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Old 2013-09-06, 00:38   Link #121
Randrak42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
He would have fought moria at the age of 10-11 . But look we don't even know how strong moria was 10 years prior to fighting luffy . He was relatively weak when he fought against luffy and co and one of the weakest at marineford. He was most likely even weaker when fought kaido . Also don't forget rob lucci was kicking ass at 13 in new world without df powers ( side character relative to sabo), and actually people like brown beard were at new world. My point is moriah was probably a weak brown beard level pirate who understimated new world . This point is actually even touched upon by moria himself .
But any ways If you want to continue this discussion just send me a visitor pm. Cheers .
This is my last post on the matter as well anyway.

Moria's strength doesn't matter one bit, the numbers just don't add up pure and simple. Sabo was with Ace at the time Moria lost his crew and he was likely still with his parents (if not already with Ace) around the time Moria and Kaido had a rivalry. It's ridiculous and inconceivable to look at the numbers and think Sabo could still be this big NW pirate at around this time, then come back to EB to be with Ace and Luffy for a bit, then be blown up, saved by Dragon and go back to being the NW pirate as if nothing happened. It's simply illogical.

Is Sabo alive? Possibly...quite likely even.
Is Sabo secretly Kaido? Possible...but Oda would need some ridiculous and serious retconing (the kind that could ruin a series) or allow gaping and glaring plot holes to make that happen. So...I'll go with No.

I'll just await to see the next arc's theory of who Sabo secretly is.
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Old 2013-09-06, 00:59   Link #122
Whitemoon648
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
This is my last post on the matter as well anyway.

Moria's strength doesn't matter one bit, the numbers just don't add up pure and simple. Sabo was with Ace at the time Moria lost his crew and he was likely still with his parents (if not already with Ace) around the time Moria and Kaido had a rivalry. It's ridiculous and inconceivable to look at the numbers and think Sabo could still be this big NW pirate at around this time, then come back to EB to be with Ace and Luffy for a bit, then be blown up, saved by Dragon and go back to being the NW pirate as if nothing happened. It's simply illogical.

Is Sabo alive? Possibly...quite likely even.
Is Sabo secretly Kaido? Possible...but Oda would need some ridiculous and serious retconing (the kind that could ruin a series) or allow gaping and glaring plot holes to make that happen. So...I'll go with No.

I'll just await to see the next arc's theory of who Sabo secretly is.
You are not fully reading what i am writing . Which is ok. yes let's leave it at that. But age wise it does match, just that If Kaido is Sabo he didn't have much training ( maybe a few months) before defeating Moriah.

Luffy defeated Moriah at age 17+ , Moriah created Zombies for ten years after his defeat. So he lost at around when luffy was 7 and Sabo was 10 ( the year sabo supposedly died). So Yes few months of training only under Revolutionaries/dragon and couple that with a strong devil fruit power, could make a 10/11 years old person in one piece in defeating some one like brownbeard level. Chopper was only 15 years old without much training when he took part in fights alongside strawhats and won a few battle of his own at new world. Age doesn't matter.
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Old 2013-09-06, 01:57   Link #123
paradox13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
You are not fully reading what i am writing . Which is ok. yes let's leave it at that. But age wise it does match, just that If Kaido is Sabo he didn't have much training ( maybe a few months) before defeating Moriah.

Luffy defeated Moriah at age 17+ , Moriah created Zombies for ten years after his defeat. So he lost at around when luffy was 7 and Sabo was 10 ( the year sabo supposedly died). So Yes few months of training only under Revolutionaries/dragon and couple that with a strong devil fruit power, could make a 10/11 years old person in one piece in defeating some one like brownbeard level. Chopper was only 15 years old without much training when he took part in fights alongside strawhats and won a few battle of his own at new world. Age doesn't matter.
Not directly replying to your post, but to your 'theory' in general.

Moria became a Shichibukai. He had a big reputation even before being defeated by Kaidou. He wasn't a 'Brownbeard' level pirate. I don't even know how you came up with that assumption. Brownbeard and Moria are on entirely different levels, and Luffy had a lot of help in defeating him. In fact, there are many who believe Moria was even more powerful 10 years ago than he is now (since he is so fat and lazy now).

Moria would not be appointed to the Shichibukai if he was defeated by a 10 year old. And a 13 year old Lucci raping random fodder is completely different from a 10 year old who had a few months of training defeating a shichibukai level pirate.

