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Old 2013-09-05, 15:28   Link #101
Dengar
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Oh it's not rocket science. To me, "obvious" means "absolutely no shred of doubt". It's possible that Oda actually didn't mean anything by it. It's also possible that Oda is a troll. I can't say either of those things is true, but you can't say that they aren't either.

So long as a possibility remains a possibility, it will never become fact.

Writers also say "Leave it up to the fans to decide" whenever they don't intend to touch an issue ever again.

And in fact, every writer worth their salt prefers that the audience decide how the ambiguous parts play out. Unless they decide to no longer make it ambiguous.
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Old 2013-09-05, 16:04   Link #102
Whitemoon648
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Oh it's not rocket science. To me, "obvious" means "absolutely no shred of doubt". It's possible that Oda actually didn't mean anything by it. It's also possible that Oda is a troll. I can't say either of those things is true, but you can't say that they aren't either.

So long as a possibility remains a possibility, it will never become fact.

Writers also say "Leave it up to the fans to decide" whenever they don't intend to touch an issue ever again.

And in fact, every writer worth their salt prefers that the audience decide how the ambiguous parts play out. Unless they decide to no longer make it ambiguous.
We just see this from different perspective and point of view . Which is fine. I see and respect your points ( definitely a possibility), but i am still leaning toward my own opinion.

I personally don't see this as Oda trolling fans ( if sabo comes back). Oda's writing style is actually centered around giving subtle hints many chapters previous to when they happen. I see the signs and hints there.

----

A bit less relevant:

Another sign/hint i see of Sabo being Kaido is actually Kaido trying to go marineford. Yes the Marines said he was after Whitebeard but yet again it is the say marines/wg that distort information all over the place and generally get them wrong ( One of many examples is Buggy the clown).

If Sabo indeed was kaido, wouldn't this resolve the discrepancy as why Sabo never tried to save ace? If he was kaido then he did try but was stopped by shanks ( w.e the reasons shanks had, i won't get into that).

Last edited by Whitemoon648; 2013-09-05 at 16:25.
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Old 2013-09-05, 17:18   Link #103
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Nice chapter. As anticipated, Luffy's gonna gather more and more allies (next up will be the mummies).

I liked the conversation between Blackbeard and Luffy and Blackbeard's comment about Aokiji which peeked most of the people's interest.

About that Sabo argument: Nothing's proven but there are simply too much hints to overlook them.
What Oda said is natural. Of course he won't deny or confirm Sabo's death... either way the tension would be gone.

I'm really looking forward to the upcoming chapters. Luffy's reappearance in the public is gonna hit big time!
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Old 2013-09-05, 17:19   Link #104
Randrak42
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I dunno why but the whole Kaido = Sabo thing just makes me laugh...
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Old 2013-09-05, 17:33   Link #105
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
I dunno why but the whole Kaido = Sabo thing just makes me laugh...
Well I think this "Sabo hype" may have something to do with a certain "reveal" that happened in Naruto a few chapters ago...


My prediction: Kaido is not Sabo and everyone will then start to say:

"That revolutionary guy that was with Robin shortly before the time skip must be Sabo after all!"


I called it!
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Old 2013-09-05, 18:12   Link #106
Randrak42
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Sabo used to be Dofla...Sabo used to be Law...Sabo also used to be Crocodile...

Every Arc there's one or two theories of who Sabo is...and they all sound ridiculous to me. But hey, that might be just me and who knows, one day they might finally be right.
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Old 2013-09-05, 18:27   Link #107
GreyZone
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I think that there has not been even one case in One Piece, where someone reappeard after a very long time, without being recognised by fans or being immidietly (within a few chapters) revealed...
Alvida reappeard as a slim pirate but she was introduced immidietly. The only one that is arguable would be Rayleigh.
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Old 2013-09-05, 18:34   Link #108
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Quote:
Oh it's not rocket science. To me, "obvious" means "absolutely no shred of doubt". It's possible that Oda actually didn't mean anything by it. It's also possible that Oda is a troll. I can't say either of those things is true, but you can't say that they aren't either.

So long as a possibility remains a possibility, it will never become fact.
Are you bloody serious? No-one is denying the possibility that Sabo may be dead.

But that is a slim possibility because of how story telling works. Sabo as a character has served practically no purpose for the amount of time that Oda has wasted introducing his character. There is no reason for him to be dead especially in a manga where it takes quite a lot to die (not even exaggerating). What, he was thrown overboard and shot at..in a manga where someone can survive the equivalent of a nuke to the face? Dragon definitely rescued someone JUST after he was thrown overboard..what, you think that is a coincidence or something? That there is actually a possibility that it might be another character?

