talking to them becomes super awkward. Friends are the hardest to ask out on dates, because of the chance of friend-zone or complete separation. It's way easier to ask out some random woman at a bar, at work, or at a convention.

To add, Rito always knew Lala loved him. It was Rito coming to grips with his traditional feelings with Haruna and his newfound love for Lala that formed the ending of TLR, which is now the main foundation for TLRD.

While Rito knows Lala loves him, there is a reason he chooses not to do full-lover stuff with her: HARUNA. He thinks doing so might completely sink his chances with Haruna if he goes full lovey-dovey with Lala. He also doesn't want to treat Lala like some second choice winner as he respects her too much for that.

When you complain about the "realism" of TLR's relationships, please understand that:
1. Relationships in real life are often formed from more shallow reasons.
2. It is equally as hard in real life to confess to your "friend" that you want to bang them because of risk of losing said friend.
3. The things you know, most characters in TLR do not know. Like, almost no one knows that Rito is in love with Lala, as in actually in love with her.

Rito has not yet been primed for this task. Which is what Momo is trying to force into fruition with her Harem Plan. That said, a lot of Rito's misgivings also stem from the fact that his main love interest is also an Earthling that would likely have problems with a polygamous relationship. That is also something Momo has to take care of.

The path to a real harem ending is long and hard. You can't just suddenly take advantage of the women close to you out of fear that this could put off the main girl you actually like. Wanting immediate rewards for something as complicated as getting a real harem ending that actually means something is foolhardy.

I've read Love Junkies and we have there a guy who immediately screwed girls who were attracted to him, and that only led to scarred egos, women who felt really bad, and a long story of dropping one woman over the other only to be dropped later. That is basically the thing that would most likely to happen if Rito was just actively doing a girl here and there without a harem in place, especially if they're not his first choice AKA Haruna.
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Old 2013-09-14, 01:31   Link #6079
wingman32x
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So for the first time in a very long time, I fell behind in reading TLR. Read 33-35.

So I finally got to see the conclusion to the posessed sword mini-arc. I thought it was okay for the most part. Rin's behavior at the end was cute. I've always kind of liked her character.

The two chapters with Lala were great, but it was the typical TLR format of progression then regression shortly after that. Basically things cancelled themselves out for now. At least Nana finally knows what's going on. I cannot wait until the next chapter when she hears about the harem plan.

Oh god, that special chapter. I knew we were going to get stuff like this once Momo and Nemisis started their little rivalry. It's going to be awesome seeing them try to 1-up each other like they did here. I highly doubt this is their last little competition. Poor Momo set up again due to Nemesis escaping just in time. I love how there's a character that really makes Momo flustered.

Next chapter should be great.
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Old 2013-09-15, 12:47   Link #6080
Miraluka
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Excuse me guys, anyone has a better resolution of this picture?
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