The problem with your 'theory' is that it doesn't make sense with the evidence presented to us in the manga. It is completely based in fantasy, hence why people are arguing against it. The logic you use is faulty (how can you equate a shichibukai being defeated and having his crew massacred by a child whose had a few months training with a government trained assassin child prodigy killing a bunch of no name fodder is beyond me). How does Sabo travel from East Blue all the way to the New World in a single year? On Dragon's ship? And Dragon just let a child leave on a whim? Obviously he had plans for him or else he wouldn't have rescued him (and according to you, allegedly trained him) in the first place. How can you equate Moria to Brownbeard when they are obviously worlds apart strength wise? There is nothing in your theory that makes sense.

Do you see the problem now?
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Last edited by paradox13; 2013-09-06 at 03:48. Reason: Redundant words removed!
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Old 2013-09-06, 03:36   Link #124
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Are you bloody serious? No-one is denying the possibility that Sabo may be dead.

But that is a slim possibility because of how story telling works. Sabo as a character has served practically no purpose for the amount of time that Oda has wasted introducing his character. There is no reason for him to be dead especially in a manga where it takes quite a lot to die (not even exaggerating). What, he was thrown overboard and shot at..in a manga where someone can survive the equivalent of a nuke to the face? Dragon definitely rescued someone JUST after he was thrown overboard..what, you think that is a coincidence or something? That there is actually a possibility that it might be another character?

In addition to that, there have been so many hints that he is alive. The cup at Ace's grave, the cover where he was shown as an adult alongside Luffy and Ace etc.

Everything points towards him being alive. And STILL you don't think its obvious?
Don't talk to me like I'm saying Sabo can't possibly be alive, cos I'm not.

Because he CAN possibly be alive. But that's just a possibility.

Possibility =/= fact =/= obvious.

Spoiler for example:
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Old 2013-09-06, 03:47   Link #125
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Don't talk to me like I'm saying Sabo can't possibly be alive, cos I'm not.

Because he CAN possibly be alive. But that's just a possibility.

Possibility =/= fact =/= obvious.

Spoiler for example:
I think that there is a 80% probability that Sabo is alive. Not sure if that would merit the usage of 'obvious' in your books. Would you agree with the probability?
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Old 2013-09-06, 03:51   Link #126
Dengar
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I'm sorry, maybe you'll think I'm weird for this, but I'm not arguing probabilities when this is about a narrative. He either is alive or he isn't, and we won't know whether he is or not until he appears (or the story is over without him appearing), I cannot put a percentage on that.

To humor your question however, it's not obvious unless it's 100%.

I've had the same stance during the whole "Tobito" fiasco, and I still do.
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Old 2013-09-06, 04:02   Link #127
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'm sorry, maybe you'll think I'm weird for this, but I'm not arguing probabilities when this is about a narrative. He either is alive or he isn't, and we won't know whether he is or not until he appears (or the story is over without him appearing), I cannot put a percentage on that.

To humor your question however, it's not obvious unless it's 100%.

I've had the same stance during the whole "Tobito" fiasco, and I still do.
Well, if that's the case, then 90% of the discussion on these forums are a waste of time. The very nature of speculation is that it is uncertain. If you will not talk about something until it is 100% certain, then there is very little you can talk about.

In fact practically nothing is for certain in life and in One Piece. How do you know you're not dreaming that you actually exist? There is a chapter in the Zhuangzi which relates the story of how Zhuangi dreamed he was a butterfly, and he wondered whether he was actually a butterfly that was dreaming he was human or a human dreaming he was a butterfly.

How do you know that Whitebeard has died? What if the Whitebeard in the manga was actually Gol D Roger masquerading as Whitebeard? Isn't that technically possible?

We can only talk in probabilities because nothing is certain in life.
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Old 2013-09-06, 04:04   Link #128
Dengar
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I find it interesting that you suddenly dediced that I am against speculation. I never said any such thing.

Not only that, but in your attempt to glorify speculation, you just proved that there is no 100% certainty, thereby contradicting your earlier statement that it was certain.
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Old 2013-09-06, 04:30   Link #129
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Well, if that's the case, then 90% of the discussion on these forums are a waste of time. The very nature of speculation is that it is uncertain. If you will not talk about something until it is 100% certain, then there is very little you can talk about.
The problem isn't speculation.
Speculation is what makes the whole thing interessting and keeps the forums running.