In addition to that, there have been so many hints that he is alive. The cup at Ace's grave, the cover where he was shown as an adult alongside Luffy and Ace etc.

Everything points towards him being alive. And STILL you don't think its obvious?
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Last edited by monir; 2013-09-06 at 03:31.
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Old 2013-09-05, 19:56   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
If Sabo indeed was kaido, wouldn't this resolve the discrepancy as why Sabo never tried to save ace? If he was kaido then he did try but was stopped by shanks ( w.e the reasons shanks had, i won't get into that).
In addition to all the other points that have been mentioned, from the shadowed glimpses we've seen of Kaido, he doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to Sabo at all. If Sabo were alive (I'm not denying he is), he would be 22 years-old, whereas Kaido looks far older than this.

In fact, Kaido has been built up with words and images to resemble a middle-aged, morally questionable antagonist. Can anyone envision Sabo, who was disgusted with the Goa Kingdom, as someone who would either condone or ignore the darker aspects that go into making smile?



And speaking of Kaido, has anyone mentioned the possibility of him being being a non-human that ate the hito-hito no mi? Or perhaps a mythological chimera zoan? That would explain his moniker.
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Old 2013-09-05, 20:08   Link #110
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I don't believe that sabo is kaido. I think he joined dragon and the revolutionaries but suffered amnesia from when his boat was attacked. Sabo is like a brother to ace and luffy. I can't see him as the type who would hide his identity from them for several years.
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Old 2013-09-05, 20:12   Link #111
Randrak42
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Well he couldn't have eaten the Hito Hito since Chopper is still...well...alive. though I suppose it could have been a variation like Sengoku.

I'm betting Kaido's just a strong human with a Myth Zoan, his theme and that of his crew seems to be animal/zoan...now what kind of Zoan, that remains to be seen as it could really be anything. I'll be honest, it would be super badass if Kaido had eaten something like the Chihuahua or Poodle fruit or something non-threatening like that and still managed to become one of the biggest monsters in the world.

BTW, to the Kaido = Sabo theorists...Moria was a rival of Kaido before he lost his crew, an event that happened over 10 years before the start of the series. Sabo should be around 22 if he's alive and 10 years ago he should still be with Ace and Luffy. So...yea, take what you will from that.
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Old 2013-09-05, 20:45   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Veviticus View Post
I don't believe that sabo is kaido. I think he joined dragon and the revolutionaries but suffered amnesia from when his boat was attacked. Sabo is like a brother to ace and luffy. I can't see him as the type who would hide his identity from them for several years.
The thing is, if Sabo survived, he has no reason to believe that Ace and Luffy thought he died. He left a note telling them that he was leaving, and he didn't know one of the bandits was at port to see the incident. As far as he knows, Luffy and Ace are in the mountains, believing he made it out. Also, considering that he asked Dragon for a favor, it could have had something to do with faking his death. That way, his father would no longer use Luffy and Ace to force his return.

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though I suppose it could have been a variation like Sengoku.
Sorry, that's what I meant. <facepalm> I still think it would be awesome if he is a chimera zoan that can change different parts of his body into different beasts.

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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
I'll be honest, it would be super badass if Kaido had eaten something like the Chihuahua or Poodle fruit or something non-threatening like that and still managed to become one of the biggest monsters in the world.
Good grief. If that happens, I'd probably laugh harder than seeing Barto in this chapter.
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Old 2013-09-05, 20:48   Link #113
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BTW, going back to Bart, I missed this post from Randrak earlier:


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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
The whole thing with Barty the Fanboy will probably end badly. Remember that Barty is kind of a bad guy, even in this chapter we saw how he handles situations and even the the short flashback with the enemy's pinky and so on. His style does not match the Strawhats at all and if Luffy witnessed him being a dick to innocent people I doubt he'll just stand by and let him.
In my eyes Barty's fanboyism will go one of two ways:
- He stays a fanboy, Luffy doesn't care/realize he's evil and is adopted under the Strawhat banner;
- Luffy calls Barty on his evil shit, Barty doesn't like it and the love turns to hate;

I dunno, I don't see things that way at all. Honestly, I figured that his fanboyism would basically turn him into a blind follower who misinterprets nearly every single one of Luffy's actions, much like Buggy's followers at Marineford. For example:


*Luffy sees Barto beating up/threatening innocent bystanders*

Luffy: Hey, knock that off! Want me to kick your ass!?

Bart: (Thinking) Oh, I get it! Senpai is telling me to not bother with these small fry and focus on the big fish from now on instead! As expected from the man I admire! (Speaking) My apologies, sir! I promise I'll never bother these people again, so please don't hate me ~



^Well, something like that, anyway. Also, I still don't really get the impression that Bart is as rotten as his reputation makes him out to be. If anything, he seems to be similar to Eustass Kid in the sense that he might acknowledge that he's no angel, but still has enough moral sense to know that there's even worse scum out there (I'm thinking of the scene where he showed disgust at all the people who ran away from his fake bomb in chapter 706).
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Old 2013-09-05, 21:01   Link #114
Randrak42
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^You do have a point, that is a possibility I didn't think about and one of the most likely...though I don't know if Oda will pull the same move twice since he already did that with Buggy's group.

But it reminded me of Angel Densetsu (an awesome manga that everyone should check) where the big evil isn't really evil and his actions are all misinterpreted by his self-proclaimed underlings. I'd be down with this path to be honest.
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Old 2013-09-05, 21:07   Link #115
Veviticus
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Originally Posted by BPD Renegade View Post
The thing is, if Sabo survived, he has no reason to believe that Ace and Luffy thought he died. He left a note telling them that he was leaving, and he didn't know one of the bandits was at port to see the incident. As far as he knows, Luffy and Ace are in the mountains, believing he made it out. Also, considering that he asked Dragon for a favor, it could have had something to do with faking his death. That way, his father would no longer use Luffy and Ace to force his return.
With both Ace and Luffy having high bounties, Sabo would know about it. And if he was in the seas, he would have made contact with Ace. He also wouldn't need help to fake his death because the entire town witnessed his boat getting blown up.
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Old 2013-09-05, 21:55   Link #116
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With both Ace and Luffy having high bounties, Sabo would know about it. And if he was in the seas, he would have made contact with Ace. He also wouldn't need help to fake his death because the entire town witnessed his boat getting blown up.
True, it would be weird if he didn't try to meet Ace at some point during his three years at sea. As for faking his death, it seems like a big coincidence for him to choose the exact day the tenryuubito arrives to depart, that particular port, and that Dragon would just happen to be in that area after leaving the Gray Terminal. But who knows?
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Old 2013-09-05, 23:15   Link #117
Whitemoon648
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Before i reply to quotes i would like to say people who made theses theories,
Spoiler for Major spoiler bleach covered in anime already:

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Us theorist don't really care if we are ridiculed by others for making theories. we are used to it.
Also we are used to hearing people call authors like Kishi/Oda trolls/bad writers because they ( people who are doing the ridiculing) couldn't see hints/signs given to them to analyze. after all to these people if they don't see those signs/hints they don't exist and if any one ever make these theories they might even insult them.

Note: i am not referring to any one particular, just stating an increasing general trend i have seen over the years that i have been at animesuki forum ( miss the old animesuki/and members). Also the guys i am quoting here have been very respectful in their arguments.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Veviticus View Post
I don't believe that sabo is kaido. I think he joined dragon and the revolutionaries but suffered amnesia from when his boat was attacked. Sabo is like a brother to ace and luffy. I can't see him as the type who would hide his identity from them for several years.
That is definitely a great theory and a strong contender possibility. Me saying Sabo is Kaido is just one of the few theories that i have in this regard. And no i don't just say sabo is X or any number of people. For each person that i theorize to be Sabo, i have my own evidence and hints from the series that in my eyes exist. My theories are based on real (subtle and some not) hints and signs given by the authors in the series. Just because some people don't see it, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

We are given hints and signs in the series. It is up to us to link them in different ways and theorize ways the story could ( keyword: could) progress. I have been pretty accurate in my theories and this isn't the first time people have ridiculed me to be proven wrong ( it has happened a lot).

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Originally Posted by BPD Renegade View Post
In addition to all the other points that have been mentioned, from the shadowed glimpses we've seen of Kaido, he doesn't seem to bear any resemblance to Sabo at all. If Sabo were alive (I'm not denying he is), he would be 22 years-old, whereas Kaido looks far older than this.

In fact, Kaido has been built up with words and images to resemble a middle-aged, morally questionable antagonist. Can anyone envision Sabo, who was disgusted with the Goa Kingdom, as someone who would either condone or ignore the darker aspects that go into making smile?



And speaking of Kaido, has anyone mentioned the possibility of him being being a non-human that ate the hito-hito no mi? Or perhaps a mythological chimera zoan? That would explain his moniker.
The whole image of Kaido is what is portrayed of him mostly by the marines. We don't know if he is really a bad guy. And even if he might be, he might have changed his views after the attack from that celestial dragon guy and other events. Major characters change ( dramatically) all the time in anime and manga world.