The real problem starts when people come and state their personal theories as facts.

A theory isn't a fact! It may become a fact later, but until it's proved, it's just a theory. And that is the problem.
Sabo beeing alive is a theory. One that's very likely, but since it's not confirmed it's still a theory.
Kaido beeing Sabo is a theory as well. Not as likely as the one before, but it may still become a fact.

People just need to understand the difference between confirmed facts and guesses.
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Old 2013-09-06, 04:41   Link #130
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Technically, use of the word "Theory" is wrong. It's more of a speculation or hypothesis than a theory.
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Old 2013-09-06, 05:22   Link #131
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Great now we are arguing about semantics.

Quote:
A theory isn't a fact! It may become a fact later, but until it's proved, it's just a theory. And that is the problem.
Sabo beeing alive is a theory. One that's very likely, but since it's not confirmed it's still a theory.
Kaido beeing Sabo is a theory as well. Not as likely as the one before, but it may still become a fact.
I agree with this.

I never said that Sabo being alive was a fact. I think it will become a fact some time in the future and I think it is quite obvious from the way that Oda has been portraying him and the situation.
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Old 2013-09-06, 05:37   Link #132
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And yet your choice of words sounds very factual, not to mention you call out anyone who casts doubt on how "obvious" it is.
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Old 2013-09-06, 06:50   Link #133
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I don't think I've used the term 'fact' once in my posts.
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Old 2013-09-06, 06:55   Link #134
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Chapter 720
Not a bad chapter. Kinda hope Cavendish gets the Mera Mera No Mi. But I see Cavendish winning D Block but Luffy winning the fruit and giving it to Rebecca. If we have to get a new member in this arch I hope its Cavendish(Very Unlikely). Kinda curious about Rebecca's past but her little stunt with Luffy was sad. Hopefully she does not receive the fruit. Luffy saving the fruit for later archs would be better idea or give it to Zoro.
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Old 2013-09-06, 07:16   Link #135
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
And yet your choice of words sounds very factual, not to mention you call out anyone who casts doubt on how "obvious" it is.
Will Luffy become Pirate King? Will Blackbeard be defeated? Will Dressrosa be freed from Doflamingo and so on?

Some things are so obvious that everybody knows it will happen because the Story demands them to happen because of the type of story and the flow of the story.

You see nobody arguing that Luffy will not become Pirate King and that Blackbeard is going to kill Luffy. Everybody who tries to argue that will be called out.

The same goes for Sabo being alive. Sabo is alive because he is. There is really no doubt about it even though we havenít seen him yet, the same as Luffy becoming Pirate King even though we havenít seen him become one yet.
The author has made it simple very obvious. Dragon coming back from watching the arrival of the World Noble with someone injured, the three sake cups at the grave of Ace(nobody expect the three brothers knew about it), Odas refusal to show Sabos face in the three brothers cover, his refusal to say that Sabo is dead.

Your only counter argument is that Oda might be a troll and that we havenít seen him yet.
You could argue the same way about Luffy becoming Pirate King but nobody really will.
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Old 2013-09-06, 07:24   Link #136
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Bartolomeo attacked the gladiator that was making fun of Luffy. He also saw Cavendish attack Luffy. There's a possibility that Bartolomeo might end up attacking Cavendish and send him straight to the dumpster before the block D tournament starts. Just like what he did to that Vice Admiral.
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Old 2013-09-06, 07:47   Link #137
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The author has made it simple very obvious. Dragon coming back from watching the arrival of the World Noble with someone injured, the three sake cups at the grave of Ace(nobody expect the three brothers knew about it), Odas refusal to show Sabos face in the three brothers cover, his refusal to say that Sabo is dead.
I didn't know about the cups. Thanks for bringing it up =) There goes the amnesia theory.
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Old 2013-09-06, 08:33   Link #138
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
But look we don't even know how strong moria was 10 years prior to fighting luffy . He was relatively weak when he fought against luffy and co and one of the weakest at marineford. He was most likely even weaker when fought kaido . Also don't forget rob lucci was kicking ass at 13 in new world without df powers ( side character relative to sabo), and actually people like brown beard were at new world. My point is moriah was probably a weak brown beard level pirate who understimated new world . This point is actually even touched upon by moria himself .
But any ways If you want to continue this discussion just send me a visitor pm. Cheers .
It's strongly implied that Moria was in his prime back when he fought Kaido. Over the years, he weakened considerably by not training/fighting himself and relying on others to do his dirty work. And going by power scaling, Sabo was roughly equivalent to Ace in strength when they were kids. And going by what we saw of Ace pre-skip, Ace is not Yonkou level (he's far from it in fact). Simply put, Sabo isn't strong enough to be Kaido (even accounting for his post-skip growth in strength). So you have this, combined with what everyone else has said to counter your theory.
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Old 2013-09-06, 09:44   Link #139
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So no...age wise it does not match. At the time Kaido and Moria had their rivalry Sabo was still living with his parents, Sabo met Ace and Luffy AFTER Moria lost his crew and then "died" AFTER Moria met Hogback and started making his zombie army.