As for the looks that can be explained. Shadow figures doesn't always represent how the said person actually look when shown.

At the same time this could be result of a devil fruit power. We know the elder stars said Marco and Kaido could defeat BB. What does Marco has? ability to heal from wounds after being beaten. Most likely Kaido's power allow him to heal ( maybe at the cost of his age/looks). It is a common thing in anime/manga that heal powers age you.
Maybe dragon gave him this devil fruit power to heal injuries and save his life after being shot and wounded that heavily.

These are just few possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Well he couldn't have eaten the Hito Hito since Chopper is still...well...alive. though I suppose it could have been a variation like Sengoku.

I'm betting Kaido's just a strong human with a Myth Zoan, his theme and that of his crew seems to be animal/zoan...now what kind of Zoan, that remains to be seen as it could really be anything. I'll be honest, it would be super badass if Kaido had eaten something like the Chihuahua or Poodle fruit or something non-threatening like that and still managed to become one of the biggest monsters in the world.

BTW, to the Kaido = Sabo theorists...Moria was a rival of Kaido before he lost his crew, an event that happened over 10 years before the start of the series. Sabo should be around 22 if he's alive and 10 years ago he should still be with Ace and Luffy. So...yea, take what you will from that.
I already addressed the age and power issue in previous posts. So i won't repeat it here.

As him having Myth zoan i agree with you as a big possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Sabo used to be Dofla...Sabo used to be Law...Sabo also used to be Crocodile...

Every Arc there's one or two theories of who Sabo is...and they all sound ridiculous to me. But hey, that might be just me and who knows, one day they might finally be right.
Sabo could be law. There definitely hints/signs for that path as well. But i won't argue about it in this thread. Actually this will be my last post about Sabo theories in this thread.

I just wanted to clarify myself and i think this post has done that.

Last edited by Whitemoon648; 2013-09-05 at 23:36.
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Old 2013-09-05, 23:20   Link #118
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The only person that resembles Sabo's facial structure and hat, is the guy that shot Baby5 and also a member of the Donquixote family. His mechanical body parts and covered face is probably the result of the explosion, when the celestial dragon shot him with a cannon sized rifle.
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Old 2013-09-05, 23:53   Link #119
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
I already addressed the age and power issue in previous posts. So i won't repeat it here.

As him having Myth zoan i agree with you as a big possibility.
Sorry about that, I wasn't checking the thread when you made that post.

Anyway, after reading it I see that you make some points about the age but frankly in my honest opinion...there's a lot of reaching involved.

Let's do the math:

Moria lost his crew and then met Hogback some 12 years ago (with the timeskip).
Luffy is currently 19.
Luffy met Shanks ate the fruit when he was 7.
Luffy met Shanks at around the same time Moria met Hogback (19-12=7).
Luffy met Ace and Sabo some time later (he looked physically older but even if it was in the same year that's still 12 years ago).

Sabo would have had the accident at the very least a few months after meeting Luffy, at the very least after Moria had lost his crew and met Hogback.

This makes it improbable that Kaido could have been Sabo...as he was with Ace playing runaway at around the same time Kaido had a rivalry with Moria.
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Old 2013-09-06, 00:26   Link #120
Whitemoon648
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Sorry about that, I wasn't checking the thread when you made that post.

Anyway, after reading it I see that you make some points about the age but frankly in my honest opinion...there's a lot of reaching involved.

Let's do the math:

Moria lost his crew and then met Hogback some 12 years ago (with the timeskip).
Luffy is currently 19.
Luffy met Shanks ate the fruit when he was 7.
Luffy met Shanks at around the same time Moria met Hogback (19-12=7).
Luffy met Ace and Sabo some time later (he looked physically older but even if it was in the same year that's still 12 years ago).

Sabo would have had the accident at the very least a few months after meeting Luffy, at the very least after Moria had lost his crew and met Hogback.

This makes it improbable that Kaido could have been Sabo...as he was with Ace playing runaway at around the same time Kaido had a rivalry with Moria.
He would have fought moria at the age of 10-11 . But look we don't even know how strong moria was 10 years prior to fighting luffy . He was relatively weak when he fought against luffy and co and one of the weakest at marineford. He was most likely even weaker when fought kaido . Also don't forget rob lucci was kicking ass at 13 in new world without df powers ( side character relative to sabo), and actually people like brown beard were at new world. My point is moriah was probably a weak brown beard level pirate who understimated new world . This point is actually even touched upon by moria himself .
But any ways If you want to continue this discussion just send me a visitor pm. Cheers .
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