With all due respect Whitemoon, you said I wasn't reading what you wrote but you just refuse to accept the math, numbers don't lie. What you are saying is illogical not only when referring to the timeline but also in terms of the power levels.

I believe it was you that talked about how "Theorists" are ridiculed by others...but some Theorists also have the bad habit of refusing to see what is in front of them and deny facts as it suits their theories. If you guys want respect and not be ridiculed, you could start with actually acknowledging counter arguments instead ignoring them, just saying "You're not reading what I'm writing" or repeating the same statement that has argued against as if it's absolute truth. There are actually people that like reading theories but also like to check the validity, not with the intent of ridiculing them but in order to see just how valid and possible they really are.

I'm not saying every theory is wrong nor am I saying that every theory with flaws is impossible. I'm also not saying that every theorist is the "La La La I can't hear you" type either...I'm just calling them like I see them.

...this is starting to sound like a Religion vs Science discussion >_>
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Old 2013-09-06, 09:55   Link #140
Whitemoon648
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Originally Posted by paradox13 View Post
Not directly replying to your post, but to your 'theory' in general.

Moria became a Shichibukai. He had a big reputation even before being defeated by Kaidou. He wasn't a 'Brownbeard' level pirate. I don't even know how you came up with that assumption. Brownbeard and Moria are on entirely different levels, and Luffy had a lot of help in defeating him. In fact, there are many who believe Moria was even more powerful 10 years ago than he is now (since he is so fat and lazy now).

Moria would not be appointed to the Shichibukai if he was defeated by a 10 year old. And a 13 year old Lucci raping random fodder is completely different from a 10 year old who had a few months of training defeating a shichibukai level pirate.

The problem with your 'theory' is that it doesn't make sense with the evidence presented to us in the manga. It is completely based in fantasy, hence why people are arguing against it. The logic you use is faulty (how can you equate a shichibukai being defeated and having his crew massacred by a child whose had a few months training with a government trained assassin child prodigy killing a bunch of no name fodder is beyond me). How does Sabo travel from East Blue all the way to the New World in a single year? On Dragon's ship? And Dragon just let a child leave on a whim? Obviously he had plans for him or else he wouldn't have rescued him (and according to you, allegedly trained him) in the first place. How can you equate Moria to Brownbeard when they are obviously worlds apart strength wise? There is nothing in your theory that makes sense.

Do you see the problem now?
I believe he became a shichibukai after he was defeated. Plus warlords don't have to be super strong ( buggy and Croc were both defeated by luffy who couldn't even use haki)

Plus about the 10 year old defeating Moriah, It doesn't have to make sense in a real world sort of sense. It just have to make sense in One piece world context/
rules sort of sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
It's strongly implied that Moria was in his prime back when he fought Kaido. Over the years, he weakened considerably by not training/fighting himself and relying on others to do his dirty work. And going by power scaling, Sabo was roughly equivalent to Ace in strength when they were kids. And going by what we saw of Ace pre-skip, Ace is not Yonkou level (he's far from it in fact). Simply put, Sabo isn't strong enough to be Kaido (even accounting for his post-skip growth in strength). So you have this, combined with what everyone else has said to counter your theory.
i don't think it's hinted that he became stronger. I already also gave my reasons as how he could become stronger. The whole point of him staying in paradise creating zombies was to become stronger overall.
Also Sabo didn't have to beat kaido directly. i already talked about how Gold D roger defeated Shiki or why Buggy hold a grudge against buggy. He could have achieved the feat in similar ways.

-----------------------

On another note, more directly storywise related, who else now think that Barto might actually end up fighting against the strawhats first before joining them ?

He would definitely be a great addition to straw-hats haha.
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